Author Topic: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)  (Read 124188 times)

Offline chipguy

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Interesting piece of news, albeit dated, which I have not seen on NSF.
Anybody willing to bet that client is not ULA?

"One of Roush’s aerospace projects includes additively manufacturing engine components for an undisclosed aerospace cryogenic propulsion system."

I guess that depends on whether you interpret "cryogenic" narrowly
as rocket shorthand for LH2.

By wider usage LOX/LCH4 are considered cryogenic too and I can
think of at least two potential customers that aren't ULA.

Offline Jim

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #221 on: 05/18/2018 04:41 pm »
Interesting piece of news, albeit dated, which I have not seen on NSF.
Anybody willing to bet that client is not ULA?

"One of Roush’s aerospace projects includes additively manufacturing engine components for an undisclosed aerospace cryogenic propulsion system."

I guess that depends on whether you interpret "cryogenic" narrowly
as rocket shorthand for LH2.

By wider usage LOX/LCH4 are considered cryogenic too and I can
think of at least two potential customers that aren't ULA.

RP-1 and LOX is cryogenic propulsion system too

Offline brickmack

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #222 on: 05/18/2018 04:59 pm »
We know Roush is the developer of the ICE for IVF, is there any other known launch company previously said to be using their services?

Offline docmordrid

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #223 on: 05/19/2018 06:59 am »
Roush is literally up the freeway  from here in Livonia, Michigan  but they have dozens of buildings in the Detroit area - a fast expanding high tech region.

On this Aerospace promo page is a graphic which looks like Vulcan,

https://www.roush.com/markets-we-serve/aerospace/

I see their Allen Park facility is looking for a "launch engineer."

Footnote: George Sowers is no longer at ULA.

He's Professor, Space Resources, Colorado School of Mines. Also  doing consulting work via Sowers Space Solutions.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/george-sowers-7a20a731

« Last Edit: 05/20/2018 06:06 am by docmordrid »
DM

Offline envy887

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #224 on: 05/19/2018 12:23 pm »
Roush is literally up the freeway  from here in Livonia, Michigan  but they have dozens of buildings in the Detroit area - a fast expanding high tech region.

On this Aerodpace promo page is a graphic which looks like Vulcan,

https://www.roush.com/markets-we-serve/aerospace/

I see their Allen Park facility is looking for a "launch engineer."

Footnote: George Sowers is no longer at ULA.

He's Professor, Space Resources, Colorado School of Mines. Also  doing consulting work via Sowers Space Solutions.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/george-sowers-7a20a731

That is a ULA render of Vulcan 441.

Offline jongoff

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #225 on: 08/08/2018 11:47 pm »
It may have been mentioned elsewhere, but ULA was awarded a $10M tipping point contract (a public-private partnership that requires ULA to match that $10M by at least 25%) today to flight demonstrate the IVF system on a Centaur flight within the next 3.5yrs.

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2018/08/08/nasa-announces-partnerships-develop-space-exploration-technologies/

~Jon

Offline speedevil

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #226 on: 08/09/2018 03:12 am »
It may have been mentioned elsewhere, but ULA was awarded a $10M tipping point contract (a public-private partnership that requires ULA to match that $10M by at least 25%) today to flight demonstrate the IVF system on a Centaur flight within the next 3.5yrs.

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2018/08/08/nasa-announces-partnerships-develop-space-exploration-technologies/
Would this also tend to encourage NASA payloads to be optimistic on their assessment of risks from IVF to their payload and encourage acceptance?

Offline Markstark

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #227 on: 08/09/2018 03:38 am »
EUS is getting delayed (or maybe worse) to the fourth SLS mission. I wonder if this investment  (though small) on ULA upper stages technology might hint at an alternate upper stage(s). Is NASA allowed to use IVF in their own projects with this partnership?

