Starship Passenger Landing - Emergency?

[Twark_Main]

Engineers may not possess that intangible coolness under fire which is absolutely necessary when your life depends on shutting off the correct valve in time, or some similar emergency.

I can't believe I even have to argue on this point. Just look at what happened with the last Boeing capsule that went to space.

That "intangible coolness" is largely about training.

Engineers can be trained, and they can be psychologically screened for being cool under pressure. I don't see what the big difference is between job titles.

[InterestedEngineer]

Engineers may not possess that intangible coolness under fire which is absolutely necessary when your life depends on shutting off the correct valve in time, or some similar emergency.

I can't believe I even have to argue on this point. Just look at what happened with the last Boeing capsule that went to space.

That "intangible coolness" is largely about training.

Engineers can be trained, and they can be psychologically screened for being cool under pressure. I don't see what the big difference is between job titles.

"Anyone can become a test pilot".

Um, yeah, sure.

I've spent an entire career around engineers.   The selection process for engineers doesn't select for these traits.  At all.

The selection process for test pilots does.  Now, a test pilot can (and has been) an engineer.   But the whole thing is test pilot mentality.

[DanClemmensen]

Engineers may not possess that intangible coolness under fire which is absolutely necessary when your life depends on shutting off the correct valve in time, or some similar emergency.

I can't believe I even have to argue on this point. Just look at what happened with the last Boeing capsule that went to space.

That "intangible coolness" is largely about training.

Engineers can be trained, and they can be psychologically screened for being cool under pressure. I don't see what the big difference is between job titles.

"Anyone can become a test pilot".

Um, yeah, sure.

I've spent an entire career around engineers.   The selection process for engineers doesn't select for these traits.  At all.

The selection process for test pilots does.  Now, a test pilot can (and has been) an engineer.   But the whole thing is test pilot mentality.

Yep, different skills sets. Folks who put themselves on the test pilot career path are different than folks who choose the crazy test engineer career path. There are folks on each of those paths who could to the job on the other path, but each has self-selected the path they love. You really want a test pilot to make the split-second piloting decisions in the last seconds of an emergency. You really want a brilliant engineer (as part of a team) to work around nasty unsuspected problems that cannot be solved in a split second.

[Oersted]

Only a very few can become test pilots, and beyond "self-selection of the career they love" there is also a brutal weeding-out of all those who are not apt.

I would say that not only do we need those for the first good number of crewed test flights. We will also need people with those traits for the first several crewed missions to Mars. It is hard to imagine more stressful trips than those long voyages into dangers and unknowns. We will need not only brilliant engineers and scientists. No, the first traits they will be selected on are coolness under duress and an ability to function in well in a group.

[Vultur]

I think the key question is really whether there will be people making life critical snap decisions in a very short timeline, or whether the vehicle will basically be totally automated and human input happens on a much longer timescale.

I would say that not only do we need those for the first good number of crewed test flights. We will also need people with those traits for the first several crewed missions to Mars. It is hard to imagine more stressful trips than those long voyages into dangers and unknowns. We will need not only brilliant engineers and scientists. No, the first traits they will be selected on are coolness under duress and an ability to function in well in a group.

I think it's a somewhat different set of traits actually. Close cooperation in limited space doesn't necessarily select for the same people as become test pilots.

I would also say it's likely to be a different kind of stress - more long term, less split-second reaction.

[meekGee]

I think the key question is really whether there will be people making life critical snap decisions in a very short timeline, or whether the vehicle will basically be totally automated and human input happens on a much longer timescale.

I would say that not only do we need those for the first good number of crewed test flights. We will also need people with those traits for the first several crewed missions to Mars. It is hard to imagine more stressful trips than those long voyages into dangers and unknowns. We will need not only brilliant engineers and scientists. No, the first traits they will be selected on are coolness under duress and an ability to function in well in a group.

I think it's a somewhat different set of traits actually. Close cooperation in limited space doesn't necessarily select for the same people as become test pilots.

I would also say it's likely to be a different kind of stress - more long term, less split-second reaction.

Exactly.

The situation of "you gotta think quickly because there's no time to think" is part of testing new vehicles, not part of flying on fully automated ones on their 100th flight.

The difference between this and say jetliners is that most non flight systems on a jetliner can be tested on the ground, though I'm still sure some cabin functions are tested in flight too.

But you don't need a test pilot to test a zero g toilet.

[JamesH65]

I think the key question is really whether there will be people making life critical snap decisions in a very short timeline, or whether the vehicle will basically be totally automated and human input happens on a much longer timescale.

I would say that not only do we need those for the first good number of crewed test flights. We will also need people with those traits for the first several crewed missions to Mars. It is hard to imagine more stressful trips than those long voyages into dangers and unknowns. We will need not only brilliant engineers and scientists. No, the first traits they will be selected on are coolness under duress and an ability to function in well in a group.

I think it's a somewhat different set of traits actually. Close cooperation in limited space doesn't necessarily select for the same people as become test pilots.

I would also say it's likely to be a different kind of stress - more long term, less split-second reaction.

Is it even a question? It's going to be completely automated. Will there even be any switchgear around for these test pilots to press? There certainly won't be any "pilot" controls, I don't believe a human would be able to react fast enough.

It's a drone.

[Oersted]

I think it's a somewhat different set of traits actually. Close cooperation in limited space doesn't necessarily select for the same people as become test pilots.

Actual test pilots, as opposed to the Hollywood kind, are very much chosen for their ability to cooperate smoothly and put their egos aside. 

It's going to be completely automated. Will there even be any switchgear around for these test pilots to press? There certainly won't be any "pilot" controls, I don't believe a human would be able to react fast enough.

The test pilots will of course not be flying Starship by the seat of their pants, but they will perform many other tasks onboard the ship. Remember, it is made to transport people, and do it safely, so there are very many aspects of the ship that will need testing performed by people. And for that you need cool-headed women and men who can deal with problems - some of them perhaps life-threatening - in very stressful circumstances.   

[Twark_Main]

"If you all love test pilots so much then why don't you marry it??"   

Call me crazy, but I don't think test pilots have a monopoly on competent life-or-death decision making under stress. Firefighters, police, doctors, military, EMTs, technical divers, etc etc etc.

Test pilots are good pilots. These other fields also have their "Top Of Their Class" professionals. Mars will take all kinds IMHO.

[meekGee]

"If you all love test pilots so much then why don't you marry it??"   

Call me crazy, but I don't think test pilots have a monopoly on competent life-or-death decision making under stress. Firefighters, police, doctors, military, EMTs, technical divers, etc etc etc.

Test pilots are good pilots. These other fields also have their "Top Of Their Class" professionals. Mars will take all kinds IMHO.

Heresy!

[JamesH65]

It's going to be completely automated. Will there even be any switchgear around for these test pilots to press? There certainly won't be any "pilot" controls, I don't believe a human would be able to react fast enough.

The test pilots will of course not be flying Starship by the seat of their pants, but they will perform many other tasks onboard the ship. Remember, it is made to transport people, and do it safely, so there are very many aspects of the ship that will need testing performed by people. And for that you need cool-headed women and men who can deal with problems - some of them perhaps life-threatening - in very stressful circumstances.

What tasks? Or, another way, what tasks that cannot be done by a computer, or remotely from the ground?

[Oersted]

Lightspeeed round-time constraints between Mars and Earth make time-critical decisions impossible to carry out remotely.