Quote from: DanClemmensen on 03/18/2023 12:59 pmSLS/Orion has quite a lot to do with Mars. SLS/Orion funding has suppressed a viable NASA Mars program and will continue to do so for at least a decade, providing the Chinese an opportunity to put the first humans on Mars.Assuming Starship works as planned (after recovering from unplanned hiccups I'm sure), SpaceX will proceed to Mars - without NASA if necessary. For heaven's sake that is the entire reason that SpaceX even exits at all - to go to Mars! He did not design and build Starship for NASA's use - he built it for SpaceX's use! If NASA is ready when he is, he'll invite them to go along for the ride but he's NOT going to wait for them, he's just not going to do that! For the life of me I just can't picture Elon asking NASA for permission to go to Mars, nor waiting for NASA to be ready to become part of the mission. THAT is why he did not even bother seeking NASA funding to develop Starship; he plans to just go ahead and do it! IMO anyone who thinks Elon will wait for NASA before heading to Mars is smoking something illegal.
SLS/Orion has quite a lot to do with Mars. SLS/Orion funding has suppressed a viable NASA Mars program and will continue to do so for at least a decade, providing the Chinese an opportunity to put the first humans on Mars.
I'm having an orbital mechanics problem with this. Using a Gateway in NRHO or another other cislunar orbit might make sense if you have a pure-SEP system for getting to Mars orbit but, otherwise, why would you tack on an extra 475m/s of delta-v to get into an orbit that would allow you to use a small amount of chemical prop and a large Oberth effect at perigee to get you all the way to a Mars transfer orbit?
<snip>......The Chinese will be in competition with Elon/SpaceX, not NASA. I see SpaceX remaining viable in the long term, but its Mars vision is driven by Elon, who is a single mortal. A Mars Exploration contract from NASA could add stability to a SpaceX Mars program,.....
Quote from: TheRadicalModerate on 03/17/2023 07:32 pmI'm having an orbital mechanics problem with this. Using a Gateway in NRHO or another other cislunar orbit might make sense if you have a pure-SEP system for getting to Mars orbit but, otherwise, why would you tack on an extra 475m/s of delta-v to get into an orbit that would allow you to use a small amount of chemical prop and a large Oberth effect at perigee to get you all the way to a Mars transfer orbit?I could also see using Gateway if you had a base on the moon generating lots of O₂ (even if not methane). Then your vehicle could refuel there relatively cheaply. After that, it could do a trans-Earth injection, with the plan of doing the main burn at perigee (i.e not landing on Earth!) (I'm not really sure this pencils out--I had trouble finding a source giving delta-v from Gateway back to Earth.)
The reason why the Gateway uses the NRHO is for Orion to be able to reach it and get back to Earth.
(I'm not really sure this pencils out--I had trouble finding a source giving delta-v from Gateway back to Earth.)
Quote from: Zed_Noir on 03/18/2023 04:05 pmThe reason why the Gateway uses the NRHO is for Orion to be able to reach it and get back to Earth.Because Orion is literally incapable of entering low lunar orbit and sending itself back to earth. Apollo did that over 50 years ago AND carried along its own 2-stage lunar lander to boot. SLS/Orion does not impress those of us who personally remember Apollo. The Artemis program can't even pretend, in its wildest dreams, to be able to duplicate what we did back in the 1960's. That's why this entire Artemis "thing" (I won't dignify it by calling it an exploration program) is so disappointing to us.
Quote from: clongton on 03/18/2023 05:46 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 03/18/2023 04:05 pmThe reason why the Gateway uses the NRHO is for Orion to be able to reach it and get back to Earth.Because Orion is literally incapable of entering low lunar orbit and sending itself back to earth. Apollo did that over 50 years ago AND carried along its own 2-stage lunar lander to boot. SLS/Orion does not impress those of us who personally remember Apollo. The Artemis program can't even pretend, in its wildest dreams, to be able to duplicate what we did back in the 1960's. That's why this entire Artemis "thing" (I won't dignify it by calling it an exploration program) is so disappointing to us.Artemis does not equal SLS and Orion. Artemis also includes HLS and CLPS, LTV, etc. Furthermore, the decisions about the service module were made when Orion wasn't going to the Moon. What would be disappointing is cancelling a lunar program, just because it isn't exactly what you want. I am OK with people arguing that SLS and Orion should be replaced by a commercial option but cancelling the entire program would be another Journey to Mars situation where we would not be going anywhere.
