Author Topic: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program  (Read 28022 times)

Offline Jonesy STS

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President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« on: 01/20/2007 05:05 pm »
If she gets into office what do we think will result as far as NASA, the budget and the VSE?

Also, I don't know if it really makes a lot of difference, as in the UK, the Prime Minister can't really decide things, it all goes to a vote in the House of Commons, which then has to vote in law and policy as a majority...it just helps if your party has a big majority (apart from the war, which had Labour rebels, but the Conservatives made up for that when it came to the vote). Then the Queen, as reigning Monarch, has to approve it in.

So how does it work. Is it more to do with what party is in charge, rather than what president? But, Hillary said on the news that she's going after Bush's policies and the VSE is a President Bush policy right?

Offline Rocket Ronnie

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #1 on: 01/20/2007 05:10 pm »
Quote
Jonesy STS - 20/1/2007  12:05 PM
Then the Queen, as reigning Monarch, has to approve it in.


The Queen has no real power. She simply signs in the Prime Minister to create policy for the nation, but because we're a democracy, the Monach would never opposed an elected party/prime minister, and thus gives the green light for Parliment to decide the policies. The Prime Minister and Parliment holds the power.

Offline HailColumbia

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #2 on: 01/20/2007 05:20 pm »
in theory, congress has equal power as the president, but in practice, the president is more powerful. The president can veto anything the congress does, it takes a 2/3 vote to override a veto. If the congress and the president are of the same party, then the president can pretty much do whatever he/she wants. If its split power, it slows the president down some, but its very hard for the congress to just assume control, that veto is a killer.

I dont know what Hillary's specific position on NASA or the VSE is, but I have a feeling that it cant be good.
She strikes me as one of those "how many schools could we buy for the cost of a B-2" types. I would imagine that she would gut NASA to pay for her socalist utopita. She is far to the left of her husband.
-Steve

Offline Justin Space

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #3 on: 01/20/2007 05:46 pm »
That Veto sounds a bit worrying. Can anyone bring down the president if say one went veto crazy?

And on the King/Queen. The way it used to work was the monarch used to be about leading the Army in wartime, from the Crusades upwards. We're kinda going back to that, with future King Prince William and even Prince Harry now full time officers in the British Army (and both going to Iraq it would seem). Prince Andrew is Royal Navy.

Prince William is going to be an amazing King. He's modern, a normal lad, a football fan (I think he was at Villa's 2-0 win today) and earning his way in the armed forces. He'll shake the country back to being great.

Offline PurduesUSAFguy

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #4 on: 01/20/2007 06:03 pm »
Hillary has stated previously that, "The space program is inspiring but is an expense we can afford with problems here on Earth"

Hillary would be a disaster, not just for the space program, in general.


Offline JJ..

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #5 on: 01/20/2007 06:10 pm »
"it all goes to a vote in the House of Commons, which then has to vote in law and policy as a majority"

is that how it works then ? id hate it if the prime minister could pass stuff without parlimentry aproval  ;)

didn't hillary and bill rub shoulders with bob cabana for a while ?
i thoaght that might have been a good sign (insert a very cynical smiley here)  ;)

JJ..
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Offline HailColumbia

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #6 on: 01/20/2007 06:44 pm »
Quote
Justin Space - 20/1/2007  1:46 PM

That Veto sounds a bit worrying. Can anyone bring down the president if say one went veto crazy?


like I said, a veto can be overruled with a 2/3 vote.

There have been 2,551 vetos since washington, 106 have been overruled.

George W. Bush has vetoed a total of one time in his presidency, I suppose that is expected when your party has control of congrees. I expect more vetos out of him the next 2 years.
-Steve

Offline vt_hokie

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #7 on: 01/20/2007 07:03 pm »
Quote
PurduesUSAFguy - 20/1/2007  2:03 PM

Hillary would be a disaster, not just for the space program, in general.


I agree.  I am a somewhat left leaning independent, but I really hope the Dems nominate a better candidate than Mrs. Clinton for '08.

Offline Zachstar

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #8 on: 01/20/2007 07:19 pm »
I'm hearing conflicting reports about her support for the space program. Most of them say she supports a mars push.

However I'm not going to vote another republican in just because he supports the VSE. Things are bad enough as it is. I'm simply voting for the libertarian ticket.

What about Obama-D ? What's his views?

Offline punkboi

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #9 on: 01/20/2007 07:20 pm »

Quote
vt_hokie - 20/1/2007 12:03 PM
Quote
PurduesUSAFguy - 20/1/2007 2:03 PM Hillary would be a disaster, not just for the space program, in general.
I agree. I am a somewhat left leaning independent, but I really hope the Dems nominate a better candidate than Mrs. Clinton for '08.

 I voted Democrat the last two elections... I just might vote Right in the next one.  Or maybe just waste my vote if Ralph Nader runs again. ;)


Offline Jorge

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #10 on: 01/20/2007 07:23 pm »
Quote
Jonesy STS - 20/1/2007  12:05 PM

If she gets into office what do we think will result as far as NASA, the budget and the VSE?

Also, I don't know if it really makes a lot of difference, as in the UK, the Prime Minister can't really decide things, it all goes to a vote in the House of Commons, which then has to vote in law and policy as a majority...it just helps if your party has a big majority (apart from the war, which had Labour rebels, but the Conservatives made up for that when it came to the vote). Then the Queen, as reigning Monarch, has to approve it in.

So how does it work. Is it more to do with what party is in charge, rather than what president? But, Hillary said on the news that she's going after Bush's policies and the VSE is a President Bush policy right?

51D Mascot can describe this much better, but the general process goes like this:

1) In February, after the State of the Union address, the president delivers a budget proposal to Congress.
2) The House and Senate Appropriations subcommittees that oversee NASA take up the budget first. They can use the president's budget as a starting point or they can tear it apart and start over (and declare the president's budget "dead on arrival"). After they're done, the spending (appropriations) bill goes to the full Appropriations committees in each house, then to the full House and Senate. Normally the Appropriations bills wind up different from each other, in which case the House and Senate form a conference committee to reconcile the differences and send the bills back to the full House or Senate for another vote.
3) The bill then goes to the president, who can either sign it into law, allow it to become law without his signature, or veto it. If the end of a session of Congress is near, the president can hold onto the bill without signing it or vetoing it until after Congress adjourns and the bill expires ("pocket veto").
4) If the president vetoes a bill, the veto can be overridden by a 2/3 vote of both houses. Congress usually makes it difficult for the president to veto an appropriations bill in the first place by bundling them all together into one big ("Omnibus") bill. This bill usually contains a lot of stuff that is important to the president and makes him very reluctant to veto it. Presidents have often proposed being given the power to strike down just part of a bill ("line-item veto"), but Congress is reluctant to give them that power, for obvious reasons.

In theory, this process should be complete before the next Fiscal Year begins on October 1. If not, Congress usually passes a Continuing Resolution that funds each agency at the previous year's level until the Appropriations bill finally passes. If they fail to pass one, the Continuing Resolution runs for the entire fiscal year. That's what's happening this year.

Also in theory there should be another process between 1) and 2) where the House and Senate pass Authorization bills that set out how much money each agency is authorized to spend, but this doesn't seem to happen with NASA on a fairly regular basis.

As far as Hillary herself is concerned, I don't think she cares that much one way or another. She will try to protect her husband's legacy (ISS and Earth Science) but that's about it. This is not an issue she campaigns on and so it will be a low priority. In practice that means that Congress, and in particular the majority (Democratic) members of the Appropriations committees, will have a lot of say in the matter. On the House side, this is a Bad Thing for NASA Exploration. David Obey chairs Appropriations and he is a well-known skeptic of VSE. On the Senate side, Barbara Mikulski is the Appropriations chair and she is a well-known NASA booster, especially Goddard since it is in her state. She has also allied herself with Hutchison and Nelson to try to increase NASA's budget. This will likely result in House and Senate bills that are considerably different from each other so the Conference committees will have a considerable say in how things turn out.

