Author Topic: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP  (Read 199851 times)

Offline VaBlue

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #20 on: 07/28/2021 05:26 pm »
The requirement for 2 crew EVAs for the Moon puzzles me. For example, Blue Origin's cabin on its lander would have to be depressurized as it doesn't have an airlock. Wouldn't all four astronauts need EVA suits for the depressurization? I am guessing that the 2 crew EVAs requirement is a minimum.

BO's proposed demonstration flight and lander only has two astronauts on it.  The sustainable follow-on lander is a complete redesign that includes four astro's.  So initially, only two suits will be needed. 

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #21 on: 07/28/2021 06:02 pm »
The requirement for 2 crew EVAs for the Moon puzzles me. For example, Blue Origin's cabin on its lander would have to be depressurized as it doesn't have an airlock. Wouldn't all four astronauts need EVA suits for the depressurization? I am guessing that the 2 crew EVAs requirement is a minimum.

BO's proposed demonstration flight and lander only has two astronauts on it.  The sustainable follow-on lander is a complete redesign that includes four astro's.  So initially, only two suits will be needed.

Yes, I know but unless Blue wins the protest, Blue's 2 person lander is dead. LETS requires a minimum of 4 astronauts for a number of missions.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2021 06:04 pm by yg1968 »

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #22 on: 07/28/2021 06:22 pm »
Technically the other two astronauts only need IVA suits, not full EVA suits. IVA suits are like a tenth the price as EVA suits.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #23 on: 07/28/2021 06:28 pm »
Technically the other two astronauts only need IVA suits, not full EVA suits. IVA suits are like a tenth the price as EVA suits.

How would you get to the foundation surface habitat with an IVA suit?

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #24 on: 07/28/2021 09:10 pm »
Quote from: page 63 of the draft RFP
4.1 ARTEMIS REQUIRED CAPABILITY

The Contractor shall provide the capability for 2 crew to perform EVA tasks (reference xEVA-EXP-042, xEVA Concept of Operations) from Human Lander System (HLS) on the Lunar surface with the interfaces, environments, crew anthropometric sizes, and metabolic rates as defined in xEVAS-SRD-001, xEVA System Requirements.


I've attached a copy of EVA-EXP-0042 Concept of Operations referred to above for anyone who hasn't seen it.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #25 on: 07/28/2021 10:59 pm »
I guess that the quote below answers the question in my post above:

Quote from: pages 29 and 30 of the Concept of Operations document
4.1.4.3.2 Artemis Phase 2 (Sustained Missions)

[...] For all rover-based EVA operations on Phase 2 missions with two pressurized rovers, the rover pairs will work together. Both crew in one rover will conduct the EVA together, while the other rover is nearby. Alternately, one crewmember from each rover may conduct the EVA together, still enabling two crewmembers to act as buddies, although this requires the rovers to be parked next to each other and requires two separate and simultaneous airlock operations. The surface teams will have the capability to conduct EVA with all four crewmembers simultaneously, if needed.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2021 11:05 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #26 on: 07/29/2021 12:00 am »
Related tweet by Kathy Lueders:

Quote from: Kathy Lueders
Artemis moonwalkers exploring on the lunar South Pole will wear revolutionary spacesuits that stand up to the Moon’s harsh environment. NASA is embracing commercial partnerships to optimize spacesuit tech & inspire pioneering in the space market.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-empowers-industry-in-spacesuit-plan-for-artemis-space-station

https://twitter.com/KathyLueders/status/1420498298440454156

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #27 on: 07/29/2021 04:35 pm »
Spacesuit RFP now, EVA with the new suits in 2023. That's fast.

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #28 on: 08/05/2021 09:59 am »
A pre-solicitation Conference Presentation was posted yesterday.  Also an updated Interested Parties list (rev 1).  Both documents attached.

