Author Topic: SLS General Discussion Thread 3  (Read 310770 times)

Offline Lars-J

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SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #240 on: 10/19/2018 07:42 am »
My point with “worst of both worlds” wasn’t that it wouldn’t work to have F-1 powered boosters.

No instead the issue is shackling your self to a particular architecture/design. If you absolutely have to have a sustainer stage that goes almost all the way to orbit, then SRB boosters aren’t a terrible choice. But that’s not the only way to do things.

But that’s how all of SLS+Orion decision making has been. If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Virtually every decision has had a pre-determined outcome: If at all possible do it like Shuttle. If not, do it like Apollo.
« Last Edit: 10/19/2018 07:44 am by Lars-J »

Offline ncb1397

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #241 on: 10/19/2018 07:49 am »

But that’s how all of SLS+Orion decision making has been. If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Virtually every decision has had a pre-determined outcome: If at all possible do it like Shuttle. If not, do it like Apollo.

Shuttle - Fuel Cells
Apollo - Fuel Cells
Orion - Solar Arrays ?????

Offline SWGlassPit

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #242 on: 10/19/2018 03:42 pm »

But that’s how all of SLS+Orion decision making has been. If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Virtually every decision has had a pre-determined outcome: If at all possible do it like Shuttle. If not, do it like Apollo.

Shuttle - Fuel Cells
Apollo - Fuel Cells
Orion - Solar Arrays ?????

I mean, solar arrays are hugely more efficient today than they were even twenty years ago, so why not eliminate the idea of electricity as a consumable?  It's not like solar arrays in space is cutting edge technology.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #243 on: 10/19/2018 04:45 pm »

But that’s how all of SLS+Orion decision making has been. If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Virtually every decision has had a pre-determined outcome: If at all possible do it like Shuttle. If not, do it like Apollo.

Shuttle - Fuel Cells
Apollo - Fuel Cells
Orion - Solar Arrays ?????

Point taken  ;), there are certainly exceptions but my point was more to major architectural elements.

Offline niwax

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #244 on: 10/20/2018 12:47 am »

But that’s how all of SLS+Orion decision making has been. If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Virtually every decision has had a pre-determined outcome: If at all possible do it like Shuttle. If not, do it like Apollo.

Shuttle - Fuel Cells
Apollo - Fuel Cells
Orion - Solar Arrays ?????

I mean, solar arrays are hugely more efficient today than they were even twenty years ago, so why not eliminate the idea of electricity as a consumable?  It's not like solar arrays in space is cutting edge technology.

Although they will be described as cutting edge in the report outlining why this project is worth eleven digit $ amounts. First use on a NASA capsule! /s
« Last Edit: 10/20/2018 12:34 pm by niwax »
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Offline speedevil

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #245 on: 10/20/2018 10:05 am »

But that’s how all of SLS+Orion decision making has been. If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Virtually every decision has had a pre-determined outcome: If at all possible do it like Shuttle. If not, do it like Apollo.

Shuttle - Fuel Cells
Apollo - Fuel Cells
Orion - Solar Arrays ?????

I mean, solar arrays are hugely more efficient today than they were even twenty years ago, so why not eliminate the idea of electricity as a consumable?  It's not like solar arrays in space is cutting edge technology.

Although they will be described as cutting edge in the report outlining why this project is worth leven digit $ amount. First use on a NASA capsule! /s

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/flyers/orion.htm - I note.
That list of spinoffs for SLS and Orion looks mighty thin.

Offline SWGlassPit

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #246 on: 10/22/2018 03:31 pm »

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/flyers/orion.htm - I note.
That list of spinoffs for SLS and Orion looks mighty thin.

To be fair, it takes time for technology to spin off.  Not really fair to judge the spinoff list for vehicles that haven't flown.

Offline clongton

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #247 on: 10/22/2018 06:26 pm »

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/flyers/orion.htm - I note.
That list of spinoffs for SLS and Orion looks mighty thin.

To be fair, it takes time for technology to spin off.  Not really fair to judge the spinoff list for vehicles that haven't flown.

Except that in the case of SLS it's designed around 40-year old technology and it is unlikely that there will be any more spinoffs that haven't already been done. Of course NASA PR is very likely to make a huge deal about some improvement to an old spinoff just like they have a party with back-slapping and bonuses every time somebody welds a seam.
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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #248 on: 10/22/2018 07:17 pm »
https://spinoff.nasa.gov/flyers/orion.htm - I note.
That list of spinoffs for SLS and Orion looks mighty thin.

