Author Topic: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept  (Read 6507 times)

Offline Eric Hedman

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HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« on: 10/16/2018 03:17 pm »

Offline birdman

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #1 on: 10/16/2018 03:28 pm »
Would be 100x cheaper and more feasible without astronauts. Wouldn't need life support, wouldn't need to return, wouldn't need to be on a human-rated launcher, etc etc etc. I don't see the benefits of including people on this mission.

Either way, it's not getting funded for many decades, if ever.
« Last Edit: 10/16/2018 03:31 pm by birdman »

Offline brickmack

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #2 on: 10/16/2018 05:11 pm »
Has it been updated? The video still says 2014, and the graphics look unchanged (still using the white backshell on Orion too), nothing on the page seems changed, and I don't see anything on NTRS newer than 2015. I think the Daily Fail just stumbled across this and assumed it was recent

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #3 on: 10/16/2018 05:22 pm »
Has it been updated? The video still says 2014, and the graphics look unchanged (still using the white backshell on Orion too), nothing on the page seems changed, and I don't see anything on NTRS newer than 2015. I think the Daily Fail just stumbled across this and assumed it was recent
The NASA webpage says it was last updated yesterday.  "Page Last Modified: October 15, 2018"
The updates may only be minor.

Offline ncb1397

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #4 on: 10/16/2018 05:41 pm »
Has it been updated? The video still says 2014, and the graphics look unchanged (still using the white backshell on Orion too), nothing on the page seems changed, and I don't see anything on NTRS newer than 2015. I think the Daily Fail just stumbled across this and assumed it was recent
The NASA webpage says it was last updated yesterday.  "Page Last Modified: October 15, 2018"
The updates may only be minor.

The way back machine has a snapshot from June 2018. The only thing different is hyperlink text wording, image and video placement within the page and who is listed as the page curator.

More importantly, is that Eric Boe piloting the HAVOC airship? He looks pretty good given his age.

https://www.nasa.gov/astronauts/biographies/eric-a-boe
« Last Edit: 10/16/2018 05:43 pm by ncb1397 »

Offline Bynaus

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #5 on: 10/16/2018 08:01 pm »
Dear NASA: Send an uncrewed airship there, fill it with a breathable atmosphere, extend its solar arrays, and let that platform do some good Venus atmospheric and surface science for a couple of years. Then we'll talk again about adding crew...
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Offline RonM

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #6 on: 10/16/2018 08:03 pm »
Would be 100x cheaper and more feasible without astronauts. Wouldn't need life support, wouldn't need to return, wouldn't need to be on a human-rated launcher, etc etc etc. I don't see the benefits of including people on this mission.

Either way, it's not getting funded for many decades, if ever.

The only reason to send a crew to Venus would be to teleoperate landers or rovers. The conditions on the surface are so harsh a probe's lifetime would be measured in hours. That's not long enough to operate from Earth. However, that can be done from orbit. No need to fly around in a blimp.

Maybe in the far future if someone wanted to colonize Venus' atmosphere. You'd want to do some test flights.

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #7 on: 10/17/2018 08:37 pm »
Something must have triggered articles on this topic.  I've seen articles in 3 or 4 places in the last couple of days.

Here's one on space.com:

https://www.space.com/42162-nasa-humans-to-venus.html?utm_source=notification

Offline CameronD

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #8 on: 10/19/2018 01:47 am »
Something must have triggered articles on this topic.  I've seen articles in 3 or 4 places in the last couple of days.

Here's one on space.com:

A slow news week most likely..
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going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #9 on: 10/22/2018 02:52 am »
Has it been updated? The video still says 2014, and the graphics look unchanged (still using the white backshell on Orion too), nothing on the page seems changed, and I don't see anything on NTRS newer than 2015. I think the Daily Fail just stumbled across this and assumed it was recent
The NASA webpage says it was last updated yesterday.  "Page Last Modified: October 15, 2018"
The updates may only be minor.

The way back machine has a snapshot from June 2018. The only thing different is hyperlink text wording, image and video placement within the page and who is listed as the page curator.

More importantly, is that Eric Boe piloting the HAVOC airship? He looks pretty good given his age.

https://www.nasa.gov/astronauts/biographies/eric-a-boe
Definitely not. It's a couple of young guys who work at NASA Langley's space concepts branch.
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #10 on: 10/22/2018 02:53 am »
Dear NASA: Send an uncrewed airship there, fill it with a breathable atmosphere, extend its solar arrays, and let that platform do some good Venus atmospheric and surface science for a couple of years. Then we'll talk again about adding crew...
You seem to believe NASA is actually serious about sending crew to Venus. NASA isn't. This is just a concept, and it hasn't been funded for years.
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Offline Bynaus

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #11 on: 10/22/2018 06:01 am »
Dear NASA: Send an uncrewed airship there, fill it with a breathable atmosphere, extend its solar arrays, and let that platform do some good Venus atmospheric and surface science for a couple of years. Then we'll talk again about adding crew...
You seem to believe NASA is actually serious about sending crew to Venus. NASA isn't. This is just a concept, and it hasn't been funded for years.

No, not really (me beliveng NASA being serious about this). I just find it a bit ironic that concepts like this are devloped when no real Venus science mission (robotic) has been funded since what, Magellan? So just a bit of sarcasm (about sneaking in a science mission) from my side.
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Offline mikelepage

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #12 on: 10/27/2018 04:32 am »
Venus crewed missions are one of those things I think will only happen once space tether technology is well understood and implementable. Why? Getting down isn’t the problem. Getting up is.  It’s (conceptually) easy enough to have a manned craft that enters and descends to a platform in the upper atmosphere, but requiring that platform to support an orbit capable ascent vehicle, plus ISRU equipment, on top of all the gear they’d need... you gotta be kidding.

