Author Topic: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?  (Read 26720 times)

Offline Soaring Habu

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Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« on: 11/09/2020 12:36 pm »
Unless I'm misinterpreting, NASA's overview of Orion:

https://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/orion/about/index.html

seems to indicate that Orion is intended for flights to Mars, or at least the vicinity of Mars, as well as to the Moon. I'm no expert on Mars missions, but from what I've read, a Mars mission would require a one-way journey of at least six to eight months, depending on the relative positions of the Earth and Mars at the time of launch.

Given Orion's Apollo-based design, I'm wondering how Orion will be able to carry sufficient oxygen, food, fuel etc. to support four (or even two) astronauts for such a period of time?
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Offline theprotobe

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #1 on: 11/09/2020 12:56 pm »
Unless I'm misinterpreting, NASA's overview of Orion:

https://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/orion/about/index.html

seems to indicate that Orion is intended for flights to Mars, or at least the vicinity of Mars, as well as to the Moon. I'm no expert on Mars missions, but from what I've read, a Mars mission would require a one-way journey of at least six to eight months, depending on the relative positions of the Earth and Mars at the time of launch.

Given Orion's Apollo-based design, I'm wondering how Orion will be able to carry sufficient oxygen, food, fuel etc. to support four (or even two) astronauts for such a period of time?
This isn't what they're going to do, AFAIK. NASA will most likely use a Mars Transit Vehicle (A mini space station). This would be assembled at Gateway with Orion, then it would set off for Mars.

Offline sdsds

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #2 on: 11/09/2020 01:10 pm »
Looking at the Mars Base Camp mission design, as just one example, might help clarify the role Orion is imagined to play. https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/eo/photo/webt/Mars-Base-Camp-2028.pdf

Note for example that for the return to Earth, the astronauts leaving the vicinity of Mars are put on a trajectory towards Earth that has them entering the atmosphere at 11.5 km/s. Orion would be taken along with the astronauts to Mars so they could use it to get safely home.

 
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Online daedalus1

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #3 on: 11/09/2020 01:18 pm »
Looking at the Mars Base Camp mission design, as just one example, might help clarify the role Orion is imagined to play. https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/eo/photo/webt/Mars-Base-Camp-2028.pdf

Note for example that for the return to Earth, the astronauts leaving the vicinity of Mars are put on a trajectory towards Earth that has them entering the atmosphere at 11.5 km/s. Orion would be taken along with the astronauts to Mars so they could use it to get safely home.

Which is best?
1 to take a heavy capsule to Mars and back or
2 to just take enough fuel to decelerate the living quarters into Earth orbit and be picked up by a commercial crew vehicle.

Offline sdsds

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #4 on: 11/09/2020 02:52 pm »
just take enough fuel to decelerate the living quarters into Earth orbit

How much do you figure that would be?
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #5 on: 11/09/2020 04:55 pm »
Yes, if they improve it a bit by qualifying it for longer duration and keep it attached to a much larger Mars Transfer Vehicle.

Gateway is a lot like a Mars Transfer Vehicle except with a bit too small of a propulsion element. Double or quadruple the PPE, add another module or two for more space and supplies, and you’ll have a complete Mars Transfer Vehicle. (Probably need a chemical kick stage module to speed TMI and maybe capture at a high Mars orbit.)
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #6 on: 11/09/2020 04:56 pm »
Actually, all that’s REALLY needed to make Gateway into a Mars Transfer Vehicle, beyond the extra modules already planned, is a beefy chemical transfer stage using some sort of low boil-off or storable chemical propulsion.
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Offline Hauerg

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #7 on: 11/09/2020 05:22 pm »
Looking at the Mars Base Camp mission design, as just one example, might help clarify the role Orion is imagined to play. https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/eo/photo/webt/Mars-Base-Camp-2028.pdf

Note for example that for the return to Earth, the astronauts leaving the vicinity of Mars are put on a trajectory towards Earth that has them entering the atmosphere at 11.5 km/s. Orion would be taken along with the astronauts to Mars so they could use it to get safely home.
Such a sad mission architecture.

Offline ncb1397

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #8 on: 11/09/2020 05:37 pm »
Actually, all that’s REALLY needed to make Gateway into a Mars Transfer Vehicle, beyond the extra modules already planned, is a beefy chemical transfer stage using some sort of low boil-off or storable chemical propulsion.

They already are planning a beefy chemical propulsion module with the HLS. If they are able to aggregate the listed gateway components (Orion, Dragon XL, iHAB, PPE, HLS, HALO, ESPRIT) like they currently plan to, they could probably mount a mars orbital mission with a smaller crew with minimal modifications to some of the components. I'm waiting on more data on each of the HLS providers and the down-select to confirm this. But gateway wouldn't be useable in lunar orbit for a few years and isn't the most efficient vehicle for the job.
« Last Edit: 11/09/2020 05:38 pm by ncb1397 »

Offline sdsds

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #9 on: 11/09/2020 05:40 pm »
Such a sad mission architecture.