Personally, I predict the following outcome:

1) NASA's overall budget remains roughly constant, failing to keep up with inflation. There is no strong sentiment among the American people to increase NASA's budget - nor is there strong sentiment to cut it. Congress will likely be responsive to that sentiment, especially in the current fiscal environment.
2) NASA's budget for science and aeronautics will be increased. Many of the field centers that do that kind of work (Ames, JPL, Dryden, Glenn, Goddard, and Langley) tend to be represented by Democrats, and they are angry about perceived cuts to those programs. (The science budget wasn't really cut, just elimination of previously scheduled increases. The Aeronautics budget took a real cut.)
3) The shuttle/ISS budget will remain constant until the orbiters are retired. No one wants to make a cut that would be perceived as threatening safety of current human spaceflight operations. On the flip side, there will be no push to extend shuttle operations past 2010.
4) Add all those up and you see that the odd man out is Exploration. ESMD is going to take it in the shorts. The field centers doing Exploration work (Johnson, Stennis, Marshall, and Kennedy) tend to be represented by Republicans. There is no strong champion for NASA VSE in Congress that can rival the power that DeLay wielded in the previous Congress. The 2007 Continuing Resolution is only the beginning, I'm afraid.

As we have already seen with the 2007 Continuing Resolution, the NASA Administrator is not entirely powerless against this. He can (and in the case of Griffin, will) move money around within the agency to protect Exploration from cuts. Whether that will continue under a hypothetical Clinton administration depends on whether Clinton decides to keep Griffin as NASA Administrator, and if not, who she replaces him with. I am not optimistic.
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JRF
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Offline collectSPACE

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #11 on: 01/20/2007 07:26 pm »
From "2009: a space vision," a 2005 article by Chris Carberry, published by The Space Review:

Quote
Hillary Clinton does not have much of a history with regard to the space program. While it is true that the Clintons were the only First Couple to be present at a space shuttle launch (the John Glenn launch), President Bill Clinton’s terms in office were accompanied by declining NASA budgets and a perceived lack of vision for the future of the space program. This certainly does not mean that the same trend would prevail during a Hillary Clinton presidency, however. Since becoming a senator, she has certainly shown that she is no political clone of her husband. Whether this will translate into a strong support for Moon, Mars, and beyond is unknown. To date she has voted favorably on key legislation: she voted for the fiscal year 2005 NASA budget, which was one of the first major hurdles for the Vision.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/408/1

More recently, Jeff Foust wrote about the 2009 presidency on the occasion of the Vision's three-year anniversary:

Quote
When the Democrats regained control of Congress in the November elections, some wondered if this would result in a change in direction for NASA. In the near term, that appears to be unlikely. The Vision has had bipartisan support in Congress over the last three years, including overwhelming passage of a NASA authorization bill in 2005 that explicitly endorsed the Vision. The new Democratic leaders of key committees may take a fresh look at NASA and the Vision, but Congress doesn’t seem likely to press for wholesale changes in the Vision. Even if it wanted to, there are simply too many other higher political priorities at the moment to warrant giving NASA much attention...

Given the depth of public support (or lack thereof) for the Vision to date, a new president could shift NASA’s direction away from the Vision with little outcry, especially if the program appeared flawed. However, space is unlikely to be a high priority for the next president, given all the other pressing issues in the nation and world. A Vision that is running relatively smoothly isn’t immune from significant change or even cancellation, depending on the desires of the new president, but it will help the program avoid undesirable attention and give it a fighting chance to continue in more or less its current form by the next administration. That makes the next two years as critical as any for NASA and supporters of the Vision for Space Exploration.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/785/1

Mark Whittington blogged about Foust's article on his site, Curmudgeons Corner, and I agree with his sentiments:

Quote
The main danger (or opportunity depending on ones point of view) may be the desire of the new President to put his or her own stamp on the program. One could see--for example--a Gingrich Administration trying to make the Vision more commercial (though what that would entail one cannot be certain.) A Hillary Clinton Administration might--following the lead of her husband--make the project more of an instrument of foreign policy, bringing in the Chinese for example, deemphasizing the commercial aspects.
http://curmudgeons.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_curmudgeons_archive.html#116887456037383648

Offline mong'

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #12 on: 01/20/2007 08:21 pm »
I tend to agree with the second opinion, NASA isn't exactly high profile these days on the political scene, whoever is the next president s/he will have plenty to do with Iraq/deficit/foreign policy, I doubt NASA will get much attention, especially if things go smoothly. but any cost overrun or delay could change that and make it a target.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #13 on: 01/20/2007 09:34 pm »
Interesting links Robert!

It's a long way off and the Democrats have a while to pick who will represent the party in the Presidential elections, right? And President Bush stands down after this term? Any ideas on who'll replace him - and would Jeb Bush be a good one for the Space Program, given he's Florida?...if the Republicans get in again.

Who would be the absolute ideal President for NASA (pretend)? Hutchinson? Mikulski?
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Offline mong'

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #14 on: 01/20/2007 10:31 pm »
Mike Griffin ?
just kidding ! ;)

Offline RedSky

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #15 on: 01/20/2007 10:50 pm »
I think Jeb (actually John Ellis Bush "JEB") would be a remarkable president and good for NASA.  Sad to say, he is everything his brother isn't:  intellegent, articulate, level headed,  a realist, and speaks Spanish fluently.  He met his Mexican wife while teaching English as an exchange student  in Mexico in 1970.  I didn't know much about him until I moved to FL four years ago.   After seeing how he handled the hurricane emergencies here in FL in 2004 and 2005...   all I could think of was that they really ran the wrong Bush for president.  It's too bad he had to step down as governor due to term limits.

I can't imagine, though, that he would have any chance at running:  the country just won't  go for another Bush... too much like a monarchy or royal family.  At least not without another Clinton spaced in between!  But then there is always Jeb's son,  George P.  who with a law degree from Rice University, being half Mexican and bilingual,  handsome, etc...  could really be a condender if he went into politics.

I have a feeling though, that for 2008 the Dem ticket is going to be Clinton-O'Bama, which may be a combination difficult to beat for the Republicans given who they have considering a run.

Offline Dana

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #16 on: 01/20/2007 11:07 pm »
The election of Hillary Clinton to the Presidency would be a disaster for the entire country in general as well as for NASA. She will most likely get on the ticket by categorically opposing every single thing the Republican side stands for or supports in order to win the leftist hard-liners, whether it's good for the country or not. Just like her husband-ANYTHING to get elected. This means that yes, she will oppose any kind of visionary space program, simply because it was Bush's idea-absolutely no other reason. If the exact same policy had been the brainchild of a Democratic president on his way out, even at twice the price, she would most likely support it along party lines, because it would get her elected.

While I would never vote for any candidate for any relevant office who doesn't support a healthy space program, that's not even the main reason I would never vote for Mrs. Clinton. The main reason is, she is still Mrs. CLINTON. All you have to do is see that she is still married to a man who she knows full well cheats on her and makes her look like an enabling fool to know why she would be a lousy President: She lets people walk all over her and push her around and get away with it. That's not the kind of person who should be leading a nation, especially in time of war. There are lots of women out there made of strong enough stuff to be President, but she's not one of them. Sorry, Hillary, but the White House already has a doormat.
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Offline Rocket Guy

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #17 on: 01/20/2007 11:12 pm »
Let's keep this topic on the subject of "and the space program," please.

Offline Dana

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #18 on: 01/20/2007 11:21 pm »
Quote
collectspace - 20/1/2007  4:16 PM

I agree with Ben; this site prides itself on staying on-topic. It would be nice if the participants abide by that and limit their own opinions to those relevant to the space program...

OK-to sum it up, IMO based on her past statements and actions, Hillary would all but shut down any kind of meaningful space program.
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Offline collectSPACE

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #19 on: 01/20/2007 11:30 pm »
Quote
Dana - 20/1/2007  6:21 PM

OK-to sum it up, IMO based on her past statements and actions, Hillary would all but shut down any kind of meaningful space program.

Except that her past actions would disagree with this position, as she has voted favorably for NASA funding, among other examples. Not to mention the points raised above: that the space program would be too low on the radar for any newly appointed president in 2009 to make any dramatic changes.

(I had removed my post to edit it at apparently the same time you responded, hence the now stranded quote.)

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #20 on: 01/20/2007 11:46 pm »
These threads usually boil down to assigning all good things to whichever candidate or party the poster supports, and denigrating all the others.  Having said that, HRC has never been a big ideological proponent of NASA, and I doubt that ideology will play much of a part in support of NASA in the next administration, whoever is elected.  NASA is fairly cheap, as government programs go.  The best way to ensure a good budget is to make your support of NASA known.  The next administration will (hopefully) see the completion of the ISS and the first steps toward a return to exploration.  If the public is excited about those things, no President will touch the NASA budget.   If no one cares, well, then it's hard to blame a President for cutting funding for a program that no one cares about.

We have strong bipartisan support (speaking as a Texan) in Senator Hutchinson and Congressman Lampson, and I assume the other states with space centers do as well.  And that bodes well for NASA.  Supporting bold space exploration is also a nice diversion from whatever major screw-ups and scandals an administration is involved in - it's a great way to look presidential and courageous.