Much easier to imagine a New Shepherd style reusable suborbital ascent stage launching from that platform, sending a capsule up for rendezvous with a tether. No need to have the tether fixed over a particular location either, just match the orbital speed of the tether to the average wind speeds at your platform’s altitude. Hopefully then you can reuse your booster as many times as needed.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #13 on: 10/27/2018 04:58 am »
Venus crewed missions are one of those things I think will only happen once space tether technology is well understood and implementable. Why? Getting down isn’t the problem. Getting up is.  It’s (conceptually) easy enough to have a manned craft that enters and descends to a platform in the upper atmosphere, but requiring that platform to support an orbit capable ascent vehicle, plus ISRU equipment, on top of all the gear they’d need... you gotta be kidding. ...
Doesn't need ISRU equipment. It enters with enough fuel to get to orbit.

This is more than just a pretty animation. The engineering concept closes. You CAN enter enough mass to have a balloon inflate big enough to carry a rocket big enough to get the crew back to orbit. They did the calculations.


...Still is absolutely crazy and doesn't make sense, but the engineering closes. ;)
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Offline ncb1397

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #14 on: 10/27/2018 05:43 am »
2015 AAIA Space Conference slide deck: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20160006329.pdf

building a proof of concept scale model: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20160006580.pdf

computer modeling of EDI(Entry, Descent, Inflation): https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20150006858.pdf

Something I find peculiar:

Quote
A significant design consideration became apparent during initial assessments of the human mission. Airship designs do not typically include a requirement to transport lifting gas from one planet to another. In fact, ground-based inflation factors into airship design as an operational constraint. For the HAVOC mission, however, transporting the lifting gas mass to Venus presents a significant payload constraint. The HAVOC crewed mission requires transporting 8,200 kg of helium lifting gas, not including tanks. If it were desirable to use a mixture of gases similar to air as both the lifting gas and a means of life support, 59,400 kg of the gas mixture would be required. Thus, for a human mission, reducing the spacecraft payload mass dictates utilizing the lowest molecular weight lifting gas capable of life support. Though not considered in the present analysis, it will be of interest to investigate the use of a dual-purpose helium-oxygen mixture for the manned mission.

O2 in a CO2 atmosphere makes a pretty poor lifting gas and I don't see how you could use the life support without deflating/weighing down your airship. I suppose this would only be for the later stage permenant habitation effort where the airship becomes a habitat when it isn't being weighed down by the gondola and ascent vehicle.

edit: Or maybe I am reading this wrong. I think they mean, to avoid a pure oxygen environment, instead of a oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere for transit to and from Venus, helium is used to dilute the oxygen but maintain sea level pressure. That helium is also used on the back end as lifting gas?
« Last Edit: 10/27/2018 05:50 am by ncb1397 »

Offline geza

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #15 on: 10/27/2018 05:59 am »
I remember the moment when I read the news that Venera 7 measured 500 Celsius and 100 atm at the surface. It was a real shock for a space-fan kid to realize that humans will NEVER step to the soil of the nearest planet. It was only a year after Neil's small step. 

Offline high road

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #16 on: 10/31/2018 02:29 pm »
Venus crewed missions are one of those things I think will only happen once space tether technology is well understood and implementable. Why? Getting down isn’t the problem. Getting up is.  It’s (conceptually) easy enough to have a manned craft that enters and descends to a platform in the upper atmosphere, but requiring that platform to support an orbit capable ascent vehicle, plus ISRU equipment, on top of all the gear they’d need... you gotta be kidding.

Much easier to imagine a New Shepherd style reusable suborbital ascent stage launching from that platform, sending a capsule up for rendezvous with a tether. No need to have the tether fixed over a particular location either, just match the orbital speed of the tether to the average wind speeds at your platform’s altitude. Hopefully then you can reuse your booster as many times as needed.

Strange. I agree that launching a rocket from a different planet is quite a lot harder than usually assumed, but the size of that rocket is nowhere near the top of the list of challenges.

Don't use a single platform. Add a protective layer to the smallest earth orbital rocket that suits your needs. Have the return vehicle remain in orbit. Everything else is comparable to Mars infrastructure. Suspend from balloons. Protection from acid remains a challenge.

Offline whitelancer64

Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #17 on: 10/31/2018 03:19 pm »
I remember the moment when I read the news that Venera 7 measured 500 Celsius and 100 atm at the surface. It was a real shock for a space-fan kid to realize that humans will NEVER step to the soil of the nearest planet. It was only a year after Neil's small step.

I have an old sci-fi book (from the 50s?) about a colonizing trip to Venus. It's pretty hilarious to read now. They manage to crash-land and find semi-intelligent green monkeys living in a valley.
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Offline Patchouli

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Re: HAVOC - Venus Mission Concept
« Reply #18 on: 10/31/2018 04:39 pm »
Doesn't need ISRU equipment. It enters with enough fuel to get to orbit.

This is more than just a pretty animation. The engineering concept closes. You CAN enter enough mass to have a balloon inflate big enough to carry a rocket big enough to get the crew back to orbit. They did the calculations.


...Still is absolutely crazy and doesn't make sense, but the engineering closes. ;)

Since the capsule would be very basic and not even have a heat shield you probably could get away with something the size of a Vega or Minotaur IV rocket for the ascent vehicle which would be within the mass limits of what can be done with known EDL technology.
« Last Edit: 10/31/2018 04:45 pm by Patchouli »

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