Mars Colonisation

[omits]

Will nations combine to put Humans on Mars or will we end up with separate missions?

[high road]

The same groups you see today IMO: A group lead by the US, and a China-Russia group.

[omits]

I guess they have a 'competitive advantage'!

[Vahe231991]

Did any scientists or other figures in Soviet society advocate the colonization of Mars?

[RoadWithoutEnd]

Will nations combine to put Humans on Mars or will we end up with separate missions?

Yes. 

Hopefully.

Humanity grows best when there are many roads.

[Robotbeat]

Did any scientists or other figures in Soviet society advocate the colonization of Mars?

The Soviet Cosmists firmly believed in the settlement of space and other worlds.

[spacenut]

Money might be a problem for Russia.  China will have to get better technology, but they have the money. 

We will have to wait until Starship gets operational to see if/how NASA will come on board with SpaceX. 

Launches to LEO have to become cheaper.  Eventually going beyond Mars may require nuclear, which will require NASA. 

[tequilashooter]

After Rogozins trampoline remark it took Musk 6 in a half years which is like an enternity to send a crew to the ISS and the seats sold for that are way higher than the advertised falcon 9 costs. I dont even think he has docked anything in the ISS despite all the talk with nauka until it made a successfully docking. So getting 2 100 ton spacecrafts for one to fuel the other I will give a very optimistic 10 year time frame

Also the idea that they will simply "manufacture" in-situ the hundreds of tons of rocket fuel that they will require for the return jouney. The last time I looked, none of those nations that have significant perma-frost areas (ie Russia and Canada) have ever developed a pilot plant to extract frozen ground water and convert it into LOX for oxidiser, or to extract minute traces of methane in the atmisphere and liquify it for fuel. Mars doesn't have any significant methane sources, despite the hyperventilation over trace quantities in the atmosphere.

My challenge to these Space-X fans is to build a small nuke-powered pilot plant in the Canadian or Alaskan wilderness and demonstrate the feasibility of in-situ fuel manufacture using components that could reasonably be carried in a stripped down "Starship" (Gods, how I hate even writing that word..) and which can be assembled, commissioned and operated by a skeleton crew (or better yet, by robots). So show that that sabatier process works on earth, how long it will take before getting the starship to leave Mar's atmosphere. I am looking at a longer timeframe than what I gave on the orbital refueling process.

Rogozin estimated a 8-10 year time frame to get a man to mars last year on August but only if they are given adequate funding which makes it sound like they are not doing the Space X approach but with something nuclear sounding  more simple than orbital refueling or mining for fuel. So with Nordstream 2 almost built and getting arctic oil projects to have trade routes with the Indians and Chinese later it might happen. If they managed to land a 20-30 ton nuclear tug on Jupiter's moon in 2030 while Space X is still on the orbital refueling phase than were screwed. Even if Space X or the Chinese did get to Mars before the Russians, *knock on wood* I dont see the timeframes feasible for space expoloration or colonization beyond Mars while still using chemical rockets without switching to MPD thrusters like the Zeus nuclear spacecraft for project nuklon.

[spacenut]

Methane will be manufactured using Mars atmosphere (CO2) and Mars water.  Hydrogen will be extracted from water and combined with carbon extracted from CO2 to produce methane.  The oxygen left over from these extractions will be liquified along with the methane for rocket fuel.

The methane will not be extracted from the air or water as there is very little methane on Mars.  Water and carbon dioxide are much more abundant.

This is called the Sabitier process.  It requires solar power, which will be taken on the first few Starships to deploy for the power needed to extract water from ice and extract the carbon out of the carbon dioxide.  These Starships will go 2 years before human Starships to be making fuel and lox during that 2 years for the human Starships to refuel from to return to earth.  It is all written about in the various threads on this website for the last 10 years or so.  It is also what Zurban suggested back in 1992. 

[tequilashooter]

I get it, but I think it would rather be more re-assuring that this could be done on earth 1st. Has the company demonstrated to us the process and used that process on a Starship yet? I am just curious.

[spacenut]

Great Plains Synfuel is producing 1500 MW of synthetic natural gas in North Dakota. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction

So it can be done.  A source of carbon and hydrogen (water and carbon dioxide) is needed to make this process work. 

It is being done on the ISS to get rid of excess CO2 breathed out by the crewmembers.  They use a form of Sabatier to make more potable water and breathable air with methane as a by-product. 

The process is simple but does require power.  Power will come from the solar panels that will be attached to the Starship and extra solar panels that will be deployed from the cargo carried by the first few Starships. 

