Author Topic: Fusion with space related aspects thread  (Read 949445 times)

Offline RON_P

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • Liked: 46
  • Likes Given: 30
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3620 on: 03/24/2022 09:58 pm »
New video from TAE .
It also seems their dates have again shifted to the right and new sanctions on Russia will make it even worse ( their neutral injectors are made in the Budker institute in Novosibirsk https://mipse.eecs.umich.edu/files/oltp_2021-07-27_Smirnov.pdf ) .
https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML2109/ML21090A288.pdf in this very recent NRC presentation full scale boron-11 DEMO in 2028  but in the video it's already 2030+ .
« Last Edit: 03/25/2022 01:10 am by RON_P »

Online edzieba

  • Virtual Realist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4746
  • United Kingdom
  • Liked: 6875
  • Likes Given: 36
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3621 on: 03/25/2022 10:30 am »
Damn Helion fusion Q would be VERY low less than 2 !!!
They don't need more than that. I have explained that several times before. The super efficient energy recovery changes everything for them. The fusion reactions only need to make up the 5% loss per round trip to have wall plug break even. People are getting hung up on the efficiency of their energy recovery for some reason that is beyond me. It is not that hard to image this working.
They need the Q >1 for 50 MWe though. Also note that this Q is for D-D/D-He3, which requires a somewhat higher triple product than it would be D-T, though they are mitigating some of that with the high ion- to electron- temperature ratio.
So it will be a little higher than Q~2 for D-T would be, but not as much as it would be with an equilibrium plasma like in a Tokamak.
This has been discussed upthread: Q<1 is not possible with net energy production, as while some energy may be recoverable, it is not possible to recover all thermal energy dumped into the plasma (for the same reason you can't perfectly recover the energy that goes into heating any other object: thermodynamics allows no free lunches).

Offline Elmar Moelzer

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3589
  • Liked: 795
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3622 on: 03/25/2022 11:41 am »
This has been discussed upthread: Q<1 is not possible with net energy production, as while some energy may be recoverable, it is not possible to recover all thermal energy dumped into the plasma (for the same reason you can't perfectly recover the energy that goes into heating any other object: thermodynamics allows no free lunches).
It has been discussed, but I have to disagree with your assessment of this.
95% is not "perfectly" mind you. It is more similar to the regenerative braking in an electric car, but without friction and with near perfect magnets.
Scott Hsu and Sam Wurzel of ARPA-E have also picked up on this in the latest version of their Break Even paper:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2105.10954.pdf


Offline su27k

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6079
  • Liked: 8649
  • Likes Given: 840
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3623 on: 04/06/2022 02:51 am »
Not sure how credible this is, sounds too good to be true: Blue Origin vets unveil startup seeking small solution to massive challenge of fusion energy

Quote from: geekwire.com
As Avalanche Energy founders Robin Langtry and Brian Riordan have been grinding through the development of their fusion technology, they keep expecting to hit a wall.

The team is taking a less conventional approach to fusion energy, building a small-scale solution and foregoing the outrageous temperatures and ultra powerful magnets required by other systems. The simpler, seemingly elegant approach has left them wondering if it’s possible that no one else has developed or patented the design — or done the research showing it won’t work.

The wall, so far, has not materialized. But positive developments have. The startup has raised a $5 million seed round, secured a Patent Cooperation Treaty (PCT) International Patent, and recently emerged from stealth mode. A few weeks ago, Langtry and Riordan generated their first neutrons via fusion.

Offline bad_astra

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1920
  • Liked: 313
  • Likes Given: 545
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3624 on: 04/06/2022 03:57 pm »
Not really related to ''normal'' fusion but still - any thoughts ?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/lattice-confinement-fusion
Also from the same NASA group on their ''Lattice Confinement Fusion'' study in ARPA-E LENR conference ( yeah hhh  :o )
https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021LENR_workshop_Dudzinski.pdf

This is cold fusion by a different name.
I still hold out some hope for something (working) but I am in a minority of both my friends and nearly every scientist in the world.
There seem to be some rumors of the Anthropocene Institute
offering a $2 million prize for a "simple/reproducible LENR experiment."
https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg120557.html
Would be great but I doubt it is true.

Could you take the cold fusion LENR wishful thinking somewhere else pls?

The LENR discussion can be moved to the following threads in New Physics section:
ARPA-E LENR workshop
NASA Langley confirms they are working to confirm the Widom/Larsen LENR

The LCF experiment is not cold fusion nor does anyone involved with it, as far as I can tell, is claiming it to be LENR or validating Widom-Larsen theory. If it is possible to generate and study very small plasmoids and fusion processes without massive infrastructure, that alone would make the experiment worthwhile, even if it never has much use as a power source. It could find use as a neutron source, much like a Farnsworth fusor.