Online Chris Bergin

RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #21 on: 01/20/2007 11:56 pm »
As was my purpose asking about Hutchinson and Mikulski, let's just work this thread on the potential effects a change in the political climate could have on NASA, rather than the overall domestic scene. I used those two names as it showed how members of opposing parties worked together on a common interest. A lot of us know how supportive Hutchingson has been for the space program, and I'm sure we all thought Mikulski's speech at the Hubble servicing mission announcement was superb.

We've all got our own political preferences, and I think people know mine are very obvious ;) but let's try to keep this thread clean of that for the purpose of having an objective understanding of how this could all play out for NASA and very much so for the VSE.
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Offline Dana

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #22 on: 01/20/2007 11:56 pm »
Quote
collectspace - 20/1/2007  4:30 PM

Quote
Dana - 20/1/2007  6:21 PM

OK-to sum it up, IMO based on her past statements and actions, Hillary would all but shut down any kind of meaningful space program.

Except that her past actions would disagree with this position, as she has voted favorably for NASA funding, among other examples. Not to mention the points raised above: that the space program would be too low on the radar for any newly appointed president in 2009 to make any dramatic changes.

(I had removed my post to edit it at apparently the same time you responded, hence the now stranded quote.)

She wasn't running for President then.
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Offline kevin-rf

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #23 on: 01/21/2007 01:18 am »
Quote
Dana - 20/1/2007  6:56 PM
She wasn't running for President then.

She still has to get nominated first, Having loaned out floor space to dean supporters during the last primary I can tell you there are many in the democratic party who dislike her more than the average republican.  

I do think she is unstopable if becomes the dem. canidate in '08.

I fear for more than the space program if she wins.
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Offline hornet

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #24 on: 01/21/2007 02:07 am »
if your concerned she started her explortory commite today go to her website and tell her your concen about the space program people will read any letter sent during this phase to see what people think and if enough people say something she will listen

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #25 on: 01/21/2007 02:32 am »
Quote
hornet - 20/1/2007  9:07 PM

if your concerned she started her explortory commite today go to her website and tell her your concen about the space program people will read any letter sent during this phase to see what people think and if enough people say something she will listen

No they categorize, tabulate, and run a bunch of statistics on it. Anything that is not statistically significant is considered noise and mostly ignored. Most congress critters have whole staffs for doing these tabulations.

There would need to be national grass roots support for the space program for it to show up in her platform. Unless NASA ends up in her sites as a scape goat. Something we definately do not want.
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Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #26 on: 01/21/2007 02:41 am »
Hillary Clinton has never made statements about manned spaceflight as negative and inflammatory as those said by Nancy Pelosi. Hillary is a much better compromiser these days than she once would have been. If the Aerospace Contractors and space-minded American citizens let her know loudly and clearly that she mustn't cancel or mess with VSE too much, she just may leave it alone, at least in her first term. Iraq and Medicare will be more on her menu than Nasa. So if Nasa works hard and keeps their heads down, Ares 1/Orion could fly before the end of her (or someone else's) first term.

The Vision For Space Exploration MUST survive. COTS must be augmented and Private Space MUST be successful. These next few years are crucial for the survival of manned spaceflight in general, let alone American manned spaceflight. U.S. citizens must tell Clinton, Obama & Edwards that Nasa and manned space exploration are crucial for America's technology, future, national security and prestige.

You know it, I know it: let them know it!!
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Offline JonSBerndt

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #27 on: 01/21/2007 03:07 am »
Quote
PurduesUSAFguy - 20/1/2007  1:03 PM

Hillary has stated previously that, "The space program is inspiring but is an expense we can afford with problems here on Earth"

Hillary would be a disaster, not just for the space program, in general.


Polls almost universally show her behind McCain (apart from CNN and Newsweek - no surprise?). It's way too early ...

Jon

Offline MKremer

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #28 on: 01/21/2007 03:15 am »
Personally, I don't think there's any accurate way to determine how almost *any* gov't program will fare post-2008, NASA or otherwise, regardless of who is elected.

 IOW, if the President submits a "tiny" NASA budget, but Congress feels otherwise, the give-and-take and final budget (and later appropriations) will determine what NASA finally has to work with.

Offline dbhyslop

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #29 on: 01/21/2007 03:29 am »
Quote
JonSBerndt - 20/1/2007  11:07 PM

Polls almost universally show her behind McCain (apart from CNN and Newsweek - no surprise?). It's way too early ...



I don't know if he's even a contender: Does the RNC want their candidate running his re-election campaign at 76, leaving office at 80?  Its unfortunate for all of us that he lost out in 2000, but I doubt he'll have another chance.

Offline spacester

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #30 on: 01/21/2007 03:42 am »

The key thing in my mind has not yet been mentioned here: whoever  the next POTUS is will have an opportunity to be "our hero". I suggest my fellow space advocates quit wringing their hands over imaginary worst-case scenarios and consider influencing things to achieve a positive outcome.

Even if space flight isn't a high priority for the new POTUS, a safe assumption in all cases AFAIK, at some point in the crafting of a budget they will look at NASA's funding and programs. The three choices are always to cut, stay flat or increase, and the recent history is flat budgets. To cut the budget is political suicide IMO, so in the absence of reasons to increase the budget they will choose to keep it that way.

In the absence of a strong demonstrated personal interest in our future in space, the standard party line can be safely assumed for nearly all congresscritters and senators: "I believe NASA is an important part of our country's future, especially in terms of inspiring our young people to take up careers in Science and Engineering. Our investment in space in important to our country but of course must be balanced with other priorities, such as (insert ideologically-driven pet programs here)"

If HRC wins, it can be safely assumed that will be a result of successfully positioning herself as a moderate. I take it as axiomatic that a liberal cannot win the White House any time soon. The right wing media will do their best to paint her as a fuzzy-headed liberal but they will likely do that in the absence of looking at her actual voting record and public positions. She cannot win unless she defeats the campaign to paint her as an unreformed liberal.
 

Therefore I conclude that in the absence of reasons to do otherwise, NASA budgets would remain flat and space exploration would have no particular prominence in her administration. So we need to make sure there is no absence of reasons for her to step up to the plate and put her own stamp on VSE.

There are a myriad of really good reasons to care about the space program and excellent strategic outcomes can be expected to ensue from wise investments in NASA and commercial space. I trust I do not need to convince present company of that, so the obvious conclusion is that we space advocates need to communicate those thoughts to all the candidates, in particular HRC.

Much has been made of the thought that VSE will be "canceled" by an incoming dem prez simply to distance themselves from the current guy. I think this is absurd from several points of view. There will be way too much institutional momentum and actual progress to just cancel it: think of the contractors and congresscritters and all their vested interests. I won't call it pork, either, I'm talking about the good work done by NASA centers, and under Griffin these programs are generally well-focused and important. Canceling is a political non-starter.

However things go over the next 1-1/2 years, it seems a safe assumption that there will not be any sense that the current administration will be known as having an inspiring vision of a positive future. The country will be very thirsty for a positive vision of the future - with tangible programs for securing such a future being the key to securing those votes.

IMO the primary political dynamic in the election of 2000 was a desire for a "man of the people" and the current guy's people jumped all over the opportunity and won. The people were hungry for something and they were provided an alternative which appeared to be able to sate that hunger. IMO the primary dynamic in 2008 will be a thirst for a positive vision of the future.

I predicted VSE in terms of the current guy needing to come up with some form of "positive vision thing" prior to his reelection campaign. The logic was simple: if you are talking about the future being demonstrably better than the past, if you are looking to define such a vision, what else is there besides space flight? Making war in the middle east for the next 30 years may be a vision, but a positive one? Does a successful moderate propose some form of updated 'Great Society'? Not bloody likely.

IMO a lot of people still have not figured out that the key to Bill Clinton's term is that he was a pragmatic moderate, operating in a polarized environment where the right wing was unable to process the very concept of being a moderate. Over and over he would adopt some of the positions of his political opposition and they would respond with outrage that he was "stealing their ideas." They hated him so much that even when they got what they wanted they hated him even more. Hillary was right there on the inside, watching and learning.

One of the marks of a reformed liberal is walking away from liberal dogma and in this case we need to make sure that you ain't an electable moderate if you remain in the "first we need to fix the problems right here on earth" camp. Ideally we would convince all the liberal voters but convincing the candidates is good enough.