Quote from: clongton on 03/18/2023 05:46 pmQuote from: Zed_Noir on 03/18/2023 04:05 pmThe reason why the Gateway uses the NRHO is for Orion to be able to reach it and get back to Earth.Because Orion is literally incapable of entering low lunar orbit and sending itself back to earth. Apollo did that over 50 years ago AND carried along its own 2-stage lunar lander to boot. SLS/Orion does not impress those of us who personally remember Apollo. The Artemis program can't even pretend, in its wildest dreams, to be able to duplicate what we did back in the 1960's. That's why this entire Artemis "thing" (I won't dignify it by calling it an exploration program) is so disappointing to us.Artemis does not equal SLS and Orion. Artemis also includes HLS and CLPS, LTV, etc. Furthermore, the decisions about the service module were made when Orion wasn't going to the Moon...
What would be disappointing is cancelling a lunar program, just because it isn't exactly what you want.
I am OK with people arguing that SLS and Orion should be replaced by a commercial option but cancelling the entire program would be another Journey to Mars situation where we would not be going anywhere.
A few comments related to your post. Bear in mind that the surface habitat on Artemis IX was for the foundation surface habitat. NASA is expected to change that plan to smaller mobile habitats in the architecture that will be released on April 18th at the Space Symposium. That should save some money.
What the IG meant by not sustainable is that $4B per mission for SLS and Orion is too expensive. But NASA agreed with that conclusion and has been taking steps to reduce the per mission cost. It is not entirely clear how successful NASA has been so far on that front.
As an example, the Artemis IV mission would be “substantially delayed” if NASA was capped at FY2022.Alternatively, if the agency was cut 22 percent, NASA would have to “restructure or terminate currently ongoing major development work for Artemis IV” including Gateway, SLS Block 1B, Mobile Launcher-2 and the second SpaceX Human Landing System contract, and prioritize continuation of Artemis II and Artemis III “with potential delays to those flights.”
Quote from: Marcia SmithAs an example, the Artemis IV mission would be “substantially delayed” if NASA was capped at FY2022.Alternatively, if the agency was cut 22 percent, NASA would have to “restructure or terminate currently ongoing major development work for Artemis IV” including Gateway, SLS Block 1B, Mobile Launcher-2 and the second SpaceX Human Landing System contract, and prioritize continuation of Artemis II and Artemis III “with potential delays to those flights.”https://spacepolicyonline.com/news/nelson-details-devastating-impacts-if-nasa-funding-capped-at-fy2022-level-or-less/
Nelson assumes a 22% cut from FY23 which seems unlikely. In any event, here is the entire letter:https://spacepolicyonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Nelson-to-DeLauro-FY24.pdf
However, Nelson postulates that if the Department of Defense and the Department of Veterans Affairs are exempted and the goal remains keeping total discretionary funding at the FY2022 level, deeper cuts would have to be made in the other parts of the discretionary budget, a reduction of up to 22 percent. That would give NASA just $19.8 billion, Nelson wrote.
Nelson assumes a 22% cut from FY23 which seems unlikely.
In reality, while this wouldn't be 22% across NASA, as the House would try to minimize the impact there since support is relatively bipartisan...
Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) and Sen. Richard Shelby (R-AL), the two top members of the full Senate Appropriations Committee, retired last year. They’ve been replaced by Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA) and Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME). Shaheen and Sen. Jerry Moran (R-KS) continue as Chair and Ranking Member of the Senate CJS subcommittee.Shelby represented NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville and had a strong influence on NASA’s budget. Rep. Robert Aderholt (R-AL), whose district is close to Marshall, is on the House Appropriations Committee and was expected to chair the House CJS subcommittee. Instead he’s chairing a different subcommittee and Rep. Hal Rogers (R-KY) is chairing CJS. Rep. Matt Cartwright (D-PA), who chaired the subcommittee in the last Congress, is Ranking Member now. Rep. Kay Granger (R-TX) and Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-CT) are Chair and Ranking Member of the full committee.What all that means is that none of the top eight people who decide on NASA’s appropriations directly represent a NASA center, which could make a difference in what is certain to be a stressful budget year. Granger is from Texas where Johnson Space Center is located, but her district is in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, not near Houston.On top of that, the staff is changing. Toal Eisen and her Republican counterpart, Allen Cutler, have left after many years on the committee. Cutler will become President of the Coalition for Deep Space Exploration next week. On the House side, Ben Turpen is the brand new Republican staffer handling NASA. His background is defense budgeting at DOD and the Office of Management and Budget. Toal Eisen noted that none of the staffers who wrote the reports for NASA’s appropriations last year are doing that now.With House Republicans demanding dramatic spending cuts, committee and subcommittee members who have less of a vested interest in NASA than in the past, and new staff, NASA has its work cut out to get that 7 percent increase.
you can't trim 22% from discretionary spending and not impact NASA, so it would be affected.