I basically agree with this assessment. The architecture is built around a subservience to the rocket equation, and the notion that propulsion gets prohibitively expensive the "further out" you use it. (In this case the returning Orion is so "far" from its launch site that it has essentially zero propulsion budget remaining and relies on atmospheric braking to slow down.)

As many have opined, the solution to breaking the tyranny of the rocket equation is to produce propellant somewhere along the way. And the surface of Mars sure seems like a great place to do that!
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Offline freddo411

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #10 on: 11/09/2020 07:54 pm »
Unless I'm misinterpreting, NASA's overview of Orion:

https://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/orion/about/index.html

seems to indicate that Orion is intended for flights to Mars, or at least the vicinity of Mars, as well as to the Moon. I'm no expert on Mars missions, but from what I've read, a Mars mission would require a one-way journey of at least six to eight months, depending on the relative positions of the Earth and Mars at the time of launch.

Given Orion's Apollo-based design, I'm wondering how Orion will be able to carry sufficient oxygen, food, fuel etc. to support four (or even two) astronauts for such a period of time?


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Answer:   No

Exposition:
NASA maintains various, shall we say aspirational, Mars architecture designs that include Orion.    This is quite unwise.    The only thing that Orion can offer a Mars mission is a capsule for Earth reentry.   Absolutely everything else must be provided by other vehicles.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #11 on: 11/10/2020 04:44 am »
Actually, all that’s REALLY needed to make Gateway into a Mars Transfer Vehicle, beyond the extra modules already planned, is a beefy chemical transfer stage using some sort of low boil-off or storable chemical propulsion.

They already are planning a beefy chemical propulsion module with the HLS. If they are able to aggregate the listed gateway components (Orion, Dragon XL, iHAB, PPE, HLS, HALO, ESPRIT) like they currently plan to, they could probably mount a mars orbital mission with a smaller crew with minimal modifications to some of the components. I'm waiting on more data on each of the HLS providers and the down-select to confirm this. But gateway wouldn't be useable in lunar orbit for a few years and isn't the most efficient vehicle for the job.
Yup. True that a lunar lander also makes a really powerful chemical transfer stage.
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Offline John Santos

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #12 on: 11/10/2020 05:15 am »
The original intent of the Gateway was to be a prototype for a Mars transfer vehicle.  It would have propulsion, power (the PPE), communications, habitation space, supply storage, docking and EVA ports, Earth return and command and control.  The last 3 would be provided by Orion.  It would be assembled in Lunar orbit, would be useful for staging moon landings, could be used almost as is for the Asteroid Redirect mission, could be used for a Mars flight dress rehearsal, and, with more and/or bigger PPE modules and a lander, could be used as a crewed Mars ship.

Orion by itself was never intended for a Mars mission  (or, under Constellation, even for a Moon mission.)  It was always a component of a much larger program.  For a Moon mission, it suffices for people to live in for the 3 or 4 days each way to the Moon.  The crew would live in the Altair moon lander for the duration of their stay on the Moon, about 2 weeks.  For a Mars or asteroid mission, it has always been just a temporary habitation for launch and re-entry.  Since it was loaded with computers, inertial guidance, navigation, comms and smart control panels, it would also (I think) have been the primary control center.

(I think by the time anything like this comes to fruition, the astronauts will be using oversized iPads with WiFi or other wireless connectivity, and will do most of the system control and monitoring from wherever they happen to be.  In the first Star Trek movie, they seem to have invented the Kindle, but the writers didn't realize they could download ALL the engineering documents and designs and schematics into one device, so they had separate tablets for each document.  They would hand them off to each other when someone needed the docs for the life support systems or long range scanners.)

Offline Soaring Habu

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #13 on: 11/10/2020 08:53 am »
Thanks for the interesting info everyone's provided! I'd been thinking myself that a Mars Transit Vehicle of some kind is needed for Mars missions, not just Orion. I'd also been thinking of how ISS is far larger than Orion, supports crews of up to six or seven people (I think that's the current crew size, but I could be wrong) for many months, but requires regular resupply from Earth. Obviously, a Mars Transfer Vehicle won't be able to be resupplied during its mission, so it would have to have a lot of space for consumables. I wouldn't be surprised if the astronauts would also have means of growing food and possibly producing oxygen and fuel on board.
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Offline Proponent

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #14 on: 11/10/2020 11:34 am »
Yes, if they improve it a bit by qualifying it for longer duration and keep it attached to a much larger Mars Transfer Vehicle.

Gateway is a lot like a Mars Transfer Vehicle except with a bit too small of a propulsion element. Double or quadruple the PPE, add another module or two for more space and supplies, and you’ll have a complete Mars Transfer Vehicle. (Probably need a chemical kick stage module to speed TMI and maybe capture at a high Mars orbit.)

And for a test flight before tackling a Mars mission, you could go to a near-Earth asteroid.  Didn't we hear that idea once before somewhere? :)

Offline brickmack

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #15 on: 11/10/2020 02:13 pm »
Such a sad mission architecture.

I basically agree with this assessment. The architecture is built around a subservience to the rocket equation, and the notion that propulsion gets prohibitively expensive the "further out" you use it. (In this case the returning Orion is so "far" from its launch site that it has essentially zero propulsion budget remaining and relies on atmospheric braking to slow down.)