It is frequently assumed that she is a political clone of her husband, but every thing I read by the political pundits indicates otherwise.

To wrap this up, all of this adds up to a terrific opportunity for space advocacy, even if she wins, but ONLY if we act NOW to put space flight and VSE on the agenda. If we wait until she's going thru the budget in Jan 2009, it will be flat. If we make a fuss now and educate all the candidates on the potential, we can make it an issue during the campaign. The political handlers will see the opportunity to provide a positive vision, and if we provide the details to them such that they are politically sound, we can cause the candidates to criticize VSE only on the basis of it being too slow and unambitious.

We can put a POTUS in place who wants to put their own name on VSE, by accelerating it.

Hillary as president would be in a position to be 'our hero' and so would all the others. But every one of them needs to be educated and we need to somehow make it a campaign issue.


Offline MKremer

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #31 on: 01/21/2007 03:50 am »
Quote
dbhyslop - 20/1/2007  10:29 PM

Quote
JonSBerndt - 20/1/2007  11:07 PM

Polls almost universally show her behind McCain (apart from CNN and Newsweek - no surprise?). It's way too early ...



I don't know if he's even a contender: Does the RNC want their candidate running his re-election campaign at 76, leaving office at 80?  Its unfortunate for all of us that he lost out in 2000, but I doubt he'll have another chance.

I'd suggest leaving the prospects of individual Presidential candidates' 'electibilities' to the political blogs, and concentrate more about how NASA's budget might be affected via the WH/Congress thereafter - considering Congress has almost as much to say about actual money disbursements as WH budget proposals.

Offline dbhyslop

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #32 on: 01/21/2007 04:06 am »
This exact thread happens anew every week, my apologies for not rehashing it verbatim to last time.

Back to the issue, people on this board tend to take every candidate they dislike--Democrat or Republican--and demonify them by assigning anti-spaceflight opinions to them; despite the fact that as 51DMascot always points out spaceflight has always had wide, bipartisan support and a geographically-diversified workforce that would make killing it political suicide.

Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #33 on: 01/21/2007 05:51 am »
Very good analysis and post, spacester.
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Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #34 on: 01/21/2007 07:11 am »
Any presidential candidate has to be aware that it could be a close election (might not, but that's the way to bet). One thing you don't want to do is unneccessarily antagonise large group of people in those states that will be close races themselves in a close race. One of them is Florida. Why propose to gut the manned space program? All it will get you is a lot of angry voters (don't forget their spouses, parent and adult children). And for what? Some people may prefer money spent on this be spent elsewhere, but few actually get upset about it. Sure, you could spend the money elsewhere, but in the scheme of things - federal budget things - it's not much money, and wouldn't go far.

And what applies to getting elected, applies to getting re-elected.

And most candidates actually want to achieve things whilst President. Domestically, that mean gaining Congressional support - the President proposes, but the Congress disposes. Even with your party in power, it doesn't mean you get everything that you propose. As Hillary Clinton, for example, will be well aware - her health care reform plan died in Congress despite the Democrats having majorities in both Houses. You don't want to unnecessarily antagonise people, because you might need their support at a later date. Lots of Democrats support the manned space program, but this applies to Republicans as well. Bill Clinton got lots of things through Congress even after Republicans took control because he could win the support of some Republicans on each issue.

So, what do I think will happen to the manned space program with a new President, even if Hillary Clinton? Pretty much nothing. There may be pressure to spend more money on science. But NASA doesn't want to spend less on science. It just doesn't have the money to do everything it wants on science and keep the manned space program going. But I'm sure they wouldn't object to an increased budget. And I don't think Republicans would be particularly opposed, they just don't want to propose it themselves.

Offline hektor

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #35 on: 01/21/2007 07:51 am »
Space will never be a campaign issue.

Offline MKremer

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #36 on: 01/21/2007 10:34 am »
Quote
CuddlyRocket - 21/1/2007  2:11 AM
There may be pressure to spend more money on science. But NASA doesn't want to spend less on science. It just doesn't have the money to do everything it wants on science and keep the manned space program going. But I'm sure they wouldn't object to an increased budget. And I don't think Republicans would be particularly opposed, they just don't want to propose it themselves.

Regardless of party, I think NASA will probably end up hurting for money (wanted vs. appropriated) as much as many other national Agencies after 2008, if both the Executive branch and Congress get serious about shrinking the budget deficit.

Of course alot depends on the economy and tax revenues, but I think many people and scientists in most every dicipline will have to end up being disappointed for several years because of wholesale budget trimming to reduce the overall federal budget deficit.

Offline clongton

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #37 on: 01/21/2007 12:56 pm »
Quote
punkboi - 20/1/2007  3:20 PM

Quote
vt_hokie - 20/1/2007 12:03 PM
Quote
PurduesUSAFguy - 20/1/2007 2:03 PM Hillary would be a disaster, not just for the space program, in general.
I agree. I am a somewhat left leaning independent, but I really hope the Dems nominate a better candidate than Mrs. Clinton for '08.

 I voted Democrat the last two elections... I just might vote Right in the next one.  Or maybe just waste my vote if Ralph Nader runs again. ;)

Please don't waste your vote. Vote for who you think could best benefit the country and the Space Program. Party lines are great for generalizations, but when the voting booth curtain closes, it's just you and your beliefs. Polititians are afraid of you because you control their future. Don't diminish your power.
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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #38 on: 01/21/2007 12:57 pm »
heh heh - POTUS.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #39 on: 01/21/2007 06:15 pm »
Quote
clongton - 21/1/2007  7:56 AM

Quote
punkboi - 20/1/2007  3:20 PM
I voted Democrat the last two elections... I just might vote Right in the next one.  Or maybe just waste my vote if Ralph Nader runs again. ;)

Please don't waste your vote. Vote for who you think could best benefit the country and the Space Program. Party lines are great for generalizations, but when the voting booth curtain closes, it's just you and your beliefs. Polititians are afraid of you because you control their future. Don't diminish your power.
Chuck

A vote that does not go to one of the main canidates is not a vote that goes to waste. It sends a very strong message that niether canidate is exceptable. I definately feel that my voting for nader the last two elections was two votes well spent. I dislike both Kerry and Gore much more than I dislike bush...
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Offline simonbp

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #40 on: 01/21/2007 07:08 pm »
Getting general for a minute, Hillary Clinton is strongly disliked by such a large chunk of the country that I really doubt she can get the Democratic nomination. Barak Obama is simply too young to get more than the vice presidency, unless the Dems are really stuck for someone. A winning candidate in the US presidential elections has to be liked by about a third of the population, and not disliked by another third...

That said, as long as NASA keeps doing reasonably well and providing the POTUS a chance to look high tech at the occasional photo op, the path back to the moon shouldn't be impeded. Where we go from there will be the more lasting influence of the 44th president...

Simon ;)

Offline Andrewwski

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #41 on: 01/22/2007 01:13 am »
Honestly, I don't see as how she'd cut the spending.  There's so much she'd prioritize to cut back on first...namely Iraq, and with NASA being fairly low-budget, there's not much to change.  Her best move would be to keep Mike Griffin.  Does he even have a party affiliation?
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Offline gladiator1332

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #42 on: 01/22/2007 01:50 am »
Quote
HailColumbia - 20/1/2007  1:20 PM

She is far to the left of her husband.

There is the key to why NASA is doomed if Hillary gets in. Bill wasn't exactly a big fan of NASA, and Hillary can't be anything but worse.

If you are going to vote Dem, pray for Bill Richardson, at least he supports spaceflight...he is a huge supporter of the spaceport in New Mexico. If he funds projects such as that he has to be good news for NASA.

“New Mexico is launching a new era of opportunity that will bring with it high-wage jobs and economic growth, particularly for southern New Mexico,” added Governor Richardson. “It is a cutting edge initiative that will help us continue to move our state forward.”

"Gov. Bill Richardson wants a $135 million commitment from the state: $100 million over the next three years from capital projects funds, $25 million this year from a state transportation program and $10 million already appropriated for spaceport-related projects."

http://photos.freenewmexican.com/2005/12/14/25561_375x375.jpg

He's got my vote.

Offline Waterfalldescender

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #43 on: 01/22/2007 03:02 am »
If Hillary Clinton gets elected, I believe it's effect on NASA will be substantial.  I would expect her to use Orion to maintain the ISS (for international political reasons), and little else. I do think that the heavy versions of ARES on the table to be scrapped, IV or V configuration.  Expect many probes to study global warming.  If I'm not mistaken, The First Bush Presidency (Daddy Bush) made extensive NASA preliminary studies of lunar return, and afterwards during the Clinton Presidency rejected those...the agency embraced the lower budgetary exploratory missions that were easy in the budget.