I find it more interesting the reactionary responses to cast this kind of work into whatever Gehenna is most readily available.
 
"Contact Light" -Buzz Aldrin

Online edzieba

  • Virtual Realist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4746
  • United Kingdom
  • Liked: 6875
  • Likes Given: 36
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3625 on: 04/07/2022 09:43 am »
Not really related to ''normal'' fusion but still - any thoughts ?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/lattice-confinement-fusion
Also from the same NASA group on their ''Lattice Confinement Fusion'' study in ARPA-E LENR conference ( yeah hhh  :o )
https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021LENR_workshop_Dudzinski.pdf

This is cold fusion by a different name.
I still hold out some hope for something (working) but I am in a minority of both my friends and nearly every scientist in the world.
There seem to be some rumors of the Anthropocene Institute
offering a $2 million prize for a "simple/reproducible LENR experiment."
https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg120557.html
Would be great but I doubt it is true.

Could you take the cold fusion LENR wishful thinking somewhere else pls?

The LENR discussion can be moved to the following threads in New Physics section:
ARPA-E LENR workshop
NASA Langley confirms they are working to confirm the Widom/Larsen LENR

The LCF experiment is not cold fusion nor does anyone involved with it, as far as I can tell, is claiming it to be LENR or validating Widom-Larsen theory. If it is possible to generate and study very small plasmoids and fusion processes without massive infrastructure, that alone would make the experiment worthwhile, even if it never has much use as a power source. It could find use as a neutron source, much like a Farnsworth fusor.

I find it more interesting the reactionary responses to cast this kind of work into whatever Gehenna is most readily available.
It's hard to claim it 'isn't cold fusion' with a straight face with study authors attending the International Conference on Cold Fusion.

Offline ppnl

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 295
  • Liked: 187
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3626 on: 04/09/2022 02:49 pm »


The LCF experiment is not cold fusion nor does anyone involved with it, as far as I can tell, is claiming it to be LENR or validating Widom-Larsen theory. If it is possible to generate and study very small plasmoids and fusion processes without massive infrastructure, that alone would make the experiment worthwhile, even if it never has much use as a power source. It could find use as a neutron source, much like a Farnsworth fusor.

I find it more interesting the reactionary responses to cast this kind of work into whatever Gehenna is most readily available.

You can't say that LCF isn't cold fusion because there is no theory about how cold fusion would work if it works at all. The LENR name was adopted simply as a way to put lipstick on a pig. Nobody knows that it is a low energy process in the unlikely case that it is a process at all.

Both cold fusion and LCF are motivated by the same idea that the complex environment of a metal lattice might make fusion easier. This seems profoundly improbable on theoretical grounds but not dead stop impossible. Just think of superconductivity for example. Who would have predicted that on theoretical grounds?

For LCF to progress one of two things need to happen. Either a convincing theoretical framework or a convincing experiment. Cold fusion proponents claimed to have that convincing experiment. When that fell apart the larger scientific community lost all trust in the scientists doing cold fusion. The LCF people need to avoid losing that trust.

Talking about the "reactionary responses" is probably not the best way to keep that trust. Anybody remember Jed Rothwell's "Hot Fusion (sorry, need to stop here for a second and just say that I have to use stupid words to get my point across. I know that means I must have a weak argument, but that's why I use bad words)."? Yeah, I wonder what he is doing today.

In any case it will be hard for LCF to escape its association with Pierre-Marie Robitaille AKA sky scholar. Now there is some prime crack-pottery.

Offline nacnud

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2691
  • Liked: 978
  • Likes Given: 347
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3627 on: 04/09/2022 05:35 pm »
First light fusion has a new video up, they use a projectile based approach to inertial confinement that seem promising.



An explanation in words, if that helps https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/our-approach
« Last Edit: 04/09/2022 05:37 pm by nacnud »

Offline ppnl

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 295
  • Liked: 187
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3628 on: 04/09/2022 09:21 pm »
I don't mind you changing my post to soften the language. But people should know that it isn't my language. I'm quoting Jed Rothwell here. The harshness was kinda my point. LCF people need to avoid going down the same rabbit hole.

