Author Topic: Rotating Stations for Tourism  (Read 18211 times)

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #20 on: 12/19/2022 11:18 am »
A chamber where you are surrounded on all sides by transparent walls, so you can really see space.

We're gonna hafta wait for Scotty to develop transparent aluminum...



I've already stolen the idea of EVA's.  Just so ya know.
« Last Edit: 12/19/2022 11:22 am by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #21 on: 04/04/2023 06:03 pm »
Thier station should be located at EML-1 in a Sun Synchronous Precessional Orbit.  [SSPO]

But Why.gif title=But Why.gif



...just because you fancy the idea?  ???

Why not? Glad you asked!  :)

[a bunch of reasons]


The reason for an EML-1 location has been discussed elsewhere.

Since it seems this was never seriously followed up on...

1. Can anyone link to this mythical "elsewhere?"

2. Does it address all of the points I raised?
« Last Edit: 04/04/2023 06:10 pm by Twark_Main »
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #22 on: 04/18/2023 01:56 am »
With no response in ~2 weeks, it seems clear John is not going to offer any support for his EML-1 preference.

The last time this came up he defended its merits by saying it's "[not] paltry" (whatever that means), that it can use lunar material (which has never been shown to be economical), and that it maximizes the degree of "off-world economy"-ness.  In other words, he likes EML-1 because—unlike LEO—it's not "too close to Earth."

O'Neil complained about "planetary chauvinism." This is simply anti-proximity chauvinism. Not better!

At long last, we can safely dismiss the notion that EML-1 is better/faster/cheaper. In reality it's the opposite of all those. This "argument" for EML-1 is nothing but zealotry masquerading as engineering.
« Last Edit: 04/18/2023 02:12 am by Twark_Main »
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #23 on: 04/18/2023 02:41 am »
A chamber where you are surrounded on all sides by transparent walls, so you can really see space.

We're gonna hafta wait for Scotty to develop transparent aluminum...



I've already stolen the idea of EVA's.  Just so ya know.
Transparent aluminum has existed for a long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride

It is called Aluminum oxynitride.

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #24 on: 04/19/2023 06:24 am »
Do we have any reason to believe that transparent aluminum is superior to polycarbonate and/or fused silica, which are the standard material for space windows?
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Offline Paul451

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #25 on: 04/19/2023 08:02 am »
Do we have any reason to believe that transparent aluminum is superior to polycarbonate and/or fused silica, which are the standard material for space windows?

Supposed greater impact resistance than silica, both in weight-for-weight and thickness-for-thickness, while retaining silica-like resistance to degradation over time than polycarb.

(IR transparency is greater than silica... if that's somehow useful to you.)

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #26 on: 04/20/2023 02:35 am »
Thanks. IR transparency would be good for solar heating, but if desired you could easily block it out with a thin-film reflective layer. This lets you tailor the thermal properties of each window to be ideal for the station design.
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #27 on: 05/11/2023 06:41 pm »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #28 on: 01/29/2024 06:46 am »
I love the VAST spinning stick concept. But in a recent discussion on reddit someone claimed, the spinning stick is not stable. It would begin spinning along the long axis too and become instable, so is not feasible.

I can't see how this would come about but these things are often counterintuitive. Can somebody knowledgeable shed some light on it?

I imagined the spinning stick as a gravity lab that can perform experiments in any of a range of gravitiy values. But I can imagine this would be interesting for tourists too.
« Last Edit: 01/29/2024 06:46 am by guckyfan »

Offline Paul451

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #29 on: 01/29/2024 07:37 am »
I love the VAST spinning stick concept. But in a recent discussion on reddit someone claimed, the spinning stick is not stable. It would begin spinning along the long axis too and become instable, so is not feasible.

They're right, but wrong.

They're talking about "intermediate axis instability" (aka the tennis racket effect, aka the Dzhanibekov Effect.)