    I don't think Hillary will carry a state south of the Ohio River in the general election.  She is a very polarizing figure in the American South,  or at least that is what I've seen.
   

Offline HailColumbia

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #44 on: 01/22/2007 03:28 am »
Does anyone know John McCain's stamce on NASA? I really like McCain, but I don't know his stance on this issue.
-Steve

Offline punkboi

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #45 on: 01/22/2007 04:22 am »
Quote
clongton - 21/1/2007 5:56 AM
Quote
punkboi - 20/1/2007 3:20 PM

Quote
vt_hokie - 20/1/2007 12:03 PM
Quote
PurduesUSAFguy - 20/1/2007 2:03 PM Hillary would be a disaster, not just for the space program, in general.
I agree. I am a somewhat left leaning independent, but I really hope the Dems nominate a better candidate than Mrs. Clinton for '08.

 I voted Democrat the last two elections... I just might vote Right in the next one.  Or maybe just waste my vote if Ralph Nader runs again. ;)

Please don't waste your vote. Vote for who you think could best benefit the country and the Space Program. Party lines are great for generalizations, but when the voting booth curtain closes, it's just you and your beliefs. Polititians are afraid of you because you control their future. Don't diminish your power. Chuck

 Thanks for the advice.  McCain, it is.  As soon as I know his stance on the space program ;)


Offline vt_hokie

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #46 on: 01/22/2007 04:57 am »
McCain...hmm, don't think I could ever vote for a guy who hates passenger rail and Amtrak!   ;)

Offline HailColumbia

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #47 on: 01/22/2007 05:19 am »
Oh come on, passenger rail will never take off in the US, Amtrak is a waste of taxpayer dollars that could be spent on more rockets for NASA.
-Steve

Offline edkyle99

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #48 on: 01/22/2007 05:46 am »
Quote
Andrewwski - 21/1/2007  8:13 PM

Honestly, I don't see as how she'd cut the spending.  There's so much she'd prioritize to cut back on first...namely Iraq, and with NASA being fairly low-budget, there's not much to change.  Her best move would be to keep Mike Griffin.  Does he even have a party affiliation?

I was surprised when I looked at NASA's budget history versus which political party was in the White House.  The biggest decline occurred when a Republican (Nixon) was President, and the biggest increase when a Democratic administration (JFK/LBJ) ruled, but things haven't been that way since Nixon - since the end of the first "Space Race".  Since then, NASA's budget has been flat or in slight decline when the President was a Democrat and rising when a Republican was President.

 - Ed Kyle

Offline edkyle99

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #49 on: 01/22/2007 05:53 am »
Quote
gladiator1332 - 21/1/2007  8:50 PM

There is the key to why NASA is doomed if Hillary gets in. Bill wasn't exactly a big fan of NASA, and Hillary can't be anything but worse.

The Bill Clinton administration's approach to keeping NASA's budget under control was to turn the space station into a joint effort with Russia.  I suspect that international cooperation for Moon/Mars could be an approach used by a Hillary Clinton administration.

 - Ed Kyle

Offline Justin Space

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #50 on: 01/22/2007 10:15 am »
Is there a chance this could all end up with commerical plans by Lockheed Martin and SpaceX taking over as a commerical version of the VSE? Also on NASA, would it be a vote issue if it appeared the US was going to give up on getting to Mars first, especially if China showed they were making progress?

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #51 on: 01/22/2007 12:54 pm »
Quote
edkyle99 - 22/1/2007  12:46 AM

Quote
Andrewwski - 21/1/2007  8:13 PM

Honestly, I don't see as how she'd cut the spending.  There's so much she'd prioritize to cut back on first...namely Iraq, and with NASA being fairly low-budget, there's not much to change.  Her best move would be to keep Mike Griffin.  Does he even have a party affiliation?

I was surprised when I looked at NASA's budget history versus which political party was in the White House.  The biggest decline occurred when a Republican (Nixon) was President, and the biggest increase when a Democratic administration (JFK/LBJ) ruled, but things haven't been that way since Nixon - since the end of the first "Space Race".  Since then, NASA's budget has been flat or in slight decline when the President was a Democrat and rising when a Republican was President.

 - Ed Kyle

I would rephrase this to say "the biggest increased occurred under a president who had a great vision, the biggest decline occurred when that vision was realized".  





Offline Jorge

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #52 on: 01/22/2007 01:21 pm »
Quote
edkyle99 - 22/1/2007  12:46 AM

Quote
Andrewwski - 21/1/2007  8:13 PM

Honestly, I don't see as how she'd cut the spending.  There's so much she'd prioritize to cut back on first...namely Iraq, and with NASA being fairly low-budget, there's not much to change.  Her best move would be to keep Mike Griffin.  Does he even have a party affiliation?

I was surprised when I looked at NASA's budget history versus which political party was in the White House.  The biggest decline occurred when a Republican (Nixon) was President, and the biggest increase when a Democratic administration (JFK/LBJ) ruled,

You didn't look at it closely enough, then. LBJ cut NASA's budget more in his last three budgets than Nixon did in six.

Quote
but things haven't been that way since Nixon - since the end of the first "Space Race".  Since then, NASA's budget has been flat or in slight decline when the President was a Democrat and rising when a Republican was President.

That is correct, more or less. Measured over entire administrations, and adjusting for inflation, Nixon was the only Republican to cut NASA's budget, and JFK the only Democrat to raise it.
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Offline MartianBase

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Re: How much should NASA get?
« Reply #53 on: 01/22/2007 01:43 pm »
We are in an unofficial economic and strategic race with the Chinese who are keen on becoming the next Superpower. Most people don't see it yet because of the Whitehouse ties with Harkonen spice production. The folks in the Whitehouse are too keen on their quest in bringing democracy to the loonys of Middle East, a people who are a mirror of the Christian witch hunts and a people that go on a killing spree whenever they hear some newsweek rumor about a Koran getting flushed down a toilet.

China is playing a clever game, they are young and they have a long way to go but they are growing fast and now have the US economy by the balls whenever they helped buy up the USA's record defict and help balance the numbers. Every few months the Chinese grow stronger while the US burns $billions more in deficits. The Chinese are copying everything nowdays automobiles, computers, pharmaceuticals, aircraft...you name it they can copy it and make it cheaper, better and fast and now they have even updated the Russian Soyuz for their own Chinese missions.  Meanwhile people are busy outscourcing NASA projects to India or want to sell off missions to private sector frauds like Musk who makes ridiculous claims like he can fly to Mars for less than $8 million.

Perhaps in about 10 years we'll see China start looking at the red planet for itself....meanwhile US politicans finally finish the dirty job that Nixon wanted to do so much.

Offline clongton

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Re: How much should NASA get?
« Reply #54 on: 01/22/2007 01:47 pm »
Tell me again. This about Hillary Clinton how?
Your statements may or may not be valid, but they don't belong on this thread.
Please stay on-topic. Thanks
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Offline MartianBase

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #55 on: 01/22/2007 01:59 pm »
It's not about Hillary, Jeb Bush, Al-Gore, McCain or anyone in particular....its just that a lot of Presidents have been bad for NASA. Some of them would love to cut the funding even deeper or maybe even finish what Nixon started, however I image the public backlash would be quiet strong and breaking up NASA would be political suicide.

Hillary ain't the worst of the bunch but she's certainly not the best either.

The only people that seem to fully support the VSE are John McCain and Howard Dean
These two guys would fully fund manned missions to the Moon and Mars but their economic and foreign policy could quickly become a disaster.
I like McCain, he would get us to Mars but he is very old and has moments of mental weakness
Dean likes GW's Mars plan but is too left even for liberals and I hear deanites loved the 'DeanScream'


I've no idea who will win but expect the worst : Mars missons to be cut and a new Whitehouse President asking "Can we hack a few bits of the lunar CEV to save a few bucks"

Offline TheMadCap

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #56 on: 01/22/2007 02:02 pm »
Quote
Zachstar - 20/1/2007  2:19 PM

I'm hearing conflicting reports about her support for the space program. Most of them say she supports a mars push.

However I'm not going to vote another republican in just because he supports the VSE. Things are bad enough as it is. I'm simply voting for the libertarian ticket.

What about Obama-D ? What's his views?

Conflicting reports are not surprising with her. Her ususal M.O. is to see which way the wind is blowing that day, and then support that.

