Author Topic: Fusion with space related aspects thread  (Read 949443 times)

Offline RON_P

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3600 on: 02/25/2022 08:07 pm »
Avalanche energy  ??? a scam or serious people ?
https://www.avalanche.energy/index.html
Quote
Avalanche is a VC-backed, fusion energy start-up based in Seattle, WA. We are designing, testing and building micro-fusion reactors that you can hold in your hand.
I can't say definitively that this is a fraud, but a handheld fusion generator is so far beyond the known, and so far into sci-fi territory, that I'm calling BS until shown otherwise.
Well there was a small DARPA program to create a VERY compact fusion reactor more than a decade ago .
https://www.wired.com/2009/07/darpas-handheld-nuclear-fusion-reactor/ .

Offline cdebuhr

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3601 on: 02/25/2022 08:34 pm »
Avalanche energy  ??? a scam or serious people ?
https://www.avalanche.energy/index.html
Quote
Avalanche is a VC-backed, fusion energy start-up based in Seattle, WA. We are designing, testing and building micro-fusion reactors that you can hold in your hand.
I can't say definitively that this is a fraud, but a handheld fusion generator is so far beyond the known, and so far into sci-fi territory, that I'm calling BS until shown otherwise.
Well there was a small DARPA program to create a VERY compact fusion reactor more than a decade ago .
https://www.wired.com/2009/07/darpas-handheld-nuclear-fusion-reactor/ .
Oh yeah - I think I remember reading about that back in the day.  That said, DARPA investigates all sorts of things, including some truly nutty ones, in hopes of hitting the occasional home run.  Just because DARPA put a bit of money into something doesn't make it real.  Sometimes I think they announce "out there" projects just to freak out potential adversaries and send them on a wild goose chase.  I stand by previous comment.

Offline randomly

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3602 on: 02/26/2022 04:51 am »
Just reading through their website sets off all kinds of red flags for me. I'm unfortunately painfully familiar with the style of Incorrect that it is.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3603 on: 02/26/2022 08:00 am »
Just reading through their website sets off all kinds of red flags for me. I'm unfortunately painfully familiar with the style of Incorrect that it is.
I am a fusion proponent and even I have to raise some serious doubts. So do people in the fusion industry that I have passed this by. Seems to violate a number of physics rules like cross section, neutron production, ion gyro orbit, etc...

Offline aceshigh

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3604 on: 02/27/2022 12:17 am »
Avalanche energy  ??? a scam or serious people ?
https://www.avalanche.energy/index.html

Its serious... serious scam

Offline RON_P

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3605 on: 03/02/2022 03:13 pm »
https://phys.org/news/2022-02-fusion-electricity.html
Quote
The U.S. fusion community has actively called for an immediate design effort for a cost-effective pilot plant to generate electricity in the 2040s. This effort and related community recommendations are documented in the 2020 report of the Fusion Energy Sciences Advisory Committee entitled "Powering the Future: Fusion & Plasmas."

Now Jon Menard, deputy director for research at the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)'s Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory (PPPL), has led a detailed study of the scientific and engineering challenges that such a pilot plant will face. The study also defines performance requirements for a complementary research facility that the community is proposing to close key gaps to a pilot plant.

'Rigor and insight'

"Jon has driven forward ideas to bring down the cost and scale of fusion with his usual rigor and insight," said PPPL Director Steve Cowley. "As we accelerate the delivery of fusion this work becomes more and more important."

The dedicated research facility would have a sustained high-power density (SHPD) capability to address the challenges of integrating the pilot plant core and the edge exhaust region. This task has been identified by the community and embodied in a proposed new tokamak facility named the "EXhaust and Confinement Integration Tokamak Experiment (EXCITE)."

A SHPD-EXCITE device could complement and inform the pilot plant and smooth its operation, said Menard, lead author of a comprehensive analysis in the journal Nuclear Fusion that projects the performance of varied pilot plant designs. "The paper wants to make an apples-to-apples comparison between all options," he said.

