Author Topic: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says  (Read 19475 times)

Offline Sphereion

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #20 on: 01/14/2008 02:38 pm »
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Blackstar - 14/1/2008  6:26 AM


Well, as an American, I have no problems with Europeans being taxed for an expensive system that is not really necessary.  Go right ahead and waste money.

That is very American of you  :laugh:

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sammie - 14/1/2008  9:19 AM

OK, lets put a different twist to this.

After watching NASA spend billions of Dollars on a project with little scientific or commericials gains and work spread out for purely political reasons (ie. shuttle), the EU has finally learned from this practice and created Galileo.

Im surprized the amount of flak Galileo is receiving, considering both the US and EU Governments are willing to spend much more money on other vanity projects.

I am French and I find Shuttle more interesting for space exploration than Galileo. It seems to be a system we do not need. The US system works fine. However "Old" Europe (France and Germany) are worried about America and being hit with a cane for being against America and Iraq (and we were right about that).

But America will not hurt UK, Poland or Italy who did support America, so could they turn off US GPS for selected countries?? Turning it off for all Europe would not work?

So why do we need Galileo?

Offline ckiki lwai

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #21 on: 01/14/2008 02:40 pm »
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Blackstar - 13/1/2008  10:46 PM
The US was worried that once Galileo was started, European governments would switch their militaries over to it, and NATO would no longer have compatible weapons.

What do you mean with "not compatible weapons"?
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline edkyle99

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #22 on: 01/14/2008 03:46 pm »
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Sphereion - 14/1/2008  9:38 AM

But America will not hurt UK, Poland or Italy who did support America, so could they turn off US GPS for selected countries?? Turning it off for all Europe would not work?

So why do we need Galileo?

I am one U.S. citizen who completely understands Europe's reasoning for creating Galileo.  GPS had "Selective Availability" built into its design, meaning that civilians (Europeans and U.S. citizens included) were not always guaranteed good navigation data.  When Galileo was proposed, the U.S. response was to recommended that the system either not be deployed or, if it was, that the U.S. be allowed to "jam" it when needed!  Europe responded by trying to "grab" some of the GPS frequency allocation, which didn't help the controversy.  The U.S. and Europe appear to have finally hammered out an agreement, but it took a long time to get there.  

http://www.edn.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6463936
http://technology.newscientist.com/article/dn12278
http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/09/19/EC-backs-funding-to-salvage-Galileo-GPS-project_1.html?MOBILE%20APPLICATIONS
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1674424620070716

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Offline Jim

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #23 on: 01/14/2008 04:07 pm »
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edkyle99 - 14/1/2008  11:46 AM

I am one U.S. citizen who completely understands Europe's reasoning for creating Galileo.  GPS had "Selective Availability" built into its design, meaning that civilians (Europeans and U.S. citizens included) were not always guaranteed good navigation data.


which is no longer in the design

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #24 on: 01/14/2008 04:33 pm »
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edkyle99 - 14/1/2008  10:46 AM
When Galileo was proposed, the U.S. response was to recommended that the system either not be deployed or, if it was, that the U.S. be allowed to "jam" it when needed!

Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities.  As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

Offline Analyst

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #25 on: 01/14/2008 05:53 pm »
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Analyst - 14/1/2008  2:03 PM

The US has not proven to be a reliable partner in many matters.

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Jim - 14/1/2008  2:27 PM

I will ignore that comment since the items you list are insignificant and pales when the US has been the most reliable partner in NATO.

The US can always use WWII and the Cold War as examples of good partnership.  And it won't get over used.

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Blackstar - 14/1/2008  6:33 PM

As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

No comment needed.

Analyst

Offline kevin-rf

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #26 on: 01/14/2008 06:16 pm »
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Blackstar - 14/1/2008  12:33 PM
Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities.  As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

And we know how effective the iraqi gps jammers where. Didn't the DOD say they took it(them) out with GPS guided munitions ;)

Despite everything we see on GPS jamming the fact is the GPS and Galileo are very directional signals that come from above in the sky. In a well designed munition receiver the jammer must be above not below the munition.
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Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #27 on: 01/14/2008 06:33 pm »

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Jim - 14/1/2008  6:07 PM

Quote
edkyle99 - 14/1/2008  11:46 AM

I am one U.S. citizen who completely understands Europe's reasoning for creating Galileo.  GPS had "Selective Availability" built into its design, meaning that civilians (Europeans and U.S. citizens included) were not always guaranteed good navigation data.


which is no longer in the design

   
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Blackstar 14/1/2008  6:33 PM
Quote
edkyle99 - 14/1/2008 10:46 AM
When Galileo was proposed, the U.S. response was to recommended that the system either not be deployed or, if it was, that the U.S. be allowed to "jam" it when needed!


Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities. As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it. We were just trying to be polite."

