Author Topic: The Buran Thread  (Read 637818 times)

Offline hanschristian

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #700 on: 12/16/2008 11:50 am »

by 1976 NASA knew Skylab was coming down earlier.

I recall they want to accelerate STS because of this... am I right?
The Sky is NOT the Limit...

Offline William Barton

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #701 on: 12/16/2008 12:45 pm »
With Miles O'Brien and his whole tech. staff now eliminated from CNN, I wonder how long before that network runs with this nonsense story?

Or to paraphrase, how many of these crappy stories can we expect to see in the future?... ???

Maybe we may see a spaceflight tabloid... A very scary thought... :(


A spaceflight tabloid would at least mean there was some public interest...

Offline comethunter

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #702 on: 12/16/2008 02:37 pm »
Have I missed something along the way?  As a space video junkie recording television coverage dating back to 1982, I don't recall ever seeing the complete launch of Buran; only a short clip at tower.  You would think it would have been released after all these years (i.e. failed N1).  Again, have I missed something?

Offline ugordan

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #703 on: 12/16/2008 02:40 pm »
If you've seen the launch pad video then you've seen what kind of meteorological conditions were present during launch. The vehicle disappeared into the cloud deck seconds after liftoff.

Offline buran.fr

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #704 on: 12/16/2008 02:52 pm »
Have I missed something along the way?  As a space video junkie recording television coverage dating back to 1982, I don't recall ever seeing the complete launch of Buran; only a short clip at tower.  You would think it would have been released after all these years (i.e. failed N1).  Again, have I missed something?

Here is the videos of the Buran's launch. But quick it disappears in the clouds.
« Last Edit: 12/16/2008 08:58 pm by buran.fr »

Offline comethunter

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #705 on: 12/16/2008 09:50 pm »
Thanks for the info.  It's been a while since ive seen the video. The short video makes sense now with the cloud deck.  I'm sure its probably been mentioned somewhere in this long thread, but what was the rationale to launch a new vehicle at night into a cloud deck?  What about high altitude imagery?

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #706 on: 12/17/2008 02:36 am »

by 1976 NASA knew Skylab was coming down earlier.

I recall they want to accelerate STS because of this... am I right?

They did want to accelerate the STS production, but ran into too many
snags that kept pushing Columbia's maiden launch further. 
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #707 on: 12/17/2008 03:35 am »
Thanks for the info.  It's been a while since ive seen the video. The short video makes sense now with the cloud deck.  I'm sure its probably been mentioned somewhere in this long thread, but what was the rationale to launch a new vehicle at night into a cloud deck?  What about high altitude imagery?

Wasn't funding drying up rather quickly? They probably wanted to launch at least once before the program was canned - hoping that a success would extend the program. (not that it ended up making much of a difference)

Just my speculation, of course.

Plus the Russians have always been used to launching at pretty severe weather conditions. (compared to STS)

Offline buran.fr

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #708 on: 12/17/2008 07:10 am »
Thanks for the info.  It's been a while since ive seen the video. The short video makes sense now with the cloud deck.  I'm sure its probably been mentioned somewhere in this long thread, but what was the rationale to launch a new vehicle at night into a cloud deck?  What about high altitude imagery?

As Lars_J said the weathers conditions are rude in Baikonur, the russian have the habit to launch in very bad weather conditions. Moreover it was just a low cloud layer, no dangerous winds or hail.
It wasn't really at night it was 8AM at Baikonur (6AM at Moscow).
There was a Mig above the clouds that shoot a movie when Energia-Buran passed through until it reached orbit. But the imagery quality is low because it was taken by a normal movie camera by the co-pilot.

Offline hanschristian

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #709 on: 12/17/2008 09:50 am »

A spaceflight tabloid would at least mean there was some public interest...

but that may spark an interest of the negative kind...

like these possible headlines...

SPACE TOILET BROKEN, ISS CREW IN BIG TROUBLE
SHUTTLE WINDSHIELD HIT, CREW AT RISK...
$100k TOOLBAG LOST IN SPACE, SPACEWALK IN JEOPARDY
FOAM CAME LOOSE AFTER LAUNCH, SHUTTLE IN DANGER

not helpful... >:(
« Last Edit: 12/17/2008 09:56 am by hanschristian »
The Sky is NOT the Limit...

Offline hanschristian

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #710 on: 12/17/2008 09:54 am »

They did want to accelerate the STS production, but ran into too many
snags that kept pushing Columbia's maiden launch further. 

I see... :)
The Sky is NOT the Limit...

Offline comethunter

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #711 on: 12/17/2008 10:53 am »
All due respect, and I mean that, please explain the rationale...you are going to launch a test vehicle (Buran), not to mention first launch.  Constraints to launch...uh, lets see...no one on board, no where to go, nothing to deploy...its a test flight (cloud deck, dark, no upper imagery).  I still need some rationale on this.  Not trying to get political here.  Give the weather a couple of days if needed.  Launch to the east in the early morning sun...engineers will watch their rewards or, better than seeing nothing.  Not to mention, Soyuz rotation flights are launched when...