The analysis focuses on fusion facilities called "tokamaks" ranging from compact cored-apple shaped devices like the National Spherical Torus Experiment-Upgrade (NSTX-U) at PPPL to broader and more widely used doughnut-shaped facilities. The research device would serve as a satellite to test ideas during the pilot plant's construction and operation. "It would be overlapping," Menard said.

Vast energy

Fusion, which powers the sun and stars, produces vast energy by combining light elements in the form of plasma, the hot, charged state of matter composed of free electrons and atomic nuclei, or ions. Scientists around the world are seeking to recreate this power for a safe and clean source of energy to produce the world's electricity.

The proposed pilot plant will need to address the delivery of heat from the high-density plasma core to the exhaust region at the tokamak's edge. "In a high-power compact pilot plant, this heat would be significant and we want to make sure we understand how to handle it properly," Menard said.

PPPL research has produced differing models of the impact of the heat. "No one knows for sure which model is correct and there's as yet no machine to test this on," Menard said. "So the community has proposed that a research facility be built to investigate these key questions."

Other topics to be developed in the compact pilot plant include the need to integrate a largely self-driven plasma current with the high-density plasma core. Today's tokamaks use a central magnet called a "solenoid" to produce the current, which creates a magnetic field to bottle up the plasma so that fusion reactions can take place. However, there would be less room for a solenoid in the compact pilot plant the community envisions, producing the need for an internally generated plasma current.

The design and construction of the EXCITE facility will not necessarily delay the arrival of the pilot plant so long as both facilities are flexible enough. "These facilities should not be completely serial but should be overlapping and their roles should be well-defined," Menard said. "The smaller tokamak could be used to test ideas faster and more cheaply without dealing with the nuclear environment that the pilot plant would focus on."

Studies for ITER

Studies underway for ITER, which is being built to demonstrate the feasibility of harvesting fusion power, provide examples of collaborative research relationships, Menard said. "The entire world tokamak program is continuing to do R&D to figure out how best to operate ITER," he said. The international tokamak is scheduled to start operating in 2025 and to move to full power operations in 2035.

Menard noted that a particularly relevant example of collaboration is the implementation of the fully metallic "ITER-like wall" in the Joint European Torus (JET) facility in the United Kingdom over a decade ago to learn how to operate ITER with such a wall prior to ITER operation. JET recently achieved a record fusion energy with the ITER-like wall after extensive experimentation and operational development that should ultimately accelerate research on ITER.

Meanwhile, the U.S. fusion community seeks to pursue innovative ways to refine the design and key features of the proposed pilot plant that would generate low capital-cost electricity in the 2040s—a demanding task that calls for resolving major gaps in the projected fusion facility. "The next step is to confront all the challenges that the pilot plant will face," Menard said.

Offline RON_P

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3606 on: 03/02/2022 03:24 pm »
Not really related to ''normal'' fusion but still - any thoughts ?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/lattice-confinement-fusion
Also from the same NASA group on their ''Lattice Confinement Fusion'' study in ARPA-E LENR conference ( yeah hhh  :o )
https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021LENR_workshop_Dudzinski.pdf

Online rsdavis9

Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3607 on: 03/02/2022 03:35 pm »
Not really related to ''normal'' fusion but still - any thoughts ?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/lattice-confinement-fusion
Also from the same NASA group on their ''Lattice Confinement Fusion'' study in ARPA-E LENR conference ( yeah hhh  :o )
https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021LENR_workshop_Dudzinski.pdf

This is cold fusion by a different name.
I still hold out some hope for something (working) but I am in a minority of both my friends and nearly every scientist in the world.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline Iggyz

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3608 on: 03/02/2022 06:19 pm »
Not really related to ''normal'' fusion but still - any thoughts ?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/lattice-confinement-fusion
Also from the same NASA group on their ''Lattice Confinement Fusion'' study in ARPA-E LENR conference ( yeah hhh  :o )
https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021LENR_workshop_Dudzinski.pdf

This is cold fusion by a different name.
I still hold out some hope for something (working) but I am in a minority of both my friends and nearly every scientist in the world.
There seem to be some rumors of the Anthropocene Institute
offering a $2 million prize for a "simple/reproducible LENR experiment."
https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg120557.html
Would be great but I doubt it is true.