OK, the "selective capability" won't be built in future GPS satellites.
But if they can jam their own satellites when they want (the same way they would do it with our Galileo satellites when necessary), then you actually don't need the "selective capability" built in at all.

But edkyle99 is right about the fact that civilians don't get a guaranteed good navigation data from GPS.
One of applications of satellite navigation could be guiding airplanes so they can fly shorter routes.
The reason this is not the case today is that the GPS signal isn't guaranteed to be always reliable by the US Air Force, while the precision is very important, especially during landing and take off.
The difference between GPS and Galileo is that Galileo guarantees you the signal is correct, and when it isn't correct because of a failed satellite, Galileo will tell you while GPS doesn't.

From the ESA article on Why Europe needs Galileo:
"[Galileo] will guarantee availability of the service under all but the most extreme circumstances and will inform users within seconds of a failure of any satellite. This will make it suitable for applications where safety is crucial, such as running trains, guiding cars and landing aircraft."

Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline meiza

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #28 on: 01/14/2008 06:55 pm »
Of course it makes sense to put a capability in Galileo so it can be turned off. For example if some rogue nation is shooting Galileo guided munitions at USA or Europe.

Offline ryan mccabe

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #29 on: 01/14/2008 07:27 pm »
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kevin-rf - 14/1/2008  1:16 PM

Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  12:33 PM
Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities.  As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

And we know how effective the iraqi gps jammers where. Didn't the DOD say they took it(them) out with GPS guided munitions ;)

The "GPS guided munitions" are somewhat misunderstood IMO. Hardly anything is targeted only with GPS data. Even the JDAM uses inertial navigation first with GPS inputs for refinement. Iraq may well have jammed GPS in some areas, but that wouldn't have done any good for the laser-ring gyros in the bombs headed their way.

I wonder if the DOD intentionally trumped-up the use of GPS weaponry so that our opponents would invest in jamming devices that would basically serve to give away their position?

Offline ryan mccabe

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #30 on: 01/14/2008 07:56 pm »

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ckiki lwai - 14/1/2008  1:33 PM

But edkyle99 is right about the fact that civilians don't get a guaranteed good navigation data from GPS. One of applications of satellite navigation could be guiding airplanes so they can fly shorter routes. The reason this is not the case today is that the GPS signal isn't guaranteed to be always reliable by the US Air Force, while the precision is very important, especially during landing and take off. The difference between GPS and Galileo is that Galileo guarantees you the signal is correct, and when it isn't correct because of a failed satellite, Galileo will tell you while GPS doesn't.

I don't see these as salient points:

1. GPS has several methods of ensuring the accuracy of the system and the means to shut-down a satellite that begins to transmit faulty data. The GPS constellation has more satellites on-orbit than necessary to maintain accuracy, which is as good a guarantee as any *

2. GPS is already approved for flight in instrument flight rules, and GPS hardware is already in thousands of commercial and general aircraft.
 

3. As for using satellite navigation for take-offs (??) and landings, neither GPS nor Galileo would have the accuracy to match ILS. A ground-based augmentation system is necessary for both systems, and the one already in-service (WAAS) uses GPS. The soon-to-be operational European counterpart (EGNOS) also uses GPS data until/if Galileo comes online. But if EGNOS already provides the precision augmentation Europe claims it will obtain with Galileo, you have to wonder what the point is again...

4. Like I said above, no critical system is guided purely by GPS. Nor will any system be guided purely by Galileo. So what's the real value of Galileo telling you when it isn't working? Anything critical already has a means of ignoring spurious data and using an alternative navigation mode.

 I'm with the skeptics. Every point for Galileo seems like a non-issue, or one with a much simpler technical work-around.

 
* - See: Tommy Boy for additional comments about guarantees...


Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #31 on: 01/14/2008 09:07 pm »
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kevin-rf - 14/1/2008  1:16 PM
Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  12:33 PM
Actually, the US proposal was that the Europeans put in the ability to turn it off in event of hostilities.  As a US official who was involved in the negotiations at the time once told me "Everybody knows that if we decide it is necessary, we _will_ jam it.  We were just trying to be polite."

And we know how effective the iraqi gps jammers where. Didn't the DOD say they took it(them) out with GPS guided munitions ;)

I don't think these things are comparable at all.  Comparing Iraq's ability to jam GPS (which they apparently tried ineffectively) to the US Air Force's ability to jam something is a non-starter.  My money would be on the USAF: if they wanted Galileo shut down, they could get it shut down.  

(Note: this would be a senior policy decision made by the President, not some USAF general.)

Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #32 on: 01/14/2008 09:09 pm »
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Sphereion - 14/1/2008  9:38 AM
Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  6:26 AM
Well, as an American, I have no problems with Europeans being taxed for an expensive system that is not really necessary.  Go right ahead and waste money.