Not to turn this into a politics discussion, but I don't see her getting even nominated by the Dems. I think she is far too polarizing of a candidate to have a real chance...
I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.

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Offline hyper_snyper

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #57 on: 01/22/2007 02:10 pm »
Quote
Zachstar - 20/1/2007  2:19 PM

I'm hearing conflicting reports about her support for the space program. Most of them say she supports a mars push.

However I'm not going to vote another republican in just because he supports the VSE. Things are bad enough as it is. I'm simply voting for the libertarian ticket.

What about Obama-D ? What's his views?


Obama has a podcast he does every few weeks.  On one of them dealing with the deficit he mentioned the VSE (specifically the trip to Mars) as being something the nation can't afford.  Or something along those lines.

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #58 on: 01/22/2007 02:11 pm »
Quote
TheMadCap - 22/1/2007  9:02 AM

Quote
Zachstar - 20/1/2007  2:19 PM

I'm hearing conflicting reports about her support for the space program. Most of them say she supports a mars push.

However I'm not going to vote another republican in just because he supports the VSE. Things are bad enough as it is. I'm simply voting for the libertarian ticket.

What about Obama-D ? What's his views?

Conflicting reports are not surprising with her. Her ususal M.O. is to see which way the wind is blowing that day, and then support that.

Not to turn this into a politics discussion, but I don't see her getting even nominated by the Dems. I think she is far too polarizing of a candidate to have a real chance...


All the more reason  to make sure the wind is blowing the right way, eh?

My money's on Obama - a breath of fresh air.  Young, historic, personable and very little baggage.  As for his views on space?  TBD.

Offline clongton

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #59 on: 01/22/2007 02:19 pm »
Quote
MartianBase - 22/1/2007  9:59 AM
It's not about Hillary, Jeb Bush, Al-Gore, McCain or anyone in particular....
Mars Man;
That IS the point. THIS thread IS about Hillary Clinton. Check the title of the thread.
Like I said, your comments may or may not be valid, but that’s not the point. They are about a different topic than Hillary Clinton.

I’m sure there are lots of people who would like to explore the subjects you bring up, possibly even me. But THIS thread is about Senator Clinton as a President, and her alone. Please, if you would like to pursue the topics you mentioned, I would suggest that you either locate a thread which discusses them, or start one yourself, which any registered member can do. But keeping the threads on-topic is the only thing that brings order to the thousands of subjects/viewpoints raised at NSF for discussion. Trust me, you will find plenty of other members willing to discuss your other viewpoints, but in a more generalized thread than this "person-specific" thread.
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Offline gladiator1332

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #60 on: 01/22/2007 03:19 pm »
I'm not believing all of this Obama / Hillary hype...I would keep a closer eye on Richardson and Edwards. I don't think Mars stands a chance with Edwards either, but I really think Richardson will keep the VSE alive...but with more emphasis on private industry supporting the missions.

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #61 on: 01/22/2007 03:29 pm »
Remember - only 652 days until the next election!

Offline vt_hokie

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #62 on: 01/22/2007 03:47 pm »
Quote
gladiator1332 - 22/1/2007  11:19 AM

I'm not believing all of this Obama / Hillary hype...I would keep a closer eye on Richardson and Edwards.

Both would make strong candidates, imho.

Offline George CA

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #63 on: 01/22/2007 11:43 pm »
All politicans pamper to what the voters want. We should use this time to all join forces in making a voice for the space program. Any ideas?
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Offline Lunar Dreamer

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #64 on: 01/24/2007 04:03 pm »
I don't care if Ronald McDonald takes over. They won't care until there's a a big public push.

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #65 on: 01/25/2007 11:35 pm »
Oh boy, lots of great stuff here to jump in the middle of! hehe...been out of pocket for a couple of weeks getting ready to move, so missed this thread until now...will have to go back to the beginning and read through it and, I'm sure, won't be able to resist offering some "observations."
Offering only my own views and experience as a long-time "Space Cadet."

Offline Jeff Bingham

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #66 on: 01/26/2007 12:54 am »
Early in the thread, Jorge provided a good summary of the process for those wanting some perspective on how the NASA funding decisions are made, as a means of gauging how a President Hilary Clinton--or any President--would impact NASA. I just wanted to further clarify or amplify some of the excellent points he made, so will excerpt some of them and comment:

JRF: "In theory, this process should be complete before the next Fiscal Year begins on October 1. If not, Congress usually passes a Continuing Resolution that funds each agency at the previous year's level until the Appropriations bill finally passes. If they fail to pass one, the Continuing Resolution runs for the entire fiscal year. That's what's happening this year."

My comment: Actually, the Congress generally tries to complete all thirteen different appropriations bills as separate legislation. It is only when individual bills are not completed that they get wrapped into an “omnibus” (or “minibus”) bill in tandem with other appropriations bills not yet finalized by both Houses. The Continuing Resolution is a separate concept; generally used after October 1st for those areas of government whose appropriations have not been enacted, and usually for a date certain to enable time to complete action on those separate bills. Only if events lead to a stalemate or other cause for inability to complete those measures is a year-long CR used. The funding formula for an agency within a CR is generally something like a) The previous year’s enacted level, b) the House or Senate-passed level, or c) the current spending rate (calculated as a portion of the current fiscal year, but can be affected by the expenditure of carry-over funds, and thus be higher than appropriations levels), whichever is LOWER. And the separate “accounts” within NASA (There are 3, currently) can have different formulae applied to them, as in the present CR. It remains to be seen still what the exact formulation will be for the year-long CR, but the current betting is that, for the balance of the fiscal year 2007, NASA will be funded at the FY 2006 enacted level, which is about $520 million less than the proposed amount for FY 2007. The real key to the impact of this is the degree of “transfer authority” made available to the NASA Administrator. More on that below.

JRF: "Also in theory there should be another process between 1) and 2) where the House and Senate pass Authorization bills that set out how much money each agency is authorized to spend, but this doesn't seem to happen with NASA on a fairly regular basis."

My comment: Correct. Under a strictly-enforced process, no money can be appropriated that has not been previously authorized, but in the past twenty years or so the Congress has not followed that practice. It’s really a matter of the authorizing committees simply failing to re-authorize on a consistent basis. In 2005, Senator Hutchison, of Texas, became Chair of the authorizing subcommittee for NASA and vowed to change that. She developed, introduced, and passed the first re-authorization for NASA in five years (and the second in thirteen years!). That bill provided NASA’s authorization for FY 2007 AND FY 2008, so NASA does have an authorization bill to govern the upcoming budget cycle. And Senator Bill Nelson, the Democrat Chairman of that subcommittee now, fully intends to once again re-authorize NASA next year, for FY 2009 and beyond. So, for NASA, at least, this practice may be changing, we hope.

JRF: "3) The shuttle/ISS budget will remain constant until the orbiters are retired. No one wants to make a cut that would be perceived as threatening safety of current human spaceflight operations. On the flip side, there will be no push to extend shuttle operations past 2010."

My comment: Don’t be too sure about this…Bill Nelson favored language in the 2005 NASA Authorization bill that PROHIBITED a gap between the termination of the shuttle and the initial operational capability of its replacement vehicles. Senator Hutchison is also very deeply concerned about there being a gap and would likely be sympathetic to extending shuttle operations, especially as it would mean the even more robust outfitting of the US Segment of the International Space Station, for its service as a National Laboratory, as required by the Authorization Act

JRF: "As we have already seen with the 2007 Continuing Resolution, the NASA Administrator is not entirely powerless against this. He can (and in the case of Griffin, will) move money around within the agency to protect Exploration from cuts. Whether that will continue under a hypothetical Clinton administration depends on whether Clinton decides to keep Griffin as NASA Administrator, and if not, who she replaces him with. I am not optimistic."

My comment: As it currently stands, the Administrator can NOT transfer funds between accounts without specific authorization to do so. He can move money around within accounts, but even that can be constrained. That means, for example, he can only move money from Science or Aeronautics into Exploration, and vice versa. But he can NOT move money from Space Operations (Shuttle and Station) over to Science, Aeronautics or Exploration. The degree of transfer authority that will be provided in the extended CR is still under negotiation.

Apart from the above “nits” JRF did a great job summarizing the process!
Offering only my own views and experience as a long-time "Space Cadet."