Online leovinus

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3609 on: 03/02/2022 08:06 pm »
Not really related to ''normal'' fusion but still - any thoughts ?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/lattice-confinement-fusion
Also from the same NASA group on their ''Lattice Confinement Fusion'' study in ARPA-E LENR conference ( yeah hhh  :o )
https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021LENR_workshop_Dudzinski.pdf

This is cold fusion by a different name.
I still hold out some hope for something (working) but I am in a minority of both my friends and nearly every scientist in the world.
There seem to be some rumors of the Anthropocene Institute
offering a $2 million prize for a "simple/reproducible LENR experiment."
https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg120557.html
Would be great but I doubt it is true.

Could you take the cold fusion LENR wishful thinking somewhere else pls?

Offline RON_P

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3610 on: 03/02/2022 09:45 pm »
Not really related to ''normal'' fusion but still - any thoughts ?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/lattice-confinement-fusion
Also from the same NASA group on their ''Lattice Confinement Fusion'' study in ARPA-E LENR conference ( yeah hhh  :o )
https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021LENR_workshop_Dudzinski.pdf

This is cold fusion by a different name.
I still hold out some hope for something (working) but I am in a minority of both my friends and nearly every scientist in the world.
There seem to be some rumors of the Anthropocene Institute
offering a $2 million prize for a "simple/reproducible LENR experiment."
https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg120557.html
Would be great but I doubt it is true.

Could you take the cold fusion LENR wishful thinking somewhere else pls?
Well you are right but this is a NASA team and  not some garage weirdos .

Offline su27k

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3611 on: 03/03/2022 02:08 am »
Not really related to ''normal'' fusion but still - any thoughts ?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/lattice-confinement-fusion
Also from the same NASA group on their ''Lattice Confinement Fusion'' study in ARPA-E LENR conference ( yeah hhh  :o )
https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021LENR_workshop_Dudzinski.pdf

This is cold fusion by a different name.
I still hold out some hope for something (working) but I am in a minority of both my friends and nearly every scientist in the world.
There seem to be some rumors of the Anthropocene Institute
offering a $2 million prize for a "simple/reproducible LENR experiment."
https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg120557.html
Would be great but I doubt it is true.

Could you take the cold fusion LENR wishful thinking somewhere else pls?

The LENR discussion can be moved to the following threads in New Physics section:
ARPA-E LENR workshop
NASA Langley confirms they are working to confirm the Widom/Larsen LENR

Offline tea monster

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3612 on: 03/04/2022 09:02 am »
Well you are right but this is a NASA team and  not some garage weirdos .

Just to remind people that this is exactly how the EM Drive got it's start and it's legacy is still haunting this forum.

Offline philw1776

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3613 on: 03/04/2022 03:58 pm »
Not really related to ''normal'' fusion but still - any thoughts ?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/lattice-confinement-fusion
Also from the same NASA group on their ''Lattice Confinement Fusion'' study in ARPA-E LENR conference ( yeah hhh  :o )
https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021LENR_workshop_Dudzinski.pdf

This is cold fusion by a different name.
I still hold out some hope for something (working) but I am in a minority of both my friends and nearly every scientist in the world.

Too funny.  We really need to get together for a couple brews or a single malt when I get back to seacoast NH.
FULL SEND!!!!

Online rsdavis9

Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3614 on: 03/04/2022 05:45 pm »
Not really related to ''normal'' fusion but still - any thoughts ?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/lattice-confinement-fusion
Also from the same NASA group on their ''Lattice Confinement Fusion'' study in ARPA-E LENR conference ( yeah hhh  :o )
https://arpa-e.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021LENR_workshop_Dudzinski.pdf

This is cold fusion by a different name.
I still hold out some hope for something (working) but I am in a minority of both my friends and nearly every scientist in the world.

Too funny.  We really need to get together for a couple brews or a single malt when I get back to seacoast NH.