That is very American of you  :laugh:

Well, I'm sure you have no problem with Americans wasting money on stupid things.  After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #33 on: 01/14/2008 09:15 pm »
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ckiki lwai - 14/1/2008  9:40 AM

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Blackstar - 13/1/2008  10:46 PM
The US was worried that once Galileo was started, European governments would switch their militaries over to it, and NATO would no longer have compatible weapons.
What do you mean with "not compatible weapons"?

Air-dropped bombs, for starters.  Also aircraft.

The issue was that it costs a lot of money to install navigation systems in aircraft and other weapons.  The Kosovo campaign demonstrated that Europe had not invested much in smart bombs.  

If you remember, there was this problem with a European country acting up, NATO decided to get involved and the only country that had the intelligence capabilities (i.e. satellites), aircraft, and smart munitions was--SURPRISE!--the United States.  So it was mostly American forces solving a problem in Europe's backyard.  (You're welcome, by the way.)

So after that the NATO countries started to talk about how important it was that they standardized systems and also that NATO invested in GPS equipment.  Officially, that was what the Europeans said would happen.  Galileo was only supposed to be used for civilian and not military purposes.  But the United States suspected (so did the British, and also the European members of NATO) that at some point the Galileo proponents would say "Hey, we invested a lot in Galileo and nobody is using it, so we need to get our militaries to buy Galileo equipment.  Let's not buy GPS equipment."

I don't think that has happened yet, but it will.

Just to be clear, while the Europeans reading this might think that me being an American is clouding my judgment on this, these kinds of policy disputes happen _all the time_ in NATO and in areas like military cooperation.  Trying to get everybody in the coalition to buy hardware that is compatible is a perennial issue.  It has been for 50 years.

Offline pierre

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Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #35 on: 01/15/2008 12:19 am »
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ckiki lwai - 14/1/2008  1:33 PM
[Galileo] will guarantee availability of the service under all but the most extreme circumstances and will inform users within seconds of a failure of any satellite. This will make it suitable for applications where safety is crucial, such as running trains, guiding cars and landing aircraft."

I think there's something legal tied into that as well--something like the EU will legally guarantee that the system will never fail, meaning that if it does fail and somebody loses money because of that (like a plane crashing, or you cannot track your taxicabs), then they will reimburse for the loss or something.

That sounded dubious to me.  I got the sense that they were trying to justify the system by promising things that nobody really cares about and that nobody would be able to use.

The basic problem for them is that GPS is free.

Offline Sphereion

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #36 on: 01/17/2008 07:35 am »
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Blackstar - 14/1/2008  4:09 PM

After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?

No. America does what it wants and expects the world to do what America wants.

Offline Chris Bergin

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Sphereion - 17/1/2008  8:35 AM

Quote
Blackstar - 14/1/2008  4:09 PM

After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?

No. America does what it wants and expects the world to do what America wants.

You're losing context there. His full sentence was:

"Well, I'm sure you have no problem with Americans wasting money on stupid things. After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?"

Not sure how anyone can draw exception to that.
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Offline Blackstar

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #38 on: 01/17/2008 03:44 pm »
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Chris Bergin - 17/1/2008  2:48 AM

Quote
Sphereion - 17/1/2008  8:35 AM
No. America does what it wants and expects the world to do what America wants.

You're losing context there. His full sentence was:

"Well, I'm sure you have no problem with Americans wasting money on stupid things. After all, it's our money, and it's your money; we can do whatever we want with it, right?"

Not sure how anyone can draw exception to that.

I think he was making a sarcastic anti-American comment, and I have no problem with that.

The Europeans are entitled to spend their money any way that they want.  I don't think this is the best way for them to do it, however.  What they really need is a better system for military intel, so that they don't have to rely upon the Americans for it, and don't complain when the Americans don't immediately provide the intel that they want (what happened during Kosovo).  However, the problem is that doing this is essentially funding a military system, and so it is less popular than funding something that is viewed as a civilian system with military uses (Galileo).  

Plus, I think Galileo is viewed as a bigger gravy train, because it requires a lot of satellites (as opposed to a few intel satellites) and so the launch providers can sell more rockets and the satellite builders can build more satellites and therefore the corporations are happy.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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RE: Cost of Galileo satnav to skyrocket, German mag says
« Reply #39 on: 01/17/2008 05:54 pm »
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Blackstar - 17/1/2008  4:44 PM

Plus, I think Galileo is viewed as a bigger gravy train, because it requires a lot of satellites (as opposed to a few intel satellites) and so the launch providers can sell more rockets and the satellite builders can build more satellites and therefore the corporations are happy.

No the EU thinks Galileo will generate lots of manufacturing jobs selling GPS receivers to the general public.  That electronics manufacturing jobs moved to Asia never to return in the 1960s is something the EUs 1950s mentality cannot understand.

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