Author Topic: Apollo minus the Fire  (Read 37510 times)

Offline GirlygirlShuttlefan

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #40 on: 02/18/2006 12:59 am »
Who was the astronaut that missed out on the Apollo 13 mission and ended up being a hero by finding a way to get them back with the lack of power via the mock up on Earth? He was the one that slept in and took his phone off the hook because he was so down about it.

Offline Tony T. Harris

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #41 on: 02/18/2006 01:03 am »
Quote
GirlygirlShuttlefan - 17/2/2006  7:59 PM

Who was the astronaut that missed out on the Apollo 13 mission and ended up being a hero by finding a way to get them back with the lack of power via the mock up on Earth? He was the one that slept in and took his phone off the hook because he was so down about it.

Ken Mattingly. And that was made up by Hollywood for the film. He was not sulking at home with the phone off the hook. Apollo 13 the film was very sweethearted up.
Former Saturn V propulsion systems lead engineer.

Offline Shuttle Man

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #42 on: 02/18/2006 01:04 am »
Quote
GirlygirlShuttlefan - 17/2/2006  7:59 PM

Who was the astronaut that missed out on the Apollo 13 mission and ended up being a hero by finding a way to get them back with the lack of power via the mock up on Earth? He was the one that slept in and took his phone off the hook because he was so down about it.

That was Ken Mattingly, but he was NOT as they portrayed him. He was pulled from the mission with just two days notice, but he was still an utter pro. A great man.
Ex-Apollo, waiting for NASA to finish what we started.

Offline GirlygirlShuttlefan

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #43 on: 02/18/2006 01:10 am »
And that's my answer from two Apollo guys in the same of one minute!  :o  How cool is that. Thanks.

Offline carmelo

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #44 on: 02/18/2006 01:12 am »
And about Eliott See?

Offline dvandorn

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #45 on: 02/18/2006 01:27 am »
Elliott See was considered by some of his peers as one of the weaker pilots in the second group -- or in the entire astronaut corps, for that matter.  Someone (I think it may have been Deke) described him as a hesitant pilot, "little-old-ladyish" was the term I recall.  And the pilot error that took See's life (as well as Bassett's) was ultimately defined as waiting too long to abort a landing in poor visibility -- in other words, hesitancy.

See was originally assigned as backup PLT for Gemini V, with Neil Armstrong as his CDR.  When it came time to name the Gemini VIII crew, though, Deke replaced See with Dave Scott.  His reasoning was that Gemini VIII featured a very strenuous EVA, and Deke felt that See wasn't in as good a physical condition as many of the other astronauts.  He seriously felt that See wasn't in good enough shape to perform a strenuous EVA.  So, See was given his own command, Gemini IX, with Charlie Bassett on hand to perform the EVA tasks.  But, even with this seemingly good explanation for the crew switch, Deke seems to have had doubts about See's overall abilities, especially his piloting abilities.  (For example, while he said he had a very definite set of Apollo seats in mind for Charlie Bassett, See would likely have been a crewmember on one of the early Apollo flights and then, like Cunningham and Eisele, probably not have been considered for later flights.)

In retrospect, Slayton wondered whether he perhaps ought to have simply pulled See from the rotation entirely.  He speaks in his biography of perhaps letting his liking of See get in the way of his professional judgment.  He wanted Elliott to get a flight, and so put him in a position where his less-than-stellar piloting skills could get him into trouble.  And Deke felt somewhat responsible for that.

-Doug
-Doug

"The problem isn't that there are too many fools, the problem is that lightning isn't aimed right."  -Mark Twain

Offline Ben E

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #46 on: 02/18/2006 01:40 am »
Doug,

Even if See was one of the weaker pilots in Group 2, why was he ever given the CDR slot on Gemini 9? Less than half of that group flew their first missions as CDR - McDivitt, Borman and Armstrong - so surely if See was a weak pilot, he'd have been given a PLT seat and then quietly eased aside and out of the astronaut corps. In view of the earlier comments on this thread about astronauts whom Slayton felt were 'CDR material', but didn't get commands - Young, Lovell, White - I cannot understand why Slayton would have given one to the decidedly-average See.

