Author Topic: Possible Missions for SLS Block I  (Read 93197 times)

Offline MP99

Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #20 on: 12/13/2012 04:06 pm »
I wonder if NASA could conjure up an "interim" system that used two serial stages.  An ICPS topped by a Centaur or a four-meter diameter Delta IV upper stage would be able to boost more than 40 tonnes to escape velocity, 17-plus tonnes more than ICPS alone.

A 40t payload balanced on top of a long-thin Centaur balanced on top of ICPS. That sounds like it would be a tremendous hammerhead, and I'm having trouble picturing how it would be physically constructed.

Twin Delta stages sounds a little less daunting, but even so it sounds like both upper stages would need strengthening.

cheers, Martin

Offline MP99

Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #21 on: 12/13/2012 04:16 pm »
I find it unlikely that DCSS's structure can support an 80t payload through the high G's at core stage burnout without at least strengthening the H2 tank substantially.

Isn't that what item 3) in the above RFI is about? At least partially?

ISTM (3) is about aero loads from the PLF, which would only be applicable to relatively small payloads. You'd assume that an 80t payload would be big enough that it would require an 8.4m+ PLF, in which case ICPS would be encapsulated and therefore isolated from aero loads anyway.

ICPS would only see aero loads if it has a DIVH PLF mounted above it instead of an 8.4m PLF encapsulating it. However, in this situation it needs to cope with combined mass of the payload and aero loads.

cheers, Martin

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #22 on: 12/13/2012 04:41 pm »
This is the briefing document that went out with the Request for Information (Solicitation Number: NNC13ZMX001L) on fairings & payload adapters listed above.

http://prod.nais.nasa.gov/eps/eps_data/154120-OTHER-001-001.docx
(pdf also attached)

Might help with the discussion.

Offline ChileVerde

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #23 on: 12/14/2012 02:08 pm »
This is the briefing document that went out with the Request for Information (Solicitation Number: NNC13ZMX001L) on fairings & payload adapters listed above.

http://prod.nais.nasa.gov/eps/eps_data/154120-OTHER-001-001.docx
(pdf also attached)

Might help with the discussion.

Thank you. For the sake of providing some visual stimulation, I attach three figures from the .docx version.
"I can’t tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #24 on: 12/14/2012 02:21 pm »
Use of basicly the same 5m faring as the Delta IV Heavy faring with a capability of launching a 23mt payload into cislunar or Earth escape trajectories is all that is really needed for most payloads.

They are seeking info to see if development of the 8.4m faring option is needed at this time to do larger volume payloads with the Block I iCPS stack or for LEO no iCPS and a full 70mt size payload.

Offline ChileVerde

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #25 on: 12/14/2012 03:58 pm »
They are seeking info to see if development of the 8.4m faring option is needed at this time to do larger volume payloads with the Block I iCPS stack...

I was surprised to see 8.4m + iCPS.  Any ideas as to what missions/payloads that combination might be needed for?
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Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #26 on: 12/14/2012 04:48 pm »
They are seeking info to see if development of the 8.4m faring option is needed at this time to do larger volume payloads with the Block I iCPS stack...

I was surprised to see 8.4m + iCPS.  Any ideas as to what missions/payloads that combination might be needed for?

A specific payload no. But something tha weighs 23mt and is to big to fit in a 5m faring such as possibly the Gateway hardware.

Offline ChileVerde

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #27 on: 12/14/2012 04:51 pm »
A specific payload no. But something that weighs 23mt and is to big to fit in a 5m faring such as possibly the Gateway hardware.

That thought just crossed my mind too. Bigelow?
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Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #28 on: 12/14/2012 06:42 pm »
A specific payload no. But something that weighs 23mt and is to big to fit in a 5m faring such as possibly the Gateway hardware.

That thought just crossed my mind too. Bigelow?

A BA 330 needs only a 5m faring but weighs ~19mt +- a mt or so.

Offline sdsds

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #29 on: 12/14/2012 07:36 pm »
There are reports of wind tunnel testing of the Orion variant and the 8.4m cargo variant. But no similar reports for the 5m cargo variant. Is this a case where different parts of NASA are marching to the beats of different drummers?
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #30 on: 12/14/2012 07:51 pm »
There are reports of wind tunnel testing of the Orion variant and the 8.4m cargo variant. But no similar reports for the 5m cargo variant. Is this a case where different parts of NASA are marching to the beats of different drummers?

I think that the issue is that the 5m fairing variant is being thought about and even made into PowerPoint slides but hasn't been adopted or base-lined so there is no authorisation for physical tests.  The 5m variant is probably nothing more than a cost-cutting thought experiment in case the budget is trimmed more and the 8.4m PLF has to be scrapped.
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Offline cro-magnon gramps

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #31 on: 12/14/2012 09:03 pm »
Could NASA be thinking of using SLS B1 as a cargo carrier to the ISS to take modules sized (?) 24 ft x 80 ft, 70 mt, for building a L2 "Gateway" SS... a Space Vehicle for NEA or a SEP of similar weight or proportions... how advanced in their thinking (dreams) could NASA be internally...