As many have opined, the solution to breaking the tyranny of the rocket equation is to produce propellant somewhere along the way. And the surface of Mars sure seems like a great place to do that!

You misunderstand the MBC architecture in several ways.

1. Water delivery is intended only for the first few years, and is actually one of the key distinctions it offers over other architectures. Coupled with a reusable single-stage lander, this allows a single expedition to visit multiple points on the surface over the span of a few months, not being tied to a single base. ISRU can come later (and is inherently compatible with a hydrolox lander and transfer vehicle), but would force each landing site to be semi-permanent, with a large industrial setup and months stay time at minimum. MBC allows that to be deferred until an ideal permanent site can be selected, and once this transition is made, nothing changes for the existing reusable hardware other than adding the ISRU plant. Even the Water Delivery Vehicles are meant to be repurposed as permanent depot modules once ISRU is established

2. No, the returning Orion doesn't do a direct entry from a Mars-Earth interplanetary trajectory. The whole stack enters lunar orbit at the end of the mission, then Orion returns as normal. This allows most of the mission hardware to be reused. Carrying Orion along at all is... questionable, given you could just as well have Orion stay in lunar orbit to drop off and pick up the crew, but the idea is that it allows for more abort options (both on departure and return), and also allows Orion to be dual-use for visiting Phobos/Deimos

Offline Soaring Habu

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #16 on: 11/11/2020 08:47 am »
Such a sad mission architecture.

I basically agree with this assessment. The architecture is built around a subservience to the rocket equation, and the notion that propulsion gets prohibitively expensive the "further out" you use it. (In this case the returning Orion is so "far" from its launch site that it has essentially zero propulsion budget remaining and relies on atmospheric braking to slow down.)

As many have opined, the solution to breaking the tyranny of the rocket equation is to produce propellant somewhere along the way. And the surface of Mars sure seems like a great place to do that!

You misunderstand the MBC architecture in several ways.

1. Water delivery is intended only for the first few years, and is actually one of the key distinctions it offers over other architectures. Coupled with a reusable single-stage lander, this allows a single expedition to visit multiple points on the surface over the span of a few months, not being tied to a single base. ISRU can come later (and is inherently compatible with a hydrolox lander and transfer vehicle), but would force each landing site to be semi-permanent, with a large industrial setup and months stay time at minimum. MBC allows that to be deferred until an ideal permanent site can be selected, and once this transition is made, nothing changes for the existing reusable hardware other than adding the ISRU plant. Even the Water Delivery Vehicles are meant to be repurposed as permanent depot modules once ISRU is established

2. No, the returning Orion doesn't do a direct entry from a Mars-Earth interplanetary trajectory. The whole stack enters lunar orbit at the end of the mission, then Orion returns as normal. This allows most of the mission hardware to be reused. Carrying Orion along at all is... questionable, given you could just as well have Orion stay in lunar orbit to drop off and pick up the crew, but the idea is that it allows for more abort options (both on departure and return), and also allows Orion to be dual-use for visiting Phobos/Deimos
Bringing the Mars Transit Vehicle back to Earth orbit and parking it in Earth orbit between missions would also allow the hardware to be reused, and would allow easier access to the vehicle to carry out maintenance etc. between missions. Parking it in lunar orbit would avoid the need to escape from Earth's strong gravity though, and astronauts aboard the Lunar Gateway could do maintenance on the Mars Transit Vehicle (how long would crews spend aboard the Lunar Gateway?).
« Last Edit: 11/11/2020 08:48 am by Disco747 »
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #17 on: 12/01/2020 08:48 am »
I imagine that the best 'parking spot' for the MTV would be one of the EML halo orbits. Hence Gateway - I think that NASA's forward planning for Mars is already assuming that they won't take an Orion all the way to Mars and back.
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Offline jadebenn

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #18 on: 12/01/2020 10:28 am »
I imagine that the best 'parking spot' for the MTV would be one of the EML halo orbits. Hence Gateway - I think that NASA's forward planning for Mars is already assuming that they won't take an Orion all the way to Mars and back.
Yes, most of the architectures I've seen lately use NRHO (that's because SLS can't really do payload to LEO and NASA assumes SLS - let's not rehash this argument please) and have Orion serve pretty much solely as a crew transfer vehicle.

Offline Soaring Habu

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Re: Is Orion really capable of reaching Mars?
« Reply #19 on: 12/04/2020 09:45 am »
I imagine that the best 'parking spot' for the MTV would be one of the EML halo orbits. Hence Gateway - I think that NASA's forward planning for Mars is already assuming that they won't take an Orion all the way to Mars and back.
Yes, most of the architectures I've seen lately use NRHO (that's because SLS can't really do payload to LEO and NASA assumes SLS - let's not rehash this argument please) and have Orion serve pretty much solely as a crew transfer vehicle.

I've always thought of Orion as being a crew transfer vehicle only myself, and I don't recall ever reading or hearing anything about SLS being used to launch anything other than Orion. I certainly don't want to rehash any arguments on the matter, either.  :)
« Last Edit: 12/04/2020 09:46 am by Disco747 »
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