Further, I forget the name of the book, but it may have been Slayton and Shepard's MOONSHOT, in which the early crew selections (before Slayton became head of flight operations) were decided in favour of each of the armed forces. Hence Shepard (Navy), Grissom (Air Force) and Glenn (Marines) were the first three to go up. Other than that, I would guess that a non-Slayton Astronaut Office management would have HAD to run some kind of prime/backup/support crew rotation system to keep up morale.

One wonders if they'd have still stuck with Armstrong (or perhaps even See) as the first man on the Moon, due to their civilian status.

Offline rsp1202

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #47 on: 02/18/2006 02:06 pm »
So for pure piloting skills, with engineering smarts, etc., thrown in, we're talking who as top dogs?

The Original 7:
Shepard
Schirra
Slayton

The New 9:
Conrad
Stafford
McDivitt
Borman
Young
Armstrong (?)

The Next 19:
?

Online Chris Bergin

RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #48 on: 02/18/2006 05:29 pm »
Quote
Tony T. Harris - 18/2/2006  2:03 AM



Ken Mattingly. And that was made up by Hollywood for the film. He was not sulking at home with the phone off the hook. Apollo 13 the film was very sweethearted up.

I didn't know that. I'd of thought Mattingly would have complained about that?
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Offline dvandorn

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #49 on: 02/19/2006 05:05 pm »
Ben, as near as I can tell, that same question you posed in re See was something Deke also asked himself.  But Deke wanted See to get his Gemini flight, and so he overlooked some basic factors that he thought later he shouldn't have overlooked.  (This is with all due respect to See and his family -- and recall that Slayton really soft-pedaled his views on See in his biography, so we ought not denigrate him here.  He must have had some basic competence, or he never would have made it through the selection process.  All we have to go on are the hints Slayton gave in his book, and I've drawn about as much out of that as you can, I think.)

I really think that the most outrageous treatment an astronaut ever received was what happened to Gordo Cooper.  I grant you, Gordo rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, with what was called a really obnoxious strap-it-on-and-go attitude; he didn't want to spend his time and energy on extensive preparations, he just wanted to cluimb in the cockpit and take off.  But even so, after putting in very strong performances in both MA-9 and GT-V, Slayton began to insist that he could no longer "sell" Cooper as a prime crewmember to his bosses.  So Cooper ended up with only two further crew assignments -- backup CDR of one of the late Gemini flights (a position that would never rotate up to a prime crew, since there weren't enough remaining Gemini flights for that to happen), and backup CDR for Apollo 10.  He was indeed offered the backup CDR job on what was then Apollo 13, when Shepard took over as the prime CDR of that crew, but was told he probably wouldn't be allowed to rotate to the prime CDR of Apollo 16, so he told Slayton and Shepard to shove it.

If Cooper had put in poor performances on either of his flights, I could see it -- but he put in outstanding performances, especially on MA-9.

Just goes to show you that competence and piloting ability weren't the only standards by which Slayton and company judged people for crew assignments.

-Doug
-Doug

"The problem isn't that there are too many fools, the problem is that lightning isn't aimed right."  -Mark Twain

Offline Ad Astra

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #50 on: 02/19/2006 08:13 pm »
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dvandorn - 19/2/2006  12:05 PM
 He was indeed offered the backup CDR job on what was then Apollo 13, when Shepard took over as the prime CDR of that crew, but was told he probably wouldn't be allowed to rotate to the prime CDR of Apollo 16, so he told Slayton and Shepard to shove it.

-Doug

Fascinating information. Thanks for sharing.

Offline Ben E

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #51 on: 02/20/2006 12:23 pm »
Thanks, Doug.

I'm also aware that Donn Eisele and Walt Cunningham from Apollo 7 had shadows cast over their careers after Wally Schirra's outburst during their mission, but that Cunningham was told that if he kept his nose clean he could find redemption. I think both Cunningham and Schweickart also did a lot of work towards Skylab, but never flew it. Why?

What was Slayton's attitude to these three men, both before and after their Apollo flights? Was it solely on the basis of their performance in their missions that prevented them from flying again or, in Eisele's case, perhaps his divorce?

Offline carmelo

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #52 on: 02/20/2006 01:49 pm »
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Ben E - 20/2/2006  7:23 AM

Thanks, Doug.