Even with the schedule slip to Artemis IV, the Artemis Program needs a 6%+ increase in FY24 to stay on track. Orion/SLS had $4B+ of cost growth over last year’s runout that the program has had to absorb. The President’s FU24 budget has the budget for certain program elements going down when they should be going up to support development. Congress doesn’t actually have to cut the program. Just not meeting the increase will induce further delays and content reductions.
Quote from: yg1968 on 03/23/2023 12:59 amNelson assumes a 22% cut from FY23 which seems unlikely. In any event, here is the entire letter:https://spacepolicyonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Nelson-to-DeLauro-FY24.pdfHe's not pulling that number from nowhere.QuoteHowever, Nelson postulates that if the Department of Defense and the Department of Veterans Affairs are exempted and the goal remains keeping total discretionary funding at the FY2022 level, deeper cuts would have to be made in the other parts of the discretionary budget, a reduction of up to 22 percent. That would give NASA just $19.8 billion, Nelson wrote.In reality, while this wouldn't be 22% across NASA, as the House would try to minimize the impact there since support is relatively bipartisan... you can't trim 22% from discretionary spending and not impact NASA, so it would be affected.
Updated Orion/SLS budget history with FY24 budget out today. The bow wave keeps moving right. In the FY23 budget, FY24 was supposed to be $3.6B. In the FY24 budget, it is now $4.5B. (Congress will probably hike that to $4.7B if prior appropriations are any guide.) Over five years, FY23 thru FY27, there is $4.4B of cost growth going from the FY23 budget to the FY24 budget. Annual Orion/SLS/EGS Budget Requests ($B) FY17 FY18 FY19 FY20 FY21 FY22 FY23 FY24 FY25 FY26 FY27 FY28FY19 3.9 3.9 3.7 3.8 3.8 3.7 3.8FY20 4.4 4.1 3.4 3.4 3.5 3.8 3.7FY21 4.1 4.6 4.0 4.0 4.1 3.8 3.6FY22 4.5 4.5 4.5 4.4 4.2 3.9 3.9 FY23 4.5 4.5 4.7 3.6 3.1 2.8 2.4FY24 4.6 4.7 4.5 4.2 4.0 3.6 3.6 Latest Growth 0.1 0.0 0.9 1.1 1.2 1.2(FY24 Minus FY23)I would guess that the Artemis IV slip to 2028 is related to this, as well as the weird budget profile for Advanced Cislunar/Surface Capabilities. More impacts will probably emerge as the budget gets reviewed.
Budget cuts aren't always a bad thing, it sometimes forces NASA to be more creative in saving money. One possibility is that it may force NASA to order another iCPS which wouldn't be a bad thing.
Budget cuts aren't always a bad thing, it sometimes forces NASA to be more creative in saving money... A year long CR could have an impact on new programs such as habitats, LTV and Appendix P.
My own view is that Appendix P should be funded at the same level as Option B and if that is not enough funding for Blue or Dynetics then they shouldn't be selected.
I am not sure what you mean by bow wave.
Quote from: VSECOTSPE on 03/13/2023 04:26 pm Annual Orion/SLS/EGS Budget Requests ($B) FY22 FY23 FY24 FY25 FY26 FY27 FY28FY23 4.5 4.7 3.6 3.1 2.8 2.4FY24 4.6 4.7 4.5 4.2 4.0 3.6 3.6 Latest Growth 0.1 0.0 0.9 1.1 1.2 1.2(FY24 Minus FY23)I am not sure what you mean by bow wave. You are not using the right numbers. You have to add the numbers for Common Exploration Systems Development and Exploration Operations in order to make apples to apples comparisons between the FY23 and FY24 requests.
Annual Orion/SLS/EGS Budget Requests ($B) FY22 FY23 FY24 FY25 FY26 FY27 FY28FY23 4.5 4.7 3.6 3.1 2.8 2.4FY24 4.6 4.7 4.5 4.2 4.0 3.6 3.6 Latest Growth 0.1 0.0 0.9 1.1 1.2 1.2(FY24 Minus FY23)
Annual Orion/SLS/EGS Budget Requests ($B) FY22 FY23 FY24 FY25 FY26 FY27 FY28FY23 4.5 4.7 4.4 4.1 3.9 3.4FY24 4.6 4.7 4.5 4.2 4.0 3.6 3.6