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Offline edkyle99

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #32 on: 12/14/2012 11:47 pm »
I wonder if NASA could conjure up an "interim" system that used two serial stages.  An ICPS topped by a Centaur or a four-meter diameter Delta IV upper stage would be able to boost more than 40 tonnes to escape velocity, 17-plus tonnes more than ICPS alone.

A 40t payload balanced on top of a long-thin Centaur balanced on top of ICPS. That sounds like it would be a tremendous hammerhead, and I'm having trouble picturing how it would be physically constructed.

Twin Delta stages sounds a little less daunting, but even so it sounds like both upper stages would need strengthening.

cheers, Martin
One possibility would be a construct like the Ariane 5 Sylda, which transfers payload forces around, rather than through, the lower payload.

Stacked Delta stages might work better, because only the LH2 tank would have to bear the load.

But, of course, the best option is a properly sized stage.  ICPS tanks could be stretched quite a bit and still work with a single RL10B-2.  Such a setup could carry more than 42 tonnes of propellant, allowing more than 35 tonnes to be boosted to escape velocity.  This seems an attractive option to me. 

A larger stage would need more engines, but could also accelerate up to 40 tonnes to escape - all of this assuming a Block 1 core and boosters.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/14/2012 11:49 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline clongton

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #33 on: 12/15/2012 12:30 am »
They are seeking info to see if development of the 8.4m faring option is needed at this time to do larger volume payloads with the Block I iCPS stack...

I was surprised to see 8.4m + iCPS.  Any ideas as to what missions/payloads that combination might be needed for?

Lunar Lander (Altair). After all, aren't they still building Ares-5?
« Last Edit: 12/15/2012 12:31 am by clongton »
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Offline spectre9

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #34 on: 12/15/2012 08:25 am »
Yep, 4 man all LH2 with airlock.  ;D

I think that's what NASA is hoping for anyway.

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #35 on: 12/15/2012 09:46 am »
Yep, 4 man all LH2 with airlock.  ;D

I think that's what NASA is hoping for anyway.

Is Altair what Congress wants?
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Offline edkyle99

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #36 on: 12/15/2012 04:51 pm »
Yep, 4 man all LH2 with airlock.  ;D

I think that's what NASA is hoping for anyway.

Is Altair what Congress wants?
NASA has no program in place to return humans to the lunar surface.  President Obama cancelled the program aimed to achieve that goal.

If NASA had the authority and funding, it could do lunar landings with Block 1, or with EELVs, or with other rockets.  But it isn't happening.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 12/15/2012 04:52 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline clongton

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #37 on: 12/15/2012 06:52 pm »
 I mentioned Altair/Ares-5 with tongue in cheek. It wasn't meant to be a serious comment.
After posting here for almost as long as NSF has been up ya'll should know me by now.  ;D
« Last Edit: 12/15/2012 06:52 pm by clongton »
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #38 on: 12/15/2012 07:03 pm »
Yep, 4 man all LH2 with airlock.  ;D

I think that's what NASA is hoping for anyway.

Is Altair what Congress wants?
NASA has no program in place to return humans to the lunar surface.  President Obama cancelled the program aimed to achieve that goal.

If NASA had the authority and funding, it could do lunar landings with Block 1, or with EELVs, or with other rockets.  But it isn't happening.

 - Ed Kyle

Altair had already been cancelled or put on indefinite hold before Obama axed CxP. If anything, we are now closer to the moon than before, since the distraction of Ares I has been removed, and SLS will give us an Ares V capacity launcher before CxP would have.

Of course it won't happen with the current crew in Congress, since they care more about having their districts build the largest rocket ever (slowly) rather than building real exploration hardware.

Offline sdsds

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Re: Possible Missions for SLS Block I
« Reply #39 on: 12/15/2012 11:09 pm »
the 5m fairing variant is being thought about and even made into PowerPoint slides but hasn't been adopted or base-lined so there is no authorisation for physical tests.  The 5m variant is probably nothing more than a cost-cutting thought experiment in case the budget is trimmed more and the 8.4m PLF has to be scrapped.

Yes, you phrased that very nicely. The more cynical view is that NASA somehow adopted a plan of record that involves creating the largest payload fairing ever built. Congress didn't tell them to do that. The President didn't tell them to do that. Yet that's somehow the "baseline." One wonders how often the NASA baseline can be accurately described as "delusional" and more to the point, how much waste at NASA directly results from delusional thinking....
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