You'd think that after spending ~$30B that there would be more than 8 items on that list - and one of them is just a charging algorithm for an undefined type of battery.

Some of the items on the list (or maybe all of them) are just incremental improvements to things are already have lots of innovation being done across their respective industries.

For instance:

- "Procedure-Authoring Tool Improves Safety on Oil Rigs" seems like something that NASA would have been doing for the ISS, not specifically for the Orion.

- "Advanced Manufacturing Techniques Create Better Nanotubes" is an area that is filled with people working on nanotubes. And maybe they have helped to push the field forward, but does it merit the "spinoff" moniker?

There is lots of government R&D funding that helps industry, and no doubt industry is getting something from the SLS and Orion programs that will be useful for other applications, but I think this list confirms that the SLS and Orion are not really "innovative", just "iterative" - and there is nothing wrong with that, just that our expectations should be set accordingly.
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Offline Proponent

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #249 on: 10/26/2018 08:29 pm »
That list of spinoffs for SLS and Orion looks mighty thin.

And that seems about right: Shuttle-derived heavy lift was supposed to be, as Coastal Ron puts it, iterative, not innovative.  Supporters characterized it as just re-arranging the Shuttle stack.  Mike Griffin: "As NASA administrator, I already own a heavy lifter."  In fact, NASA seems to be reaping the worst of both worlds, with "iterative" capabilities and "innovative" costs and delays.

Offline rayleighscatter

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #250 on: 10/27/2018 01:59 am »

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/flyers/orion.htm - I note.
That list of spinoffs for SLS and Orion looks mighty thin.

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/pdf/Apollo_Flyer.pdf
So does the Apollo program. More than 200 billion in today's money and they can only come up with 8 things. Several of which like freeze-dried foods pre-date the program anyway.

But I'm sure most people here are smart enough to evaluate a source and can identify it as a public relations handout and won't be prone to feeding an echo chamber.


....right?

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Offline Tulse

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #252 on: 10/31/2018 02:19 pm »
What's the x-axis?

Offline freddo411

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #253 on: 10/31/2018 02:30 pm »

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/flyers/orion.htm - I note.
That list of spinoffs for SLS and Orion looks mighty thin.

https://spinoff.nasa.gov/pdf/Apollo_Flyer.pdf
So does the Apollo program. More than 200 billion in today's money and they can only come up with 8 things. Several of which like freeze-dried foods pre-date the program anyway.

But I'm sure most people here are smart enough to evaluate a source and can identify it as a public relations handout and won't be prone to feeding an echo chamber.


....right?

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It's both a spinoff and a reason SLS is delayed!

Offline Lars-J

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #254 on: 10/31/2018 04:03 pm »
What's the x-axis?

My question as well, but given that they are equally spaced points, I assume that the X-axis is whenever a new estimate was given. So the graph is a bit misleading, but the message isn't wrong... The launch date isn't getting closer like it should.

Offline Tulse

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #255 on: 10/31/2018 04:20 pm »
Nah, I get the message of the graph -- it's just the inaccurate presentation that annoys me as an admitted data viz geek.  (And, to be honest, I would generally hope for better from a technically-inclined "Senior Space Editor" at Ars.)

Offline John Santos

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #256 on: 10/31/2018 04:46 pm »
Nah, I get the message of the graph -- it's just the inaccurate presentation that annoys me as an admitted data viz geek.  (And, to be honest, I would generally hope for better from a technically-inclined "Senior Space Editor" at Ars.)
It's a horrible graph designed to appeal to mathematical illiterates.  A friend used to blog every week about Bad Chart Thursdays.  Too bad she isn't blogging any more; this would have been perfect fodder.

Online nevareth

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #257 on: 10/31/2018 04:51 pm »
The X axis does not really need to be labeled.  It is date and can easily be inferred from the blue line on the Y axis.  There are six data points across approximately 7 years (2011 to 2018).
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Offline ncb1397

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #258 on: 10/31/2018 04:54 pm »
The X axis does not really need to be labeled.  It is date and can easily be inferred from the blue line on the Y axis.  There are six data points across approximately 7 years (2011 to 2018).

If that was the case, the blue line would be a strait line as the Y axis for the blue line is also the date. Don't think these are NASA official timelines as it indicates the launch date was middle of 2020 at the beginning of the year, but NASA was still saying December 2019. It was only more recently and later in 2018 that they were saying December 2019-June 2020.
« Last Edit: 10/31/2018 04:57 pm by ncb1397 »

Online AnalogMan

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 3
« Reply #259 on: 10/31/2018 05:17 pm »
Just for fun I replotted Eric Berger's data in a different way.

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