Offline Jeff Bingham

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #67 on: 01/26/2007 01:21 am »
Regarding Senator Clinton's position on NASA, there really hasn't been much in the way of actual votes that would indicate that. The NASA Authorization Act of 2005 passed the Senate by Unanimous Consent, so there was no straight up or down vote on it that would be an indicator. The fact that she--or any other Senator--didn't raise an objection is suggestive of approval, but not "determinate."  With respect to voting for NASA appropriations, NASA is part of a bill that includes the Commerce Department, the State Department, and the Justice Department, so a vote for or against the "CJS" appropriations bill is also not an indicator, unless accompanied by a statement that singles out NASA as the basis for a vote. I'd have to agree with a lot of the charactizations here about her being at least benignly supportive, but not at the expense of other domestic and/or social programs.  I do recall that, after the space station redesign in 1993, and the replacement of the "Freedom" program with the International Space Station Alpha" program (temporarily), there was an effort to solicit names for the redesigned space station from students. About five names were selected from those submitted and forwarded to the White House, but no name ever emerged and the "rumor" was that the First Lady was insistent that the name be returned to "Freedom," and rather than let that take place and harken back to the perceived "baggage" of the Freedom program, the naming project was dropped altogether. The point is, that she did have an interest in that program, and apparently strongly-held views on it that could be construed as bgeing positive. But none of that translates into an indication of how she would perceive the space program as President.

One key point--and this might also apply to those who have commented about making space more of a political/campaign issue, or at least a source of broader public discussion and support--is the potential positive contribution of the space program to help address the growing concerns about US technological competitiveness and the need to increase US capabilities in education within the disciplines of science, technology, engineering and mathematics. These are broader areas that a President Clinton could be expected to be sympathetic to, so the more a case can be made for NASA and the VSE contribution to those goals, the greater likelihood there is for them to climb a little higher in the public consciousness and political debate.

Regarding questions about Senator McCain's positions on space, I would say that he's generally favorably disposed to space exploration and strongly negatively disposed to NASA's implementation of it. He was the author of the funding cap on the international space station which forced a flattened development funding curve which, had the development not been as far along as it was at the time, would likely have made it impossible to continue. The flat funding level would have forced extending the development schedule, and forced NASA up against the cap, leading to termination of the program. And no amount of logic or entreaties to the Senator or his staff would budge him from that constraint. They even wanted to keep the cap in place in the 2005 Authorization bill, despite the fact that by then all development had been completed and it was just a matter of assembly. (Compromise language required a sort of "cost summary" from the NASA Administrator.) Beyond that sort of narrow micro-management, Senator McCain generally has voted in support of NASA, when occasions presented themselves during the era when Senator Bumpers tried every year to kill the space station. The question of whether a President McCain would be a strong supporter of space exploration would be a "definite maybe."
Offering only my own views and experience as a long-time "Space Cadet."

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #68 on: 01/26/2007 02:39 pm »
Quote
bhankiii - 22/1/2007  4:29 PM

Remember - only 652 days until the next election!

When do they start campaigning? We might get to hear some of their thoughts once they get to States with large space industry links?
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Offline Firestarter

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #69 on: 01/26/2007 10:13 pm »
Space will never be important to politicians until the voters say it is. Problem is, NASA don't have a clue as to how to get the public interested.

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #70 on: 01/26/2007 11:21 pm »
Quote
Chris Bergin - 26/1/2007  9:39 AM

Quote
bhankiii - 22/1/2007  4:29 PM

Remember - only 652 days until the next election!

When do they start campaigning? We might get to hear some of their thoughts once they get to States with large space industry links?

They've already started.  Generally they'll spend most of their time and money in the early primary states - Iowa and New Hampshire.  There's going to be a bunch of new media in this election.  Hillary has already had an online Q&A.  There will be lots of youtube and podcasts and so on, too.  

I won't have much say in the primaries - by the time the Texas primary comes around it's usually all over.

Offline Jeff Bingham

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #71 on: 01/27/2007 01:11 am »
Quote
Firestarter - 26/1/2007  5:13 PM

Space will never be important to politicians until the voters say it is. Problem is, NASA don't have a clue as to how to get the public interested.

Sadly, that's generally been the case. Last week in Houston, Mike Griffin gave a speech that addressed this issue in what I thought was a very interesting, thoughtful and provocative way. I've attached it here as something that I think should be broadly available.

Later NOTE: Great minds, hehe...just noticed that Bhankiii provided a link to this speech in a new thread entitled "Real Reasons." I'd suggest folks go there and grab the speech and comment on it in that thread...it's worth some discussion, I think. I tried to go back and copy the link to that thread but the search engine seems to be hanging up--or my system is--but hopefully you can find it. I'll leave the document attached here, but again suggest anyone who wants to comment on it go to the other thread; search for "Real Reasons" and it should show up.
Offering only my own views and experience as a long-time "Space Cadet."

Offline Suzy

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #72 on: 01/27/2007 01:17 am »
Just wondering, are there any politicians, anywhere in the world, who are genuinely interested in spaceflight (and not just for political expediency)? Or is that too much to hope for?

Offline Jeff Bingham

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #73 on: 01/27/2007 02:03 am »
Quote
Suzy - 26/1/2007  8:17 PM

Just wondering, are there any politicians, anywhere in the world, who are genuinely interested in spaceflight (and not just for political expediency)? Or is that too much to hope for?

I can only really speak to US politicians. There have been a few over the years, in my experience, but not very many. Senator John Glenn, of course, Senator Jake Garn (who flew on the shuttle as a Senator in 1985, but was an avid space buff even before that--and was Chairman of NASA's appropriations subcommittee, where it mattered!) Senator Bill Nelson, who flew on the shuttle as a Congressman in 1986, just three weeks before the Challenger accident; Senator Jack Schmitt, who was one of the last two men to walk on the Moon on Apollo 17. Newt Gingrich was an avid space supporter with no major  constituency foundation or incentive in Georgia, to name a few. Others that could be mentioned are former Congressman Bob Walker, Current Congressman Ralph Hall, of Texas (but doesn't represent JSC or any other major space constituency; he is a "true believer," as is Rep. John Culberson.) However, I'd also have to say that even many of those for whom support for space exploration IS politically expedient, also have a strong personal interest; in this category I'd put Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, of Texas, Senator Barbara Mikulksi, of Maryland, Representative Nick Lampson, who took Tom DeLay's seat, Representative Bud Craemer, of Alabama, and probably a few others.

While it might be preferable to have "pure motivation" behind politicians' support for space exploration, I'll take expediency over no support at all. President Kennedy's support for Apollo could be seen as "expedient," as was LBJ's, for a time, but that support paid huge diividends for space exploration in any event. I believe Ronald Reagan was actually personally enthralled by space exploration, but certainly not as a "consuming passion."

Offering only my own views and experience as a long-time "Space Cadet."

Offline Paul Howard

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #74 on: 01/27/2007 04:17 am »
I think that is the problem. NASA has the right people running the show, but they lack PR. NASA.gov is bland, especially the front page articles, nothing to get you excited. Lazy media don't bother with it, and so on, resulting in the general public not being interested. Put this site in place of NASA.gov for a month and that'd help :) NASA needs to appear exciting, because it darn well is!! That's the tragedy.

Offline Mark Max Q

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #75 on: 02/02/2007 01:24 am »
I think we've seen the start of things to come with the budget reduction.

Offline SimonShuttle

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #76 on: 02/12/2007 06:34 pm »
Not sure what to make of that Omba, or whatever his name is, with his patronising of the Aussie PM.

Offline stefan1138

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #77 on: 02/12/2007 07:45 pm »
Quote
SimonShuttle - 12/2/2007  1:34 PM

Not sure what to make of that Omba, or whatever his name is, with his patronising of the Aussie PM.

What the story of Obama and the Australian Prime Minister?

Stefan :)

Offline hyper_snyper

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #78 on: 02/12/2007 08:01 pm »
Quote
stefan1138 - 12/2/2007  3:45 PM

Quote
SimonShuttle - 12/2/2007  1:34 PM

Not sure what to make of that Omba, or whatever his name is, with his patronising of the Aussie PM.

What the story of Obama and the Australian Prime Minister?

Stefan :)

Obama wants to withdraw from Iraq, Australian PM disagrees.  That basically the gist.

Offline stefan1138

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #79 on: 02/12/2007 08:07 pm »
Ok thanks for the info. Saw Obama´s speech on Cnn on Saturday but did not know about the issue with the "Aussie Guy".