Grab a book that isn't too heavy that you don't might dropping and bending the covers (basic paperback novel is ideal). Throw it up in the air (to yourself) like a Frisbee. That's rotation around the minor axis, it's stable. Hold it in two hands so the spine is facing upwards, then throw/flick it up so it spins around its long axis. Ie, the major axis. That's also stable (although it's more complicated in larger systems). Now hold it in two hands so the cover is normally upright and readable, and throw/flick it as carefully as possible in the air around the middle (ie, intermediate) axis. It will spin left/right for every up/down spin. Try again. Repeat, while also switching back to the others occasionally to remind yourself how stable those are again, until you convince yourself that it's impossible to spin it on the intermediate axis without the unwanted side-to-side rotation. It's not you, it's physics.

So the problem with a stick station (aka a baton) rotating end-over-end is that the minor axis and the intermediate axis are very close to being the same. That means it's very easy for (stable) minor axis rotation to become (unstable) intermediate axis rotation. Worse, if you have a ship docked at the axis (as they plan), then that axis almost certainly becomes the intermediate axis.

The solution is to ensure you have plenty of extra mass in the rotational plane, but away from the major axis, making the intermediate axis beefier, making the minor axis definitely and reliably the minor axis. Essential, you want to turn the stick into a flat plate or Frisbee.

One way to do that is to hang a great slab of solar panels out there in the plane of rotation.

And, oh look, that's exactly what Vast have done with their design.

They're not stupid, they know this stuff, it'll be fine.
« Last Edit: 01/29/2024 11:32 pm by Paul451 »

Offline guckyfan

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #30 on: 01/29/2024 08:29 am »
Thanks!

Your example with the book and mentioning the intermediate axis helped me to understand. Also how the solar panels stabilize the system.

Offline JVanste

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #31 on: 02/16/2024 03:03 pm »
Good morning. Is the Voyager Station space hotel going to have a floating area where people can just float around? I'm wheelchair bound due to my Quadriplegic Cerebral Palsy and my dream is to go up into outer space because I truly believe that I will have more freedom of movement up there.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #32 on: 02/16/2024 03:44 pm »
Good morning. Is the Voyager Station space hotel going to have a floating area where people can just float around? I'm wheelchair bound due to my Quadriplegic Cerebral Palsy and my dream is to go up into outer space because I truly believe that I will have more freedom of movement up there.

Everything is just a concept today, until it is built. However almost all rotating space station designs assume that visiting vehicles will dock at the center of rotation, which would have the least amount of artificial gravity effects. And some designs assume a rather large central docking area, meaning that there could be a substantial amount of very low gravity area to roam around in.

A zero gravity station, like the International Space Station, provides the most amount of freedom, though negative side effect accumulate the longer you are in zero gravity, but for short stays most people should be fine.

I think the biggest challenge for people that don't have the physique (or youth) of the current generation of astronauts, will be in getting to space - rocket launches can be very challenging, but the SpaceX Starship might be able to provide an experience that is more accommodating.

You are in good company with your desire to make it to space, and identifying what kind of experience you'd want to have is important information for those that are attempting to build the 1st generation of rotating space stations.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline JVanste

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #33 on: 02/16/2024 06:43 pm »
I plan to be in zero-gravity for a couple of hours each day when I'm at the Voyager Station space hotel. I plan to live up there for 6 months each year

Offline floss

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #34 on: 02/24/2024 11:22 pm »
The full ring is too big an costly what is needed is an initial station that provides safe living conditions and an income you can spend a century or two building extensions as population grows .

Offline Paul451

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #35 on: 02/25/2024 08:56 am »
I think the biggest challenge for people that don't have the physique (or youth) of the current generation of astronauts, will be in getting to space - rocket launches can be very challenging, but the SpaceX Starship might be able to provide an experience that is more accommodating.

A bigger problem for people with mobility issues (even if they can tolerate launch g-loads), is that safety requirements presumably mean a minimum ability to self-evacuate from the capsule/vehicle if it emergency lands/splashes-down. Especially splashdown. If you can't unfasten your seat harness and get through the side hatch and into a lifeboat within a reasonable amount of time, you won't be allowed to launch at all. I might be misremembering, but I think they even do helicopter water inversion escape training (presumably if the capsule rolls upside-down after splashdown.)

Eventually, standards will reduce as vehicle safety increases (just as people with mobility issues are allowed to fly, even though they might not be able to self-evacuate in a crash landing). But for a long time, this will be an iron rule.