Yes NH for spacex.
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline RON_P

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3615 on: 03/04/2022 09:40 pm »
Professor Uri Shumlak from ZAP energy

Offline RON_P

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3616 on: 03/08/2022 08:28 pm »
More good news for ZAP energy concept .
https://phys.org/news/2022-03-scientists-thermonuclear-fusion-sheared-flow-z-pinch.html
Quote
In findings that could help advance another "viable pathway" to fusion energy, research led by Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) physicists has proven the existence of neutrons produced through thermonuclear reactions from a sheared-flow stabilized Z-pinch device.

The researchers used advanced computer modeling techniques and diagnostic measurement devices honed at LLNL to solve a decades-old problem of distinguishing neutrons produced by thermonuclear reactions from ones produced by ion beam-driven instabilities for plasmas in the magneto-inertial fusion regime.

While the team's previous research showed neutrons measured from sheared-flow stabilized Z-pinch devices were "consistent with thermonuclear production, we hadn't completely proven it yet," said LLNL physicist Drew Higginson, one of the co-authors of a paper recently published in Physics of Plasmas.

"This is direct proof that thermonuclear fusion produces these neutrons and not ions driven by beam instabilities," said Higginson, principal investigator of the Portable and Adaptable Neutron Diagnostics (PANDA) team that is doing research under a Department of Energy Advanced Research Projects Agency-Energy (ARPA-E) cooperative agreement. "It's not proven they're going to get energy gain, but it is a promising result that suggests they are on a favorable path."

LLNL physicist James Mitrani was the lead author on the paper, which demonstrates how the lab's broad range of research is benefiting the larger fusion community beyond the major advancements made by LLNL's National Ignition Facility (NIF), the world's most energetic laser system.

"The research only focused on this one device," Mitrani said, "but the general techniques and concepts are applicable to a lot of fusion devices in this intermediate magneto-inertial fusion regime." He noted that regime operates in the area between laser fusion facilities, such as NIF and the Omega Laser Facility at the University of Rochester, and fusion devices that confine plasmas in the purely magnetic regime, like ITER (a multinational project in southern France), SPARC (under construction near Boston) or other tokamak devices.

Since August, NIF has generated buzz throughout the global scientific community because an inertial confinement fusion (ICF) experiment yielded a record 1.35 megajoules (MJ) of energy. That milestone brought researchers to the threshold of ignition—defined by the National Academy of Sciences and the National Nuclear Security Administration as when a NIF implosion produces more fusion energy than the amount of laser energy delivered to the target. That shot was preceded by progress LLNL researchers made in achieving a burning plasma state in laboratory experiments.

Fusion is the energy source found in the sun, stars and thermonuclear weapons. NIF's ICF experiments focus 192 laser beams on a small target to compress and heat partially frozen hydrogen isotopes inside a fuel capsule, creating an implosion replicating the conditions of pressure and temperature found only in the cores of stars and giant planets and in exploding nuclear weapons. Z-pinch machines accomplish fusion using a powerful magnetic field to confine and "pinch" the plasma.

The Z-pinch concept is a relatively simple design that has existed as a theoretical model since the 1930s. But Higginson noted it had a long history of "terrible instabilities" that hindered the ability to generate the conditions needed to attain a net fusion energy gain.

In the 1990s, LLNL scientists began working with University of Washington (UW) researchers to advance another promising path toward ignition, the sheared-flow stabilized Z-pinch concept. Instead of powerful stabilizing magnets used in other Z-pinch devices, sheared-flow stabilized Z-pinch devices use pulsed electrical current to generate a magnetic field flowing through a column of plasma to reduce fusion-disrupting instabilities.

"The problem with instabilities is that they don't create a viable path to energy production, whereas thermonuclear fusion does," Higginson said. "It's always been tricky to diagnose this difference, especially in a Z-pinch."

In 2015, LLNL and UW researchers were awarded a $5.28 million ARPA-E cooperative agreement to test the physics of pinch stabilization at higher energies and pinch current under the university's Fusion Z-Pinch Experiment (FuZE) project.

