It is very common for people who are enthusiastic about space to act as if it is a model train set. They like to design their own architectures, pretending what they would do if they were ultimately in charge. Like the guy who gets excited because he's going to "put the miniature town over there... and the rail yard over there... and the water tower over there..." they get caught up in designing their own lunar landers and rockets and ISRU propellant stations and fuel depots. But it's all fantasy. The world doesn't work like that. For starters, rockets, spacecraft, and certainly architectures are not designed by individuals. They're designed by large teams of people with lots and lots of training. Just as a town is not assembled by a single person, a rocket is not developed by a single person, and anybody engaging in that kind of exercise is engaging in play acting.And just as importantly, these kinds of decisions--which are political, and social, and economic--are not made by single individuals. We don't have a space king who makes all these decisions in isolation. We have a bureaucracy that answers to an Office of Management and Budget that answers to political appointees who answer to the President and the Vice President. And we have a bureaucracy that has to get its budget approved by Congress. And as much as you may hate the President or hate Congress, they are democratically elected. They're not dictators. They represent the people.So, this is a model train set. It's a fun little diversion. But it is no different than playing with Legos.
Sure, a vision that doesn't deal with the reality that there is no Space King who can just get it all done, is flawed. But acting as though space is going to ever go anywhere without many people of vision is equally flawed.
Quote from: jongoff on 12/27/2010 10:06 pmSure, a vision that doesn't deal with the reality that there is no Space King who can just get it all done, is flawed. But acting as though space is going to ever go anywhere without many people of vision is equally flawed.I never wrote that we don't need people of vision. What we don't need are more fantasists describing how they would change everything if only they were placed in charge. (And dangnabbit! The world is so damned unfair that it hasn't recognized the brilliance of these people writing their manifestos, and appointed them king!)
Pick a piece that you can change and propose how to change it. *snip*Change is incremental. Anybody who doesn't understand that isn't dealing with reality.
They're designed by large teams of people with lots and lots of training.
If VSE is now refined to...
But it's all fantasy. The world doesn't work like that. For starters, rockets, spacecraft, and certainly architectures are not designed by individuals.
Quote from: Blackstar on 12/27/2010 03:00 amBut it's all fantasy. The world doesn't work like that. For starters, rockets, spacecraft, and certainly architectures are not designed by individuals.The visions of individuals such as Wernher Von Braun or Robert Zubrin have had a profound influence.
Quote from: Hop_David on 12/28/2010 01:14 pmThe visions of individuals such as Wernher Von Braun or Robert Zubrin have had a profound influence.But according to what you just said that should not matter because you seem to believe and want to imply that it is all controlled by "congress-critters with lots and lots of experience in procuring pork".
The visions of individuals such as Wernher Von Braun or Robert Zubrin have had a profound influence.
Quote from: OV-106 on 12/28/2010 01:22 pmQuote from: Hop_David on 12/28/2010 01:14 pmThe visions of individuals such as Wernher Von Braun or Robert Zubrin have had a profound influence.But according to what you just said that should not matter because you seem to believe and want to imply that it is all controlled by "congress-critters with lots and lots of experience in procuring pork". "Want to imply"? No sly implications, I'm laying my opinion out on the table: NASA is being controlled by congress-critters with lots and lots of experience in procuring pork.Does that mean people of vision don't matter? Absolutely false. People of vision can mobilize public opinion. And public opinion can disturb the complacency of politicians. So far as I can see, our present direction is an HLV to nowhere. Or maybe an HLV for NEO flags and footprints in (mumble, mumble) decades.When Spudis sets goals for an actual destination, Dwayne Day brands him fantasist. And Day's reason: he's an individual?! As I've mentioned, Wernher Von Braun was an individual and his visions weren't idle fantasies.
Individuals do matter and they matter right now within the agency. The problem I have is your attempt to imply they do not
Does that mean people of vision don't matter? Absolutely false. People of vision can mobilize public opinion. And public opinion can disturb the complacency of politicians.
because of "congress-critters" who secretly control
everything and the fact you don't want an HLV.
I like Spudis' paper.
Individuals do matter and they matter right now within the agency.
But it's all fantasy. The world doesn't work like that. For starters, rockets, spacecraft, and certainly architectures are not designed by individuals. They're designed by large teams of people with lots and lots of training.
I simply commented that these two posts seem to contradict themselves. In other words, according to you, individuals cannot matter, if large teams of "congress-critters" are designing everything.
Quote from: OV-106 on 12/28/2010 02:03 pmI like Spudis' paper.Then why are you defending Day when he says it's fantasy?
Quote from: OV-106 on 12/28/2010 05:38 pmI simply commented that these two posts seem to contradict themselves. In other words, according to you, individuals cannot matter, if large teams of "congress-critters" are designing everything.I do believe that, for the moment, pork barrel politics is dominating policy.I also believe individuals can influence congressmen.My two statements in no way contradict each other.
I did not even mention Mr. Day or "Blackstar"