Offline su27k

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6079
  • Liked: 8649
  • Likes Given: 840
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3629 on: 05/17/2022 04:10 am »
https://twitter.com/FLFusion/status/1526194255533842433

Quote
Our work on projectile fusion is underpinned by rigorous mathematical modelling and simulation studies. You can read more about our simulation tools here:

https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/simulations

#fusion #simulation

Offline Yiosie

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 421
  • Liked: 571
  • Likes Given: 65
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3630 on: 05/17/2022 08:51 pm »
Avalanche energy  ??? a scam or serious people ?
https://www.avalanche.energy/index.html
Quote
Avalanche is a VC-backed, fusion energy start-up based in Seattle, WA. We are designing, testing and building micro-fusion reactors that you can hold in your hand.
I can't say definitively that this is a fraud, but a handheld fusion generator is so far beyond the known, and so far into sci-fi territory, that I'm calling BS until shown otherwise.

Well, looks like the DIU thinks Avalanche Energy has something going for it:

DIU selects nuclear-powered spacecraft designs for 2027 demonstrations [dated May 17]

Quote from: SpaceNews
The Defense Innovation Unit announced May 17 it selected Ultra Safe Nuclear Corp. and Avalanche Energy to develop small nuclear-powered spacecraft for in-space demonstrations planned for 2027.

<snip>

The selection of Ultra Safe Nuclear and Avalanche comes just seven months after DIU issued a solicitation for small nuclear-powered engines for space missions beyond Earth orbit.

Seattle-based Ultra Safe Nuclear will demonstrate a chargeable, encapsulated nuclear radioisotope battery called EmberCore.

Avalanche Energy, a venture-backed fusion energy startup also based in Seattle, developed a handheld micro-fusion reactor called Orbitron. “Compared to other fusion concepts, Orbitron devices are promising for space applications as they may be scaled down in size and enable their use as both a propulsion and power source,” said DIU.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3589
  • Liked: 795
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3631 on: 05/18/2022 03:17 pm »
Avalanche energy  ??? a scam or serious people ?
https://www.avalanche.energy/index.html
Quote
Avalanche is a VC-backed, fusion energy start-up based in Seattle, WA. We are designing, testing and building micro-fusion reactors that you can hold in your hand.
I can't say definitively that this is a fraud, but a handheld fusion generator is so far beyond the known, and so far into sci-fi territory, that I'm calling BS until shown otherwise.

Well, looks like the DIU thinks Avalanche Energy has something going for it:

DIU selects nuclear-powered spacecraft designs for 2027 demonstrations [dated May 17]

Quote from: SpaceNews
The Defense Innovation Unit announced May 17 it selected Ultra Safe Nuclear Corp. and Avalanche Energy to develop small nuclear-powered spacecraft for in-space demonstrations planned for 2027.

<snip>

The selection of Ultra Safe Nuclear and Avalanche comes just seven months after DIU issued a solicitation for small nuclear-powered engines for space missions beyond Earth orbit.

Seattle-based Ultra Safe Nuclear will demonstrate a chargeable, encapsulated nuclear radioisotope battery called EmberCore.

Avalanche Energy, a venture-backed fusion energy startup also based in Seattle, developed a handheld micro-fusion reactor called Orbitron. “Compared to other fusion concepts, Orbitron devices are promising for space applications as they may be scaled down in size and enable their use as both a propulsion and power source,” said DIU.
I remain very skeptical of their claims, but would be very happy if they indeed had something.

Offline RON_P

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • Liked: 46
  • Likes Given: 30
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3632 on: 05/19/2022 12:11 pm »
It's sad DIU didn't choose Helicity Space their science and team is much more solid .

Offline Elmar Moelzer

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3589
  • Liked: 795
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3633 on: 05/20/2022 04:12 am »
It's sad DIU didn't choose Helicity Space their science and team is much more solid .
I agree. I like Helicity and their approach.

Offline RON_P

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • Liked: 46
  • Likes Given: 30
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3634 on: 05/24/2022 09:50 am »
ZAP energy from ARPA-E

Offline Elmar Moelzer

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3589
  • Liked: 795
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3635 on: 06/23/2022 06:48 pm »
Quote
Last week Zap Energy marked a critical engineering milestone by creating the first plasmas — the hot, dense form of matter found in stars — in FuZE-Q, the company's new prototype designed to reach the long-sought target of Q=1, where the process of nuclear fusion inside a plasma yields more energy than was consumed to create it.

https://www.zapenergyinc.com/news/first-plasmas-fuzeq-series-c

Offline anonymous

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 246
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3636 on: 06/27/2022 09:59 pm »
An article about Zap from the New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/22/technology/fusion-zap-energy.html

Quote
If their system proves workable, the Zap researchers say, it will be orders of magnitude less expensive than competing systems based on magnet and laser confinement. It is expected to cost roughly the same as traditional nuclear power.