Stefan :)

Online Chris Bergin

RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #80 on: 02/13/2007 10:18 am »
As much as I'd be tempted to give my own opinion on the Obama issue mentioned, we need to keep this on political elements in reference to the NASA budget.
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Offline oriolesfan61

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #81 on: 02/13/2007 08:29 pm »
Well, the Clintons [especially First Lady Hillary--who functioned as "co-President"] were openly hostile to the Military: Hillary went so far as to declare that she didn't want to see--or didn't like seeing--any military unifroms in the While House. I hope her hostility back then towards the military wouldn't extend to NASA. If the US can extract most of the troops from Iraq, that could free up more dollars for NASA. I don't know what Obama's budgetary priorities would be.

Offline clongton

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #82 on: 02/13/2007 08:40 pm »
Quote
oriolesfan61 - 13/2/2007  4:29 PM

If the US can extract most of the troops from Iraq, that could free up more dollars for NASA. I don't know what Obama's budgetary priorities would be.
Dave, sorry to disappoint, but exiting Iraq would free up zero dollars for NASA. That's because there is no line item in the federal budget for the war. All the combat operations were financed by "special appropriations", completely outside the budget. Translation: deficit spending. GW financed the war by doing what you and I go to jail for doing: spending money he doesn't have. He borrowed from our kid's future needs to do it. It's all in the national debt. Exiting Iraq stops the deficit growth, and nothing else. It does NOT free up funds for use by the space program or anything else. In fact, once we're out, it'll be time to start paying the bill. Sit with your kids (and grandkids if you have them) and explain what they're going to be paying for far into the future, instead of flying around the solar system. Sorry.
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Offline oriolesfan61

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #83 on: 02/13/2007 09:47 pm »
I think you mis-typed---you meant would NOT free up dollars, right?

My point is still valid, albeit less technical thans yours. When there is significant deficit spending, there is less tolerance for so-called "non-essential" programs in the regular budget.

Offline Bruce H

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #84 on: 05/06/2007 11:41 pm »
President H Clinton appears to be far less likley since this thread was first stared.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #85 on: 05/07/2007 01:24 am »
Quote
Bruce H - 6/5/2007  6:41 PM

President H Clinton appears to be far less likley since this thread was first stared.

By what logic? She is still a very viable canidate.
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Offline khallow

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #86 on: 05/07/2007 02:52 am »
Hmmm, glancing at TradeSports, a stock market-style Irish betting market, Clinton has been holding steady since just before the begining of the year at just under 50% chance of her getting the Democrat nomination for president. Obama has jumped up sharply to around 30% (I guess once his funding raising became public information). So that market is saying that there's around a 75-80% that one of them gets the nomination. Gore and Edwards are the only two remaining who are listed at nontrivial odds (Gore at just above 10% and Edwards at just above 8%)

On the Republican side, Giuliani has above 30%, McCain above 20%, Fred Thompson and Romney at 17% each. So there's the odds, for your edification.

My take is that since NASA funding is approved by Congress, it's likely to remain funded despite a new president. Whatever is funded and in progress will probably continue to be. So Ares I probably will survive, if it has sufficient momentum by January 2009. The Shuttle probably will end on schedule simply because it's supply chain will be too expensive to restart. Long term plans are (in my humble opinion) in jeopardy, but I'd be more worried about neutering from expensive redesign, funding delays, and modifications.
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Offline vt_hokie

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RE: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #87 on: 05/07/2007 03:02 am »
It's really a shame that our political leadership is basically like royalty now, with only the big money Washington insiders having a realistic shot at getting nominated and elected.  Can't say I'm optimistic about any of the candidates from either side of the aisle.

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #88 on: 05/07/2007 03:11 am »
Very true, sadly the canidates that have the best chance of winning the general election have little chance of surviving the special interest groups in there respective parties presidental primaries.
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Offline Jorge

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #89 on: 05/07/2007 02:59 pm »
Quote
clongton - 13/2/2007  3:40 PM

Quote
oriolesfan61 - 13/2/2007  4:29 PM

If the US can extract most of the troops from Iraq, that could free up more dollars for NASA. I don't know what Obama's budgetary priorities would be.
Dave, sorry to disappoint, but exiting Iraq would free up zero dollars for NASA. That's because there is no line item in the federal budget for the war. All the combat operations were financed by "special appropriations", completely outside the budget. Translation: deficit spending. GW financed the war by doing what you and I go to jail for doing: spending money he doesn't have.

Incorrect. Bush (and previous presidents) are simply borrowing money on the good credit of the US Government. I do that every day, every time I use a credit card. So do millions of other Americans.
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Offline clongton

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #90 on: 05/07/2007 03:21 pm »
Quote
Jorge - 7/5/2007  10:59 AM

Quote
clongton - 13/2/2007  3:40 PM

Quote
oriolesfan61 - 13/2/2007  4:29 PM

If the US can extract most of the troops from Iraq, that could free up more dollars for NASA. I don't know what Obama's budgetary priorities would be.
Dave, sorry to disappoint, but exiting Iraq would free up zero dollars for NASA. That's because there is no line item in the federal budget for the war. All the combat operations were financed by "special appropriations", completely outside the budget. Translation: deficit spending. GW financed the war by doing what you and I go to jail for doing: spending money he doesn't have.

Incorrect. Bush (and previous presidents) are simply borrowing money on the good credit of the US Government. I do that every day, every time I use a credit card. So do millions of other Americans.
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JRF
Sorry - wrong.
The deficit spending that you and I do every day with our credit cards is not the same as the deficit spending being done at the federal level.
You and I have to repay what we "borrow". The feds, on the other hand, just keep pushing up the national debt number until it breaks. By the time it does, you and I will be worm food and our grandchildren will be burdened with the task of trying to find some way to "pay back the debt".
Personal deficit spending by you and I has the check and balance of our own ability to repay. When we PERSONALLY can no longer afford to repay, the ability to borrow is removed, but we still have the obligation to PERSONALLY repay.And if we don't, they will take what we own away. WE repay our OWN debts.
Federal deficit spending is unrestrained, and won't be repaid by the people running up the debt. That is a VERY BIG difference. I hope you do not have any children or grandchildren, because THEY are the ones that will be footing the bill for GW's personal war.
In short, my original observation stands. Ending the Iraq war will not free up funds for the space program, because there are no funds to free up. It's all debt financed.
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Jorge

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Re: President Hillary Clinton and the Space Program
« Reply #91 on: 05/07/2007 04:26 pm »
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clongton - 7/5/2007  10:21 AM

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Jorge - 7/5/2007  10:59 AM

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clongton - 13/2/2007  3:40 PM

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oriolesfan61 - 13/2/2007  4:29 PM

If the US can extract most of the troops from Iraq, that could free up more dollars for NASA. I don't know what Obama's budgetary priorities would be.
Dave, sorry to disappoint, but exiting Iraq would free up zero dollars for NASA. That's because there is no line item in the federal budget for the war. All the combat operations were financed by "special appropriations", completely outside the budget. Translation: deficit spending. GW financed the war by doing what you and I go to jail for doing: spending money he doesn't have.

Incorrect. Bush (and previous presidents) are simply borrowing money on the good credit of the US Government. I do that every day, every time I use a credit card. So do millions of other Americans.
--
JRF
Sorry - wrong.
The deficit spending that you and I do every day with our credit cards is not the same as the deficit spending being done at the federal level.
You and I have to repay what we "borrow".

Only because the credit card agreement stipulates that the minimum payment be larger than the finance charge, so that at least some of the payment goes to principal. OK, a better analogy to what the federal government does would be an "interest-only" mortgage. The federal government does faithfully pay the *interest* on the debt every year, paying none of the principal, just like an interest-only mortgage.

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Federal deficit spending is unrestrained, and won't be repaid by the people running up the debt. That is a VERY BIG difference. I hope you do not have any children or grandchildren, because THEY are the ones that will be footing the bill for GW's personal war.
In short, my original observation stands. Ending the Iraq war will not free up funds for the space program, because there are no funds to free up. It's all debt financed.

By no means am I saying that excessive deficit spending is a good thing. (I don't think interest-only mortgages are a good thing either - you wind up with no house to leave your offspring. But I don't live in an area with expensive real estate, so who am I to judge?) Nor am I disputing your point that ending the war will not free up funds for space. What I am disputing is your assertion that the federal debt is raised in ways that would be illegal for an individual debtor. It has absolutely nothing to do with legal/illegal and everything to do with the nature of the agreement between the creditor and the debtor. Debtors with better credit ratings get better lending terms than those who do not, and the US government has an impeccable credit rating because it always pays its interest, in full and on time. If you don't like it, you can always simply refuse to buy government bonds - they are the main instrument of the public debt. But I suspect you won't, because (for the reasons I cited above), they are among the safest investments you can make.
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JRF
JRF

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