Offline brickmack

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #228 on: 08/09/2018 05:05 am »
IVF was (is?) under consideration for EUS, so its possible.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #229 on: 08/09/2018 06:58 am »
So.... possibly Vulcan-Centaur 5/"ACES-ish"  for both the test and early SLS?
DM

Offline Chasm

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #230 on: 08/09/2018 12:47 pm »
Could play out that way. (If there is an EUS. If new tech is not too much of a risk for it...)

Flying the experiment on Vulcan seems likely, easier to have it in a new contract than to modify (adding risk) an existing one.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #231 on: 08/09/2018 02:07 pm »
It only makes sense to develop a shared-use upper stage.  After all, that is how ICPS is used, shared with SLS and with Delta 4.  An "ICPS" is flying this weekend for Parker Solar Probe.  I wouldn't want to guess just yet which upper stage would be selected.  EELV-2 (see, I've already forgotten the new name for this program) will choose two launch systems.  Vulcan may or may not be one of them.

 - Ed Kyle 
« Last Edit: 08/09/2018 02:13 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline envy887

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #232 on: 08/09/2018 02:32 pm »
It only makes sense to develop a shared-use upper stage.  After all, that is how ICPS is used, shared with SLS and with Delta 4.  I wouldn't want to guess just yet which upper stage would be selected.  EELV-2 (see, I've already forgotten the new name for this program) will choose two launch systems.  Vulcan may or may not be one of them.

 - Ed Kyle

That kind of rocket lego usually results in very inefficient designs, if used between multiple boosters of very different sizes.

IVF itself should scale pretty well between systems, though.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #233 on: 08/09/2018 03:06 pm »
It only makes sense to develop a shared-use upper stage.  After all, that is how ICPS is used, shared with SLS and with Delta 4.  I wouldn't want to guess just yet which upper stage would be selected.  EELV-2 (see, I've already forgotten the new name for this program) will choose two launch systems.  Vulcan may or may not be one of them.

 - Ed Kyle

That kind of rocket lego usually results in very inefficient designs, if used between multiple boosters of very different sizes.

IVF itself should scale pretty well between systems, though.
Yes, but if there's not enough billions to develop EUS, using something extant could still offer substantial improvement.  Centaur 5+ Long will carry 77 tonnes of propellant, 2.87 times more than ICPS.  Omega Heavy upper stage might carry even more propellant.  Best of all, maybe, could be New Glenn second stage with its almost-EUS propellant load.

There are plenty of examples in NASA history.  Centaur flew on Atlas, Titan, and Atlas 5.  The Agency nearly flew it on Shuttle and at one point was deep into working on Saturn IB/Centaur.  Agena flew on Thor, Atlas, and Titan.  The Star 48 going up on Delta 4 Heavy has previously flown on Delta 2 and Minotaur 4/5.  It is also cataloged for Antares 232+. S-IVB, of course, flew on Saturns 5 and 1B.  Etc.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 08/09/2018 03:19 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline envy887

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #234 on: 08/09/2018 03:28 pm »
It only makes sense to develop a shared-use upper stage.  After all, that is how ICPS is used, shared with SLS and with Delta 4.  I wouldn't want to guess just yet which upper stage would be selected.  EELV-2 (see, I've already forgotten the new name for this program) will choose two launch systems.  Vulcan may or may not be one of them.

 - Ed Kyle

That kind of rocket lego usually results in very inefficient designs, if used between multiple boosters of very different sizes.

IVF itself should scale pretty well between systems, though.
Yes, but if there's not enough billions to develop EUS, using something extant could still offer substantial improvement.  Centaur 5+ Long will carry 77 tonnes of propellant, 2.87 times more than ICPS.  Omega Heavy upper stage might carry even more propellant.  Best of all, maybe, could be New Glenn second stage with its almost-EUS propellant load.

 - Ed Kyle

Yes, either would be better than DCSS.

The most useful part would be IVF, though. The 77-tonne Centaur with IVF could take 20 tonnes to LOP-G, leave 10 t there and return 10 t to LEO (or take 30 t to LOP-G and return to LEO empty). SLS could do this in 1 launch, or Vulcan in 3. New Glenn, with a similar cryogenic management system (which they also got a SBIR to work on) could do it in 2 launches with their larger rocket and upper stage.