Offline ugordan

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #712 on: 12/17/2008 10:59 am »
Why? Watch what? How many sunny days per year are there at Baikonur? It's not like they have long range tracking cameras like the Cape does, anyway. Engineers don't need visuals on their vehicle, they're too busy looking at the telemetry. Visuals are only a bonus for outsiders.

Offline KEdward5

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #713 on: 12/17/2008 01:02 pm »
Thanks for the info.  It's been a while since ive seen the video. The short video makes sense now with the cloud deck.  I'm sure its probably been mentioned somewhere in this long thread, but what was the rationale to launch a new vehicle at night into a cloud deck?  What about high altitude imagery?

There's four Burna videos on L2, all about two hours long each, coverted from video tape and in Russian. One of them is specific to the launch, mission and landing. Includes video from a Soviet fighter during first stage.

Offline comethunter

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #714 on: 12/17/2008 01:06 pm »
IFR and VFR.  Use all tools available to fly the mission and continue its meaning.

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #715 on: 12/17/2008 01:16 pm »
That reminds me, we still need to create the trailer for the L2 videos of Buran. Will be a "promotion" but also a free video for all (like the re-entry videos), so everyone wins. Several gigabyte of video, so it'll take a while to create a promo video, but we'll arrange that over Christmas.
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Offline DMeader

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #716 on: 12/17/2008 03:09 pm »
Engineers don't need visuals on their vehicle, they're too busy looking at the telemetry. Visuals are only a bonus for outsiders.

Like the photos in the Rogers Commission report showing the puffs of smoke and later the plume of flame coming from the breached field joint on the SRB? Those were of no value and were only a "bonus for outsiders"? Why were cameras placed inside propellant tanks of some of the early vehicles to watch how the contents behaved during flight? Why are there cameras on the Shuttle watching the vehicle during ascent and inside the umbilical well to photograph the ET after separation? The engineers surely don't need any of this, they just watch their telemetry.  Sheesh. Sorry for OT.

Offline ugordan

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #717 on: 12/17/2008 03:27 pm »
Engineers don't need visuals on their vehicle, they're too busy looking at the telemetry. Visuals are only a bonus for outsiders.

Like the photos in the Rogers Commission report showing the puffs of smoke and later the plume of flame coming from the breached field joint on the SRB? Those were of no value and were only a "bonus for outsiders"? Why were cameras placed inside propellant tanks of some of the early vehicles to watch how the contents behaved during flight? Why are there cameras on the Shuttle watching the vehicle during ascent and inside the umbilical well to photograph the ET after separation? The engineers surely don't need any of this, they just watch their telemetry.  Sheesh. Sorry for OT.

Fine, if you wanna play it this way. Why do they need thousands of cameras watching shuttle ascent and taking images of the ET? Because the Shuttle system was poorly designed (and this is in full advantage of 20/20 hindsight) in that the Orbiter could potentially suffer catastrophic damage from its own launch system. At the same time, the launcher itself can work perfectly fine. Which *other* launch vehicle requires such close scrutiny during launch?

You will note there are many engineering cameras mounted at the pad and even on the vehicle if necessary for various vehicles. I'm not arguing about those as the cloud cover is irrelevant to them. I don't see how that has anything to do with usefulness of long range tracking the vehicle through much of ascent. They are a bonus, and should be a bonus, not a requirement. Shuttle has been known to launch into low clouds as well, so what's the point in necessitating clear skies for a launch. The russians obviously didn't think it was necessary with Buran.

If I was not clear about visuals above, it was the original poster's comment about launching into a cloudy sky. And yes, engineers evaluate footage after the launch and are most likely occupied looking at the consoles during the actual launch.
« Last Edit: 12/17/2008 03:32 pm by ugordan »

Offline DMeader

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #718 on: 12/17/2008 03:35 pm »
Which *other* launch vehicle requires such close scrutiny during launch?

All.

That's all I'll say, and no, I will not take part in the  "Buran Vs. Shuttle" screed (and if not that, Russian operations philosophy VS American operations philosophy) you seem to want to get going.
« Last Edit: 12/17/2008 04:28 pm by DMeader »

Offline ugordan

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Re: The Buran Thread
« Reply #719 on: 12/17/2008 03:40 pm »
I'm not getting anything going.

If all launch vehicles *required* such close scrutiny, none would ever launch into an overcast sky. Or launch during nigthttime, alternatively. Apollo 12 would never have launched during a heavy downpour and consequently would not be struck by lightning if tracker footage was deemed *that* important.

EDIT: You seem real eager to degrade my points to a russian-vs-american thing and frankly I don't see where you're coming from. Maybe you're projecting your own ideas, but I'd appreciate if you don't put words into my mouth. I said in an above post that even shuttle launched in "unfavorable" tracking conditions, look at STS-123 for the latest example.

Maybe instead of accusing me of that you'd be willing to expand on why exactly trackers are a requirement for all vehicle launches?
« Last Edit: 12/18/2008 09:28 am by ugordan »

 

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