Musk mentioned there would be around 6 cargo Starships going to Mars for every crew Starship initially to get everything up and running for fuel production, power production, water production, greenhouses, habitats, etc.  As it expands over time, eventually ammonia production (for fertilizer production), mining, smelting of metals, glass production, etc will take place to expand the colony.  Musk said he wanted a fleet of 1,000 Starships.  He now can produce one every 3 months at Boca, Chica.  He is planning to build Starship production in Florida also. 

Starships will be reusable, and with clean burning methane for the engines, more flights per Starship without refurbishment than with F9.  His goal is to send flotillas of Starships to Mars during the synods Mars is closest to Earth to achieve colonization.  He wants it done in his lifetime.  So far, in the last 10-12 years he is getting it done.  Worldwide Starlink services will pay for Mars colonization. 

Go back and read all the threads.  Exciting times we live in. 

[tequilashooter]

Sooooo we still dont know when this is going to be done but we are assuming this will be done or demonstrated after the orbital refueling phase is done correct? your wiki source says 1500 MW by using coal not the CO2 or hydrogen you were talking about. 1500MW is that megawatts does that help with the amount of volume being made of liquid methane? the only thing I found useful was this because it actually mentions the amount of volume being produced even though its gas and not liquid.

In France, the AFUL Chantrerie, located in Nantes, started in November 2017 the demonstrator MINERVE. This methanation unit of 14 Nm3 / day was carried out by Top Industrie, with the support of Leaf. This installation is used to feed a CNG station and to inject methane into the natural gas boiler.[8]

Starship has a propellant capacity of 1,200 metric tons of liquid methane and liquid oxygen.Please correct me If I am wrong but it looks like we have a gas to liquid conversion here http://www.cts-my.com/conversion.html

https://h2tools.org/hyarc/calculator-tools/hydrogen-conversions-calculator nm3 is stating cubic meters so I put the value of 14 and put volume of gas to cubic meters to convert it to volume of liquid in liters I got 16.56 liters.https://www.thecalculatorsite.com/conversions/weighttovolume.php I chose methane 1,200 metric tons is 1,200,000kg. So I put the density of methane of 0.657  put convert from kg to liters and than 1,200,000kg I got 1200000 Kilograms into Liters:
For substance with density: 0.657 kg/L =
1826484.0182648 and we divide that by 16.56 we get 110294.928639 days because the only source I found on measurements was that one because 14nm3 from gas to liquid gave us 16.56 liters and that takes one day make is 302 years.

I mean do you have anyting that shows the sabatier process using co2 and hydrogen to make what amount of liquid methane in what said amount of time? I am just curious why one of the most serious phases like collecting fuel on Mars hasnt been thoroughly explained yet by the company. Starship runs on liquid methane

[spacenut]

Mars atmosphere is 98% CO2, you will extract the carbon out of the atmosphere.  Coal is almost pure carbon so it was used in North Dakota with success.  Extracting the oxygen from the carbon is just one mor step.  I don't know all the details, but it seems to me that SpaceX has figured this out.  They are running a little behind schedule, but was to send the first Starships to Mars in 2022, but it may have to wait until 2024.  They currently have to do Dear Moon fly around the moon and the moon lander for the Artemis program.  Remember Tesla also owns Solar City and can make the solar panels for SpaceX. 

Everything Musk has done is geared toward Mars colonization.  Tesla for electric vehicles and trucks, which can be modified to use on Mars.  Solar City which manufactures solar panels and solar shingles, which can be used on Mars.  Starlink services which will generate billions if millions worldwide sign up, and Musk said that profit will be used to finance Mars colonization.  And of course SpaceX which has developed the first reusable booster to lower launch costs.  Then Starship which will be fully reusable once they get the bugs out and the tests ran. 

Go back and read the SpaceX threads for the last several years.

SpaceX says the methane and lox can be made in a two year timeframe to fuel up human landers once water is found and can be extracted from ice.  The first landings are probably going to be in the Northern hemisphere of Mars and will have ice available. 

Again, you have to go back and read the information that has been posted on this website. 

Even the Navy has studied the possibility of using excess nuclear power on an aircraft carrier to use the Sabatier process to make jet fuel so it doesn't have to be delivered to the carrier by tanker ships.  They have or are studying the possibility of using liquid methane to power the jets.  I read this somewhere.  I think it was here somewhere.  Robert Zubrin knew about this in his Mars Direct proposals several years ago. 