IVF is that part that enables a lot of flexibility , and turns the small(ish) upper stage into an advantage due to lower dry mass - as long as it reaches orbit full or can be refilled.

Offline jongoff

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #235 on: 08/09/2018 03:41 pm »
Could play out that way. (If there is an EUS. If new tech is not too much of a risk for it...)

Flying the experiment on Vulcan seems likely, easier to have it in a new contract than to modify (adding risk) an existing one.

Yeah, I'm almost positive this will be on a Vulcan/Centaur V flight. It would be cool if they could convince NASA to consider IVF for EUS--it would make it a far more useful stage. Combine IVF and the CELSIUS insulation that Paragon won a Tipping Point contract for, and you could make EUS long lived enough to do Lunar Orbit Insertion instead of forcing Orion to do it. That would allow NASA to to put Gateway in LLO where it would be more useful for lunar surface ops, and would make SLS/EUS much more useful for taking cargo to the Moon.

All that said, I have no idea if NASA has bought into the idea of IVF on EUS at all.

~Jon

Offline jongoff

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #236 on: 08/09/2018 03:46 pm »
It only makes sense to develop a shared-use upper stage.  After all, that is how ICPS is used, shared with SLS and with Delta 4.  I wouldn't want to guess just yet which upper stage would be selected.  EELV-2 (see, I've already forgotten the new name for this program) will choose two launch systems.  Vulcan may or may not be one of them.

 - Ed Kyle

That kind of rocket lego usually results in very inefficient designs, if used between multiple boosters of very different sizes.

IVF itself should scale pretty well between systems, though.

And scaling could be in the form of just adding extra IVF modules. IIRC, four EUS is about the size that it would work well with four stock IVF modules. That would give you some pretty insane power capacity if you ever needed it, and would give you added thruster-out redundancy, and make it easier to give EUS enough control authority to enable rendezvous/prox-ops...

But yeah, I'd go with a common module design, and implement it across multiple stages, not try to force a common stage. Though I guess my old ACES/EUS concept (where you use a common engine/thrust structure/backside of the LOX tank between ACES and EUS) could possibly also work.

~Jon

Offline Markstark

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #237 on: 08/09/2018 04:14 pm »

Quote
Though I guess my old ACES/EUS concept (where you use a common engine/thrust structure/backside of the LOX tank between ACES and EUS) could possibly also work.

Is this on your blog somewhere?

Offline Chasm

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #238 on: 08/09/2018 06:51 pm »
Looks like this blog entry from 2013.


And we finally knew why ULA selected RL10 once again.  ;D

As long as we talk about the same engine choice a (mostly) common engine section / thrust structure would make sense. There are only so many ways to plumb it after all. Since thrust stays the same "just" add a 8.4m adapter ring... Doubling the amount of IVF pods from 2 to 4 should be simple.
That said from my perspective sense and SLS have a rough relationship...

Talking about long duration time upper stages I'm also quite interested in the $10M contract for Blue. Cyrogenic lunar lander.
Just landing the thing, or keeping the lander fueled on the way to Lunar orbit also included.

Offline jongoff

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Re: ULA Innovation: Integrated Vehicle Fluids (IVF)
« Reply #239 on: 08/10/2018 04:26 am »
Looks like this blog entry from 2013.


And we finally knew why ULA selected RL10 once again.  ;D

As long as we talk about the same engine choice a (mostly) common engine section / thrust structure would make sense. There are only so many ways to plumb it after all. Since thrust stays the same "just" add a 8.4m adapter ring... Doubling the amount of IVF pods from 2 to 4 should be simple.
That said from my perspective sense and SLS have a rough relationship...

This is why I'm still annoyed that EUS wasn't properly competed like it should've been. If ULA wasn't owned by Boeing/LM, they would've had grounds for protesting the sole-sourcing.

~Jon

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