Offline anonymous

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 246
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3637 on: 06/27/2022 10:22 pm »
An article in Science on the tritium problem for D-T fusion:

https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started

The first part of the article worries about running out of tritium for subsequent DEMO reactors because ITER will eat up all the tritium.

The second part of the article deals with the much more fundamental issue that tritium breeding in D-T fusion reactors may not be able to generate enough tritium to sustain themselves.

Quote
Their analysis found that with current technology, largely defined by ITER, breeding blankets could, at best, produce 15% more tritium than a reactor consumes. But the study concluded the figure is more likely to be 5%—a worrisomely small margin.

One critical factor the authors identified is reactor downtime, when tritium breeding stops but the isotope continues to decay. Sustainability can only be guaranteed if the reactor runs more than 50% of the time

Offline anonymous

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 246
  • Liked: 16
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3638 on: 06/27/2022 10:54 pm »
Commonwealth Fusion Systems isn't the only spin-off from MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center. Quaise Energy is another, but it isn't working on fusion. It's using gyrotron technology developed for fusion to try to revolutionise geothermal energy instead:

Fusion tech is set to unlock near-limitless ultra-deep geothermal energy
https://newatlas.com/energy/quaise-deep-geothermal-millimeter-wave-drill/

The fundamental problem with solar and wind as energy sources isn't intermittency, as that can be solved with energy storage technology, but that they are diffuse energy sources that would occupy very large amounts of space to supply all our energy. If it can be made to work, ultra-deep geothermal could be used almost anywhere and provide concentrated, dispatchable energy. It could do the job of fusion, but without the radiation.

Quote
Indeed, if this technology works as expected (and the crust doesn't find new ways to fight back against our intrusions), and the economics stack up, this new use for gyrotrons could ironically end up putting fusion reactors out of a job.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3589
  • Liked: 795
  • Likes Given: 1030
Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3639 on: 06/30/2022 04:24 pm »
An article in Science on the tritium problem for D-T fusion:

https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started

The first part of the article worries about running out of tritium for subsequent DEMO reactors because ITER will eat up all the tritium.

The second part of the article deals with the much more fundamental issue that tritium breeding in D-T fusion reactors may not be able to generate enough tritium to sustain themselves.

Quote
Their analysis found that with current technology, largely defined by ITER, breeding blankets could, at best, produce 15% more tritium than a reactor consumes. But the study concluded the figure is more likely to be 5%—a worrisomely small margin.

One critical factor the authors identified is reactor downtime, when tritium breeding stops but the isotope continues to decay. Sustainability can only be guaranteed if the reactor runs more than 50% of the time

This article is (unfortunately) making the rounds and I have a lot of issues with it.

1. ITER is not current technology. It is past technology.

2. DEMO (and they are mostly talking about EU- DEMO here, other governments are already pursuing smaller designs for their DEMOs) will never be built. Fusion power plants based on EU-DEMO would never be economically viable.

3. None of the fusion startups that I am aware of are planning to build machines that large. The largest design that I have good information on is ARC by Commonwealth Fusion Systems. It will have a Tritium inventory of 50 to 90 grams which is comparable to JET.
Those smaller machines can use liquid blankets. ARC and some other designs will be completely immersed in liquid. The first walls of smaller machines have less surface area and thus retain less Tritium. And since they can be thinner, they capture fewer neutrons and more can reach the Lithium blanket.
Designs by General Fusion and ZAP do not even have a wall between the plasma and the lithium at all.

These smaller machines can also do D-D bootstrapping if there is not enough Tritium available for startup or if for some reason their breeding ratio is off by a few %. That means they will run on Deuterium for a while until they have replenished their Tritium inventory. Depending on the design, some of them would still be self sustaining during that time, but would likely not be able to deliver electricity to the grid.
ZAP would only need a month of D-D bootstrapping to have enough Tritium for startup (starting from zero Tritium in the inventory). Larger machines like ARC it would likely take a bit longer, but it should still be manageable.

And that is not even talking about some of the alternative designs that could be even smaller and a few of them do not even need Tritium. In the case of Helion Energy, Tritium is a byproduct that they can sell to operators of D-T fusion plants or trade for any He3 inventory from decayed Tritium that these operators might have.
« Last Edit: 06/30/2022 04:34 pm by Elmar Moelzer »

 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement SkyTale Software GmbH
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1