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #36 on: 02/26/2024 10:29 am »
I think the biggest challenge for people that don't have the physique (or youth) of the current generation of astronauts, will be in getting to space - rocket launches can be very challenging, but the SpaceX Starship might be able to provide an experience that is more accommodating.

A bigger problem for people with mobility issues (even if they can tolerate launch g-loads), is that safety requirements presumably mean a minimum ability to self-evacuate from the capsule/vehicle if it emergency lands/splashes-down. Especially splashdown. If you can't unfasten your seat harness and get through the side hatch and into a lifeboat within a reasonable amount of time, you won't be allowed to launch at all. I might be misremembering, but I think they even do helicopter water inversion escape training (presumably if the capsule rolls upside-down after splashdown.)

Eventually, standards will reduce as vehicle safety increases (just as people with mobility issues are allowed to fly, even though they might not be able to self-evacuate in a crash landing). But for a long time, this will be an iron rule.

Currently the only disabled astronaut so far is John McFall, and even then the guy is a veteran and paralympian and could probably beat any number of space billionaires into a dinghy. There's a lot that needs to be done before he even launches, things like how can get around in space with his prosthesis, does it need to be redesigned, is he better off with a simpler one or just without it completely. Then there's things that we can only learn with an actual disabled person in space... how does swelling work, how does his body respond to the volume shifts, how well can he use the exercise equipment to stave off muscle and bone loss. Et cetera. I'm sure that we will gain a lot of useful medical knowledge when he flies.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-65380263

Offline Paul451

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #37 on: 02/27/2024 02:08 am »
Currently the only disabled astronaut so far is John McFall,

Hayley Arceneaux is also an amputee. (AIUI, she flew with her prosthetic.) (Also, pedantically, McFall is an astronaut-candidate, he hadn't flown.)

But this is what I meant, both she and McFall are fully mobile and able to self-evacuate. I suspect that will be a hard-limit on people with disabilities travelling in space. People with mobility issues will not be allowed to launch for a long time. Hopefully things improve more rapidly in the next 50 years than they have in the last 50 years, and we'll see a more airliner-like development, but for now... no.

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #38 on: 02/28/2024 06:40 am »
Currently the only disabled astronaut so far is John McFall,

Hayley Arceneaux is also an amputee. (AIUI, she flew with her prosthetic.) (Also, pedantically, McFall is an astronaut-candidate, he hadn't flown.)

But this is what I meant, both she and McFall are fully mobile and able to self-evacuate. I suspect that will be a hard-limit on people with disabilities travelling in space. People with mobility issues will not be allowed to launch for a long time. Hopefully things improve more rapidly in the next 50 years than they have in the last 50 years, and we'll see a more airliner-like development, but for now... no.

Hayley Arceneaux has a titanium rod inside her left thigh as well as a knee prosthetic as a result of bone cancer. At the time, it was a new design that could be remotely adjusted as she grew. She was the first person to fly in space with a prosthetic. But her limb was not amputated. Your point stands, I am just replying out of pedantry.

https://www.stjude.org/inspire/series/st-jude-cancer-survivor-hayley-arceneaux-hope-inspiration4-worlds-first-all-civilian-space-flight.html

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Rotating Stations for Tourism
« Reply #39 on: 03/11/2024 10:08 pm »
I think the biggest challenge for people that don't have the physique (or youth) of the current generation of astronauts, will be in getting to space - rocket launches can be very challenging, but the SpaceX Starship might be able to provide an experience that is more accommodating.

A bigger problem for people with mobility issues (even if they can tolerate launch g-loads), is that safety requirements presumably mean a minimum ability to self-evacuate from the capsule/vehicle if it emergency lands/splashes-down. Especially splashdown. If you can't unfasten your seat harness and get through the side hatch and into a lifeboat within a reasonable amount of time, you won't be allowed to launch at all. I might be misremembering, but I think they even do helicopter water inversion escape training (presumably if the capsule rolls upside-down after splashdown.)

Eventually, standards will reduce as vehicle safety increases (just as people with mobility issues are allowed to fly, even though they might not be able to self-evacuate in a crash landing). But for a long time, this will be an iron rule.

In case you've never seen or heard of this type of training before, it's...  pretty intense.

"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

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