Author Topic: SpaceX conducts additional Falcon 9 improvements ahead of busy schedule  (Read 43813 times)

Offline GregA

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I've more gotten the sense that S2 reuse with Falcon 9s is certainly *possible*, but would leave F9-R with too little payload to GTO to be commercially worthwhile<snip>
Except... the assumption buried in there is that F9 and FH primarily fly to GTO.
<snip>
F9's GTO performance is sub-par for the rocket's size due to the relative inefficiency of the gas-generator-powered and keorolox-fueled S2. On the other hand, its LEO performance is quite the opposite, and much better able to absorb any S2 reuse penalty while leaving a commercially relevant amount of performance for payloads.

Say, for example, a SpaceX constellation of small LEO comsats, where a penny saved on launch costs is a penny earned, since SpaceX will have only themselves to foot the bill.
Yes the concept of a reusable (or custom?) S2 for the Alphabet/Google satellite business is interesting.

The cost benefit of introducing a 2nd stage that diverges too strongly from these design, manufacturing efficiencies in order to facilitate return/reuse of a new 2nd stage are currently not present. IMO. Which is why I suspect they moved away from that and have now modified the current F9 design to accommodate returning the core stage even when delivering higher mass to more difficult orbits, while not disrupting their basic design and manufacturing layout efficiencies to any great extent.

Yes generally they want to keep their efficiencies by not diverging much.

If they're going to design something new, would they do so in a bigger way (and as part of a learning experience for Mars)? Methane propulsion? Something else?



Offline macpacheco

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I don't believe SpaceX will do a fully reusable Merlin based LV.
The ISP is too low.
Elon Musk said a while back something like we figured out how to significantly reduce our manufacturing costs and scale, so full reuse isn't a big hurry.
Reusing the first stage will be a huge game changer.
Full reuse will wait until Raptor/LNG rockets show up.
« Last Edit: 09/08/2015 05:58 am by macpacheco »
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Offline GreenShrike

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However, I agree, that in the future, if they can solve the technical and cost implications of 2nd stage expendable vs. re-use, they will attempt to do so. But I'm not seeing it anytime soon. There's bigger fish to fry right now. So to speak. But this is SpaceX, so who knows..... :D

Bigger fish indeed, for now. For years, even.

Elon, however, seems to be playing the long game -- and as the seasons and years have come and gone, I've noted that "not soon" has a distressingly inexorable way of somehow becoming "tomorrow". ;-)

Yes the concept of a reusable (or custom?) S2 for the Alphabet/Google satellite business is interesting.

Custom, eh? :-)

Well, I wonder how much SYLDAs cost, and what SpaceX thinks of all the dispensers abandoned in orbit.

4000 sats at 40 sats per FH-R is still a hundred flights -- more if FHs can lift fewer or if F9-Rs are tapped to deliver some. That's a *lot* of flights -- even a low rate of savings can add up to a substantial R&D budget.


I don't believe SpaceX will do a fully reusable Merlin based LV.
The ISP is too low.

Certainly, for high energy orbits.


Elon Musk said a while back something like we figured out how to significantly reduce our manufacturing costs and scale, so reuse isn't a big hurry.

F9-R/FH-R can compete just fine in the current GTO market, so, no, there's no big hurry. Comsat operators are happy to pay for shiny new S2s with every launch, so SpaceX doesn't have to foot the bill anyway.

And won't -- until they want to fly a couple hundred LEO flights on their own dime, anyway. Then being able to save $5m or $10m per flight might seem worth investing some R&D into.


Full reuse will wait until Raptor/LNG rockets show up.

Full reuse will wait until SpaceX decides that it's commercially viable to pursue. Maybe that'll be when BFR/Raptor flies. Maybe it won't.

Either way, it'll be several years before SpaceX has to crunch the numbers and make the call.

And I'm pretty certain there'll be plenty of other excitement to keep us entertained between then and now. ;-)
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Online guckyfan

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I don't believe SpaceX will do a fully reusable Merlin based LV.
The ISP is too low.

Absolutely. They don't need upper stage reusability at this point for economic reasons. They may want to do it anyway because the step from nothing to a reusable MCT is huge. That can be the motivation to do a completely new upper stage for Falcon. A testbed for what is to come.

For me Chris Bergins remark points in that direction. They have not decided on doing it yet but they may. I would be glad to see it. If it improves Falcon profitability, then all the better.

[speculation]Include all technologies which they may want to use for MCT. A new upper stage with composite tanks, a wider diameter, methane/LOX, a subscale Raptor. At a scale that unlike Raptor can be fully 3D printed, not only parts. Probably less thrust than overpowered Merlin vac. Not cheap but a step on the way to MCT at much lower cost than jumping all the way.[/speculation]

Offline GregA

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Yes the concept of a reusable (or custom?) S2 for the Alphabet/Google satellite business is interesting.

Custom, eh? :-)

Well, I wonder how much SYLDAs cost, and what SpaceX thinks of all the dispensers abandoned in orbit.

4000 sats at 40 sats per FH-R is still a hundred flights -- more if FHs can lift fewer or if F9-Rs are tapped to deliver some. That's a *lot* of flights -- even a low rate of savings can add up to a substantial R&D budget.

And replacing the satellites every 5 years makes that 20 flights a year (heavy). Would be a great sampler of reusability if they had a weekly launch reusing the same rocket stage 1 and stage 2 dozens of times or more.

Offline MP99



However, I agree, that in the future, if they can solve the technical and cost implications of 2nd stage expendable vs. re-use, they will attempt to do so. But I'm not seeing it anytime soon. There's bigger fish to fry right now. So to speak. But this is SpaceX, so who knows..... :D

Bigger fish indeed, for now. For years, even.