Link to notice:
https://sam.gov/opp/e92412d6de0e41bda7a9ab037addb53c/view

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #29 on: 08/10/2021 02:00 pm »
https://oig.nasa.gov/docs/IG-21-025.pdf

Quote
WHY WE PERFORMED THIS AUDIT

The development of new spacesuits is a critical component of achieving NASA’s goals of returning humans to the Moon, continuing safe operations on the International Space Station (ISS), and exploring Mars and other deep space locations. For extravehicular activities such as spacewalks or exploring the lunar surface, astronauts require Extravehicular Mobility Units (EMU), which includes the spacesuit itself and the hardware that physically connects the EMU to the ISS and other space systems. Currently, astronauts use EMUs designed 45 years ago for the Space Shuttle Program and rely on these refurbished and partially redesigned spacesuits for extravehicular activities on the ISS.

For the past 14 years, NASA has been developing next-generation spacesuit technology, which 5 years ago led to the creation of the project known as the Exploration Extravehicular Mobility Units (xEMU) that will be used to support astronaut involvement in multiple programs. Specifically, the xEMU will be used on the ISS and Artemis missions involving both the Gateway and Human Landing System (HLS). We reported in 2017 that despite spending nearly
$200 million on extravehicular spacesuit development over the previous 9-year period, the Agency remained years away from having a flight-ready spacesuit to use on exploration missions. Since our 2017 report, NASA has spent an additional $220 million—for a total of $420 million—on spacesuit development.

This audit examined NASA’s development of next-generation spacesuits for ISS and Artemis missions. Specifically, we examined the extent to which NASA is addressing challenges related to cost, schedule, and performance of the next-generation spacesuit system. To accomplish our objective, we performed work at Johnson Space Center and Marshall Space Flight Center. We reviewed and analyzed NASA’s financial accounting system; planning, programming, budgeting, and execution information; and relevant laws and regulations. We also interviewed NASA project officials and reviewed stakeholder requirements documents and key NASA policies and procedures governing risk management.

WHAT WE FOUND

NASA’s current schedule is to produce the first two flight-ready xEMUs by November 2024, but the Agency faces significant challenges in meeting this goal. This schedule includes approximately a 20-month delay in delivery for the planned design, verification, and testing suit, two qualification suits, an ISS Demo suit, and two lunar flight suits. These delays—attributable to funding shortfalls, COVID-19 impacts, and technical challenges—have left no schedule margin for delivery of the two flight-ready xEMUs. Given the integration requirements, the suits would not be ready for flight until April 2025 at the earliest. Moreover, by the time two flight-ready xEMUs are available, NASA will have spent over a billion dollars on the development and assembly of its next-generation spacesuits.

Given these anticipated delays in spacesuit development, a lunar landing in late 2024 as NASA currently plans is not feasible. That said, NASA’s inability to complete development of xEMUs for a 2024 Moon landing is by no means the only factor impacting the viability of the Agency’s current return-to-the-Moon timetable. For example, our previous audit work identified significant delays in other major programs essential to a lunar landing, including the Space Launch System rocket and Orion capsule. Moreover, delays related to lunar lander development and the recently decided lander contract award bid protests will also preclude a 2024 landing.
   
As spacesuit development continues, evolving and competing requirements from key program stakeholders such as the HLS, ISS, and Gateway increases the risk of future cost, schedule, and performance issues. Additionally, prior to their use on ISS and Artemis missions, astronauts will require suits for training. However, training needs across the stakeholders—particularly the ISS and HLS programs—do not align with projections of when suit hardware will be available. Specifically, the EVA Office is concerned there will not be sufficient quantities of training hardware available for early training events to support the currently planned 2024 Artemis III mission.

As NASA continues to develop and mature its next-generation spacesuit capabilities, the Agency must decide on its approach to procuring additional suits for both ISS and Artemis missions. In October 2019, NASA issued a Request for Information (RFI) to determine industry capabilities to fulfill future spacesuit needs. At that time, NASA intended to initiate a hybrid contract consisting of a single prime contractor for integration and multiple awards for development and sustainment known as the Exploration Extravehicular Activity Production and Services (xEVAPS) contract. However, after 18 months NASA canceled the xEVAPS RFI and issued a new RFI in April 2021 for the Exploration Extravehicular Activity Services (xEVAS), significantly altering its approach for future suit acquisition by purchasing services instead of equipment. As previously discussed, to date NASA has spent more than $420 million on spacesuit design and development, but the new xEVAS RFI gives industry the choice to either leverage NASA’s designs or propose their own. Therefore, the extent to which NASA’s investments will be utilized is unclear. Additionally, the xEVAS RFI does not stipulate that the suit be compatible with both the ISS and Artemis programs, a distinction that could result in industry developing (and NASA purchasing) two different spacesuits—one for use in low Earth orbit on the ISS and another for use on the lunar surface during Artemis missions. Given the Station’s limited expected lifespan, developing a suit solely for the ISS may not prove cost effective.