[Robotbeat]

After Rogozins trampoline remark it took Musk 6 in a half years which is like an enternity to send a crew to the ISS and the seats sold for that are way higher than the advertised falcon 9 costs. I dont even think he has docked anything in the ISS despite all the talk with nauka until it made a successfully docking. So getting 2 100 ton spacecrafts for one to fuel the other I will give a very optimistic 10 year time frame

Also the idea that they will simply "manufacture" in-situ the hundreds of tons of rocket fuel that they will require for the return jouney. The last time I looked, none of those nations that have significant perma-frost areas (ie Russia and Canada) have ever developed a pilot plant to extract frozen ground water and convert it into LOX for oxidiser, or to extract minute traces of methane in the atmisphere and liquify it for fuel. Mars doesn't have any significant methane sources, despite the hyperventilation over trace quantities in the atmosphere.

My challenge to these Space-X fans is to build a small nuke-powered pilot plant in the Canadian or Alaskan wilderness and demonstrate the feasibility of in-situ fuel manufacture using components that could reasonably be carried in a stripped down "Starship" (Gods, how I hate even writing that word..) and which can be assembled, commissioned and operated by a skeleton crew (or better yet, by robots). So show that that sabatier process works on earth, how long it will take before getting the starship to leave Mar's atmosphere. I am looking at a longer timeframe than what I gave on the orbital refueling process.

Rogozin estimated a 8-10 year time frame to get a man to mars last year on August but only if they are given adequate funding which makes it sound like they are not doing the Space X approach but with something nuclear sounding  more simple than orbital refueling or mining for fuel. So with Nordstream 2 almost built and getting arctic oil projects to have trade routes with the Indians and Chinese later it might happen. If they managed to land a 20-30 ton nuclear tug on Jupiter's moon in 2030 while Space X is still on the orbital refueling phase than were screwed. Even if Space X or the Chinese did get to Mars before the Russians, *knock on wood* I dont see the timeframes feasible for space expoloration or colonization beyond Mars while still using chemical rockets without switching to MPD thrusters like the Zeus nuclear spacecraft for project nuklon.

It's pretty clear you don't know what you're talking about. Why would anyone extract oxygen from water on Earth (unless they're also extracting hydrogen) when oxygen is already in the air? SpaceX also never proposed extracting methane from the atmosphere on Mars. SpaceX is just proposing splitting water (perhaps extracted by evaporation) into hydrogen and oxygen, using the hydrogen with CO2 from the atmosphere to make methane via the Sabatier Process... with solar as the prime energy source.

These same processes work on ISS today. In addition to water launched from Earth, they recycle water from the cabin air (some from evaporation). The water is split into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen is uses with CO2 captured from the cabin air to make methane (and water) using an on-board Sabatier Reactor. They keep and recycle the water but vent the methane.

So again, you have no idea what you're talking about. I'll ignore you from here on out.

[Cheapchips]

Did any scientists or other figures in Soviet society advocate the colonization of Mars?

The Soviet Cosmists firmly believed in the settlement of space and other worlds.

There are some interpretations of Solaris as a critique of this and communism in general. Lem wasn't onboard with that though.

[tequilashooter]

Fascinating, so no one has any information on the Sabatier process being done on earth for liquid methane or even got information to how much on Mars can be done or how much power solar energy would draw on Mars other than just go with Musks idea which is pretty vague. I am being told to go back and reach information but based on what I am getting here is only going to be a waste of time for me.

They are running a little behind schedule, but was to send the first Starships to Mars in 2022, but it may have to wait until 2024. 

Your going to have to go way longer, before we even get to the starship orbital refueling phase have they docked anything on the ISS like any module?

SpaceX says the methane and lox can be made in a two year timeframe to fuel up human landers once water is found and can be extracted from ice.

I am trying to find anything on google search that says 2 year time frame.

[spacenut]

Tequilashooter,

I have told you, you have to dig and read in the files on THIS website for information.  Google may not have the details.  The ISS is doing this, they know how much power they are using and the Sabatier process is well know and has worked successfully on Earth using carbon from coal. 

Some things you may not know.

Solar panels are lighter, smaller, and more efficient than what was installed on ISS 20 years ago.  Thus power on Mars should not be a problem.  They even have solar panel film that can be just rolled out on the surface of Mars. 

They have detected a body of water on Mars larger than Lake Superior that is frozen and covered with dust.  This can easily be drilled, melted, extracted, and split into hydrogen and oxygen robotics.

Pulling in Martian atmosphere for carbon also isn't a problem. 

The landing Starships will have the storage capability to store the methane and oxygen.  Refrigeration equipment using solar power is also not hard. 

SpaceX currently docks both the Dragon capsules for humans and cargo, and has been doing it for a while.  The lunar module will be built from SpaceX's current second stage tooling using docking equipment from the Dragon.  This is a fairly large module for the Artemis program.  Read the threads on the Artemis program. 

Even if one Starship can only get a few gallons/liters a day on Mars per Starship, it adds up with six Starships.  Transferring fuel is not a problem once astronauts get there to connect all the piping.  Some can probably be done, again using robotics. 