Elon, however, seems to be playing the long game -- and as the seasons and years have come and gone, I've noted that "not soon" has a distressingly inexorable way of somehow becoming "tomorrow". ;-)

There are examples of things going the other way - EG crossfeed is now pushed down the road. In general, engineering reality seems to take place a little later in the engineering cycle.

However, it does make sense to make S1 landing / recovery / reuse a mature technology before doing it once for S2. And a recoverable S2 probably is only going to LEO.

But, with ULA pushing distributed launch... perhaps at some point F9-R with S2-R will refuel an F9 commsat launch. But only if two launches (one with S2 expended ) is cheaper than FH with S2 expended.

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Online OneSpeed

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Great article with lots of interesting data.

I did stumble over this sentence:

Quote
SpaceX opted against recovery attempts of this stage in its current configuration.

It does sound like there might be a new configuration coming that would be reusable. Perhaps I am overinterpreting?

They have said there's a potential path with a different type of second stage.

Powered by a Raptor?

Offline Okie_Steve

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MethaLox? Elon did say that ther Raptor sweet spot was surprisingly low even with the manifold.

Would the be any/enough benefit to GEO to make it worth thinking about?

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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We are wandering away from the thread purpose: the changes prior to RTF.

These changes can also be in the GSE (Ground Support Equipment). The stated reason for all of this work is to fix nagging little problems to improve performance, increase reliability, or to reduce costs.

A software analogy is that after awhile many small bug fixes start to make a jumble of the good design practices of KISS. It takes some minor rewrite of heavily bug fixed modules to straighten them out so that they are understandable again from the jumble. Same can happen to hardware in that minor changes can build up to the point where the the system effectiveness is affected. A redesign of such a subsytem is required to regain its clean design for  effective performance, reliability, and costs (for manufacture, test, operation, and repair).

Offline philw1776

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Great article Chris! It includes exactly the right level of information for readers like me. Thanks!

full reuse will have to wait the opening of a new market that a fully reusable F9 and/or FH can commercially target with success. GTO flights are not that market.

Well said. Also, engineering for full reuse could distract from the tasks at hand, i.e. return to flight and the simultaneous first flight of F9 Full Thrust. That probably involves enough work to keep everyone busy for awhile....

(Personally I hope they find a Mars architecture built on full reuse of F9-like vehicles filling a propellant depot in LEO. That propellant would then be transferred to the MCT for TMI. But that definitely seems like "future work.")

Way too many hundreds of metric tons of propellant needed for puny F9s to be effective refueling MCTs in LEO.

Now returning to topic.
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Offline Chris Bergin

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/09/spacex-conducts-falcon-9-improvements-busy-schedule/

Edit to the above article as there's now a first stage raised on to the *NEW* test stand at McGregor as of today, per L2.
« Last Edit: 09/08/2015 09:36 pm by Chris Bergin »
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Offline DecoLV

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Really good and thorough article Chris. Nice work.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Great article, Chris!

Offline Chris Bergin

Thanks chaps! Although I'm thinking another article today as it's all going on at McGregor....and the schedule seems to be changing again (not surprising, it's still prelim). Got a busy day at work, but that Full Thrust Stage turning up - much to the interest of the Rocket Cows of McGregor (they are humorous cows!) = milestone will need to be reported shortly. Will be a shorter article as you don't need to read about the background again when this current article is already on site.
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Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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I noticed you said they are using the new FH stand for the first time. I will expect that there is going to be a little longer time on the stand than previous to test the stand as well. I wonder does this stand site have prop densification?

Offline Roy_H

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http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/09/spacex-conducts-falcon-9-improvements-busy-schedule/

Edit to the above article as there's now a first stage raised on to the *NEW* test stand at McGregor as of today, per L2.

Tut-tut. You said "EDIT: On Tuesday morning, engineers raised a first stage onto the new test stand that will be used for both Falcon 9 v1.2 and Falcon Heavy testing."

There is no F9 v1.2 only v1.1 full thrust or F9-FT?. We must all stop using the ver 1.2!
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Offline Chris Bergin

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/09/spacex-conducts-falcon-9-improvements-busy-schedule/

Edit to the above article as there's now a first stage raised on to the *NEW* test stand at McGregor as of today, per L2.

Tut-tut. You said "EDIT: On Tuesday morning, engineers raised a first stage onto the new test stand that will be used for both Falcon 9 v1.2 and Falcon Heavy testing."

There is no F9 v1.2 only v1.1 full thrust or F9-FT?. We must all stop using the ver 1.2!

Mwhaha. I know, but I had already used it. Next article will "introduce" the lack of that 1.2 stuff. :)

And oldAtlas_Eguy, doing some digging on that very thing. Pretty sure as they have a plan for the pads.
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Offline Chris Bergin

Second article done.

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/09/full-thrust-falcon-9-stage-testing-mcgregor/

Past 3am here and I'm literally falling off my chair, so any corrections, please PM me! :)
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Offline bombyx

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Thanks for this article .

Quote
  It is currently the only test stand that can be utilized for the upgraded Falcon 9’s slightly increased length  

Has the first stage length also  increased ?  ???

 
« Last Edit: 09/10/2015 02:33 pm by bombyx »

Offline Hywel1995

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Thanks for this article .

Quote
  It is currently the only test stand that can be utilized for the upgraded Falcon 9’s slightly increased length  

Has the first stage length also  increased ?  ???

 

Its the Second Stage and the Interstage which has had the increase. I think Stage 1 is the same length.

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