WHAT WE RECOMMENDED

To ensure the successful development of the xEMU, we made four recommendations to the Associate Administrator for the Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate, including (1) adjusting the schedule as appropriate to reduce development risks; (2) developing an integrated master schedule to incorporate and align the hardware deliveries and training needs of the dependent Programs—Gateway, ISS, and HLS—and the Flight Operations Directorate; (3) ensuring technical requirements for the next-generation suits are solidified before selecting the acquisition strategy to procure suits for the ISS and Artemis programs; and (4) developing an acquisition strategy for the next-generation spacesuits that meets the needs of both the ISS and Artemis programs.

We provided a draft of this report to NASA management who concurred with our recommendations and described planned actions to address them. We consider the proposed actions responsive and will close the recommendations upon their completion and verification.
« Last Edit: 08/10/2021 02:01 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #30 on: 08/10/2021 02:01 pm »
https://twitter.com/wapodavenport/status/1425094366171967490

Quote
From NASA OIG on space suits: "The suits would not be ready for flight until April 2025 at the earliest." By then NASA "will have spent over a billion dollars on the development and assembly." Bottom line: "A lunar landing in late 2024 as NASA currently plans is not feasible."

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #31 on: 08/10/2021 02:38 pm »
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1425100482779942936

Quote
SpaceX could do it if need be

Edit to add:

twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1425098664318586888

Quote
There are 27 different companies supplying the components for NASA's next-generation spacesuits, IG notes:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1425100378459279370

Quote
Seems like too many cooks in the kitchen
« Last Edit: 08/10/2021 02:41 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline Rondaz

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #32 on: 08/10/2021 03:12 pm »
NASA considers it impossible for Americans to land on the moon in 2024.

NASA General Inspector: Americans will not be able to land on the moon in 2024 due to unavailability of spacesuits.

17:34 10.08.2021 (updated: 17:38 10.08.2021)

WASHINGTON, Aug 10 - RIA Novosti. The landing of the Americans on the moon in 2024 is not possible due to the unavailability of spacesuits, according to a report from the office of the inspector general of NASA .

“NASA's current schedule is to have the flightable xEMU (spacesuit variant - ed.) Ready by November 2024, but the agency faces major obstacles in meeting this goal. This schedule now includes a delay of about 20 months due to the planned development, verification and testing of spacesuits ... The spacesuits will not be ready for flight until at least April 2025, "the report says.

Earlier it was reported about the intention of the United States to resume manned flights to the Moon in 2024. The new lunar program was named Artemis ("Artemis") in honor of the Greek goddess of fertility and the Moon, the twin sister of the god Apollo, after whom the first US lunar program was named, which included six man-made landings on the moon in the 1960s and 70s years of the last century. According to NASA's schedule, the first unmanned flight under the Artemis program is to take place in 2021. The second flight or mission of Artemis-2 with a crew will take place in 2023. In the course of Artemis-3, which is scheduled for 2024, the return of a person to the moon should take place.

https://ria.ru/20210810/luna-1745239668.html

Offline clongton

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #33 on: 08/12/2021 08:33 pm »
NASA considers it impossible for Americans to land on the moon in 2024.

NASA General Inspector: Americans will not be able to land on the moon in 2024 due to unavailability of spacesuits.

17:34 10.08.2021 (updated: 17:38 10.08.2021)

WASHINGTON, Aug 10 - RIA Novosti. The landing of the Americans on the moon in 2024 is not possible due to the unavailability of spacesuits, according to a report from the office of the inspector general of NASA .