 I think both Cunningham and Schweickart also did a lot of work towards Skylab, but never flew it. Why?

 
Yes,why? for  Schweickart Space sickness" are not a excuse. Rusty  was backcrew CDR of SK-2,so he was fully qualified to fly.

Offline Ben E

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #53 on: 02/20/2006 03:30 pm »
Without questioning the competence of the Skylab-4 crew, it seems unusual that three rookies should fly when, in my mind, Cunningham or Schweickart were far more qualified candidates to command. Perhaps it's down to office politics. In Andy Chaikin's book, I think Cunningham and Schweickart were regarded, like Anders and Bean, as test engineers - 'scientists' even - rather than potential CDR material. Yet Bean flew as CDR on Skylab-3.

A real minefield.

Offline Jamie Young

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #54 on: 02/20/2006 04:38 pm »
Can I ask. There seems to be a lot of controvosy about some of the crew selections during the Apollo and surrounding times.

Has this not been seen with the Shuttle as I've never heard of such things. I was born after the last Apollo mission though.

Offline carmelo

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #55 on: 02/20/2006 06:52 pm »
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Ben E - 20/2/2006  10:30 AM

Without questioning the competence of the Skylab-4 crew, it seems unusual that three rookies should fly when, in my mind, Cunningham or Schweickart were far more qualified candidates to command. Perhaps it's down to office politics. In Andy Chaikin's book, I think Cunningham and Schweickart were regarded, like Anders and Bean, as test engineers - 'scientists' even - rather than potential CDR material. Yet Bean flew as CDR on Skylab-3.

A real minefield.
Yes,true.With Deke's metod of assignment,backcrew of SK-2 would have had first crew on SK-4.Sk-2 backcrew was not a "dead-end" assignment like Gemini-12 or Apollo-17.Carr and Pogue would not have had occasion to fly untill Space Shuttle? Yes,but for poor Bruce Mccandless (same class of astronauts of Carr and Pogue) was not the same thing?Cunningham and Schweickart  worked on Skylab from 1969,jump over they was dirty.And..Rusty's crew  would not have go to strike like Carr's Crew.Sure not Walt,after the Apollo-7 lesson.

Offline Jim

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #56 on: 02/20/2006 07:53 pm »
"SK"???? Do you mean "SL" for Skylab?

Offline carmelo

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #57 on: 02/20/2006 08:38 pm »
yes. :(

Offline carmelo

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #58 on: 02/20/2006 08:40 pm »

Without questioning the competence of the Skylab-4 crew, it seems unusual that three rookies should fly when, in my mind, Cunningham or Schweickart were far more qualified candidates to command. Perhaps it's down to office politics. In Andy Chaikin's book, I think Cunningham and Schweickart were regarded, like Anders and Bean, as test engineers - 'scientists' even - rather than potential CDR material. Yet Bean flew as CDR on Skylab-3.

A real minefield.
Yes,true.With Deke's metod of assignment,backcrew of SL-2 would have had first crew on SL-4.SL-2 backcrew was not a "dead-end" assignment like Gemini-12 or Apollo-17.Carr and Pogue would not have had occasion to fly untill Space Shuttle? Yes,but for poor Bruce Mccandless (same class of astronauts of Carr and Pogue) was not the same thing?Cunningham and Schweickart worked on Skylab from 1969,jump over they was dirty.And..Rusty's crew would not have go to strike like Carr's Crew.Sure not Walt,after the Apollo-7 lesson.


Offline rsp1202

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RE: Apollo minus the Fire
« Reply #59 on: 02/20/2006 08:57 pm »
Cunningham worked very hard after Apollo 7 on the Skylab program and was responsible for much of its success. There were X number of astronauts for a finite number of missions through Skylab, and though I don't presume to know Slayton's mind, maybe he tried to have as many of them fly as he could, so guys like Cunningham missed out on a second chance, despite all his selfless efforts for the program. Don't know why Bean got command of Skylab 3, but he acquitted himself quite well on Apollo 12. Interesting that he followed his old commander Conrad into orbit, so maybe Pete put in a good word. Others, like McCandless and Lind, had to wait for the shuttle.

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