SpaceX, unlike other companies, and countries, is focused and working harder than the others.  Government programs require bureaucracies and politics and things stretch out for years (SLS, and Angara rocket for example). 

I see by your posts you are new and don't realize that there are many rocket scientists on these forums, in all the various rocket companies and industries.  You have to read what is going on. 

[tequilashooter]

Just remember Space X has an amazing track record of projects they promised.

<youtube nonsense deleted>

The current perserverance rover is having problems collecting rocks yet I am expected to believe that Space X will do better in collecting and using Martian soil alot better than a company that has sent rovers there for years for fuel. I believe that Space X will eventually get to Mars but I am not one of "those believers" that think he will get their in 2026. Hopefully the Sabatier process gets thoroughly explained by them later and how much liquid methane fuel they can draw a day and not ends up like the tesla self driving cars.

Is NASA's manned mars 2033 with nuclear reactor/ MPD thrusters plan still in effect? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237827299_Use_of_High-Power_Brayton_Nuclear_Electric_Propulsion_NEP_for_a_2033_Mars_Round-Trip_Mission

[Robotbeat]

Just remember Space X has an amazing track record of projects they promised.

<youtube nonsense removed from original post>

The current perserverance rover is having problems collecting rocks yet I am expected to believe that Space X will do better in collecting and using Martian soil alot better than a company that has sent rovers there for years for fuel. I believe that Space X will eventually get to Mars but I am not one of "those believers" that think he will get their in 2026. Hopefully the Sabatier process gets thoroughly explained by them later and how much liquid methane fuel they can draw a day and not ends up like the tesla self driving cars.

Is NASA's manned mars 2033 with nuclear reactor/ MPD thrusters plan still in effect? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237827299_Use_of_High-Power_Brayton_Nuclear_Electric_Propulsion_NEP_for_a_2033_Mars_Round-Trip_Mission

That guy is a joke, not an authority, bro.

[spacenut]

First off, I have seen a self driving car on the Florida I-10.  So yeah, they are doing it in certain areas. 

We didn't see Red Dragon because NASA did not want landing legs coming through the heat shield.  Same with Dragon 2, that was because NASA didn't want it. 

We haven't seed a sub-scaled Raptor upper stage for Falcon Heavy because, as you can see in Boca Chica, it is all hands on deck to get Starship/Superheavy up and running. 

Also, they didn't try reusing the upper stage due to too much mass required to insulate it during re-entry as to reduce the payload too much for the size rocket of F9. 

SpaceX also tried 9m composite fuel tanks, and found them lacking.  More cost, lower melting point, would require more insulation when coming back through the atmosphere.  So, they went to Stainless Steel.

Again, if you will please follow the threads and the threads history, you will know why we are were we are now. 

Musk at least tries things, if they don't work or the cost is too high for the return, he abandons the idea. 

Musk haters are those who short stocked Tesla thinking it would fail, and probably people from companies he is in direct competition with.  He even in the Everyday Astronauts interview on You Tube said he makes mistakes, but he learns from them and moves on. 

In his interview he said his no. 1 goal is to get Starship orbital and be able to return and land back on earth and also retrieve the booster using the grid fins.  After that they will work on a hatch to launch satellites.  Then they will work on refueling in space.

He is super focused.  He gets things done, one at a time.  Mars is still probably 2024 synod when they are closest to earth to make a go at it. 

Orbital Starship and successful landing first.
Then cargo Starships to launch satellites, especially Starlinks. 
Then tanker Starships and refueling 
Then the lunar Starship or the Dear Moon Starship.
Then the Mars Starship and equipment for Sabatier processing of methane, lox, and water for future human landings. 

I wouldn't worry too much about Mars yet.  Musk has 42,000 more Starlink Satellites to launch probably 300-400 at at time instead of 60 with Falcon 9. 

This will get Starships/Superheavies bugs worked out perfecting landings and such, just like Falcon 9. 

I personally still think Hyperloop is a great idea, but Musk had to deal with city, state, and federal regulators as well as help with funding the infrastructure.  He obviously can't do it alone, he has to have permission to install anything cross country.  No one would give it to him.  So there you have that.

Starlink trials have already started in higher latitudes and is working fine.  It just needs more satellites.  His secret sauce of being about to get Starlink going when others have failed is Falcon 9's reusability and much lower in house costs.  Also Starship will be able to launch many more at an even lower cost than Falcon 9 due to being fully reusable.  Also, the military is interested in getting Starlink operational as anther leg of communication. 

He was made fun on developing F9, then F9 landings.  He crashed some but never gave up.  He even said there would be crashes of Starships and Superheavy boosters, but he will not give up until he gets the bugs out.