“NASA's current schedule is to have the flightable xEMU (spacesuit variant - ed.) Ready by November 2024, but the agency faces major obstacles in meeting this goal. This schedule now includes a delay of about 20 months due to the planned development, verification and testing of spacesuits ... The spacesuits will not be ready for flight until at least April 2025, "the report says.

Sounds like a challenge to me. Elon, are you listening?
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline cplchanb

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #34 on: 08/13/2021 03:34 am »
wow the irony....here we were sweating that the SLS wouldnt be ready in time....in fact its the spacesuits that are the limiting factor now... >:(

Offline Scintillant

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #35 on: 08/13/2021 06:14 am »
wow the irony....here we were sweating that the SLS wouldnt be ready in time....in fact its the spacesuits that are the limiting factor now... >:(

Hey now, let's not be hasty, there's still plenty of time for the SLS to be late ;)

Offline spacexplorer

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #36 on: 08/15/2021 03:00 pm »
What's wrong with "old generation" spacesuites? Why cannot they be used in new missions? Ok, the new generation WILL be more comfortable and upgraded... when thei will exist. Aren't projects of old spacesuites available anymore?

Offline Alvian@IDN

Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #37 on: 08/15/2021 03:04 pm »
What's wrong with "old generation" spacesuites? Why cannot they be used in new missions? Ok, the new generation WILL be more comfortable and upgraded... when thei will exist. Aren't projects of old spacesuites available anymore?
Same reason as to why reviving a Saturn V in current technologies isn't as easy as it sounds (heck even developing SLS using the heritage hardwares is the same, even though several of its advocates had claimed it should be easy)

Or the same reason as to why most people didn't use a Nokia 2100 anymore :)
« Last Edit: 08/15/2021 03:08 pm by Alvian@IDN »
My parents was just being born when the Apollo program is over. Why we are still stuck in this stagnation, let's go forward again

Offline DreamyPickle

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #38 on: 08/15/2021 03:41 pm »
What's wrong with "old generation" spacesuites? Why cannot they be used in new missions? Ok, the new generation WILL be more comfortable and upgraded... when thei will exist. Aren't projects of old spacesuites available anymore?
The suits currently being used on the ISS are very old, so old that the OIG report notes that NASA is having trouble purchasing spare parts. Many components are no longer manufactured by suppliers so you would at least have to modify the design to replace those. So why not design a new better suit anyway?

As far as I understand the problems noted by the OIG are with xEMU: the new space suit design that NASA has been building recently but has its roots in the Constellation. This topic is actually about the "xEVAS" contract under which NASA would just buy EVA services which may or may not use some of the xEMU's technology.

SpaceX will eventually need space suits in large number so they might establish some steady production line for their own purposes. One of the problems noted in the OIG report is tight mass budgets for HLS but Starship obviously doesn't suffer from this problem.

Nobody seems to have mentioned this but space tourists would be very willing to pay extra for an EVA and everything is much less awkward if the suits are owned and operated by a private company. This means that non-government buyers for EVA services would definitely exist.

Offline NaN

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Re: Commercial Spacesuits Services RFI and RFP
« Reply #39 on: 08/15/2021 07:46 pm »
As far as I understand the problems noted by the OIG are with xEMU: the new space suit design that NASA has been building recently but has its roots in the Constellation. This topic is actually about the "xEVAS" contract under which NASA would just buy EVA services which may or may not use some of the xEMU's technology.

To clarify these points: the OIG noted schedule and cost problems with EVA suit project for Artemis, including both xEVAPS (the old plan) and xEVAS (the new plan). They did not note any issues with the actual suit design (xEMU).

The old plan was for NASA to act as the prime contractor to build the first few xEMU suits and then let contracts for industry primes to build NASA's suit design without modification. The new plan is for NASA to let contracts for industry primes to build and provide services for their own suits which can leverage xEMU design as much as they wish to, but they are not bound to follow it.

OIG notes that both plans carry significant schedule risks for 2024 landing. We'll see what industry thinks they can do in hopefully ~2 months - I am looking forward to it  :D

Tags: OPF 
 

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