Under a subsequent ARPA-E "capability team" cooperative agreement, LLNL researchers focused on diagnostics that measured the neutron emissions produced during the fusion process, including the spatial locations and time profiles of those emissions. Combining the plasma diagnostic expertise of national laboratories and the agile operation of private companies draws on each of their individual strengths and is a key objective of the ARPA-E fusion capability team program.

As the radius of the FuZE cylinder narrowed to increase compression, it also would create dips in the plasma that generated much stronger magnetic fields that would cause the plasma to pinch inwards more in certain spots than in others. Like the pinched ends of a popular tubular minced meat, those undesired "sausage" instabilities would create beams of faster ions that produced neutrons that could be confused with desired thermonuclear-produced neutrons.

LLNL researchers placed two plastic scintillator detectors outside of the device to measure traces of neutrons as they emerged in just a few microseconds from different points and angles outside the Z-pinch chamber.

"We showed that emitted neutron energies were equal at different points around this device, which is indicative of thermonuclear fusion reactions," Mitrani said.

The analysis included creating histograms of the neutron pulses detected by the two scintillators and comparing them using methods such as Monte Carlo computerized simulations that examine all possible outcomes.

The diagnostics aren't new, Higginson said, but "the idea of using histograms of individual neutron pulse energies to measure the anisotropy—the difference in energies when you look in different directions—is a new technique and is something we thought of, developed and implemented here. In addition, we have been working with UC Berkeley, which has helped us to develop the modeling capability to iron out the uncertainties in the measurements and completely understand the data we're seeing. We're not just looking through raw data."

The paper, "Thermonuclear neutron emission from a sheared-flow stabilized Z-pinch," was published in November and stemmed from an invited talk Mitrani presented at the American Physical Society-Division of Plasma Physics annual meeting in 2020.

Mitrani and Higginson were joined by LLNL colleague Harry McLean; Joshua Brown and Thibault Laplace of UC Berkeley; Bethany Goldblum of UC Berkeley and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory; and Elliot Claveau, Zack Draper, Eleanor Forbes, Ray Golingo, Brian Nelson, Uri Shumlak, Anton Stepanov, Tobin Weber and Yue Zhang of the University of Washington.

The research spun off a privately funded Seattle startup named Zap Energy in 2017.

Research is continuing under new grants, with more detailed measurements taken by 16 detectors as Zap Energy continues experiments.

"We want to be involved because we don't know what surprises might arise," Higginson said. "It could turn out that as you go to a higher current, all of a sudden you start driving instabilities again. We want to be able to prove as the current goes up that it is possible to maintain a high quality and stable pinch."
« Last Edit: 03/08/2022 08:28 pm by RON_P »

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3617 on: 03/10/2022 07:06 am »
After a few small delays caused by Covid, Tokamak Energy has finally achieved 100 million degrees!
The first company to do so in a Tokamak.

Offline RON_P

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3618 on: 03/24/2022 01:23 am »
From the recent US NRC fusion related meeting
https://adamswebsearch2.nrc.gov/webSearch2/main.jsp?AccessionNumber=ML22081A057

Damn Helion fusion Q would be VERY low less than 2 !!!
« Last Edit: 03/24/2022 01:25 am by RON_P »

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Fusion with space related aspects thread
« Reply #3619 on: 03/24/2022 08:19 am »
Damn Helion fusion Q would be VERY low less than 2 !!!
They don't need more than that. I have explained that several times before. The super efficient energy recovery changes everything for them. The fusion reactions only need to make up the 5% loss per round trip to have wall plug break even. People are getting hung up on the efficiency of their energy recovery for some reason that is beyond me. It is not that hard to image this working.
They need the Q >1 for 50 MWe though. Also note that this Q is for D-D/D-He3, which requires a somewhat higher triple product than it would be D-T, though they are mitigating some of that with the high ion- to electron- temperature ratio.
So it will be a little higher than Q~2 for D-T would be, but not as much as it would be with an equilibrium plasma like in a Tokamak.
« Last Edit: 03/24/2022 08:31 am by Elmar Moelzer »

 

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