Author Topic: Upgrading rocket materials  (Read 31418 times)

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #60 on: 06/15/2016 08:16 pm »
Meh. Once they get flight rates up, I'd imagine they'd get sick of making new ones and/or re-applying protective paint.

I'd going with titanium long-term. But we're not there, yet.
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #61 on: 06/15/2016 10:15 pm »
During the webcast today, one of the SpaceX presenters who works on the grid fins manufacturing, stated that they are made of aluminum.
In that case it would seem pretty impressive they survived as well as they did.

So the expensive upgrade material of choice would be what, stainless steel?
Not even close.

For proper cost plus contracting style performance-at-any-price specs the goto material is Beryllium

Half the mass, operating temperature up to 600c+ and only 400x more expensive than Aluminum.  :)

You'd be a fool to use anything else.  ;)
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #62 on: 06/15/2016 11:12 pm »
For proper cost plus contracting style performance-at-any-price specs the goto material is Beryllium

Half the mass, operating temperature up to 600c+ and only 400x more expensive than Aluminum.  :)

You'd be a fool to use anything else.  ;)

Sounds like Sucker Bait! :)

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #63 on: 06/16/2016 12:32 am »
For proper cost plus contracting style performance-at-any-price specs the goto material is Beryllium

Half the mass, operating temperature up to 600c+ and only 400x more expensive than Aluminum.  :)

You'd be a fool to use anything else.  ;)

Sounds like Sucker Bait! :)
Well it and its oxide are both highly toxic and it is brittle. You can't press it safely without heating the tools to 1350F and machining cuts must be very light otherwise you rip the surface layer off the metal. It's also highly abrasive and able to wear down even carbide tools quite quickly.

But it's amazingly stiff, very light and has a very high melting point. It can also be highly polished, making an excellent material for moving mirrors in  electroptic systems. It's the moderator of choice for space nuclear as well. Lockheed reckoned their Aluminum Be alloy was the key to making viable spaceplanes 

An excellent material in many ways apart from it's cost, brittleness and ability to kill people in various horrible ways. Needless to say the F35 has 10s of Kg of this stuff in various systems.
« Last Edit: 06/16/2016 12:34 am by john smith 19 »
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #64 on: 06/16/2016 12:50 am »
Quote
An excellent material in many ways apart from it's cost, brittleness and ability to kill people in various horrible ways.

For a while back in the '80's, the Air Force was looking at using beryllium powder instead of aluminum powder as a way to up the Isp of solid propellants being developed for the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) program, aka "Star Wars." But the toxicity of beryllium oxide in the propellant exhaust made it a pretty bad idea that was fortunately never implemented.

Offline llanitedave

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #65 on: 06/16/2016 01:21 am »
Quote
An excellent material in many ways apart from it's cost, brittleness and ability to kill people in various horrible ways.

For a while back in the '80's, the Air Force was looking at using beryllium powder instead of aluminum powder as a way to up the Isp of solid propellants being developed for the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) program, aka "Star Wars." But the toxicity of beryllium oxide in the propellant exhaust made it a pretty bad idea that was fortunately never implemented.

A former coworker of mine has been suffering for years from beryllium disease.  Her exposure consisted of working in a building that had years before been used for machining beryllium metal.  I've seen how much she's suffered from it, and her survival is very much a day-to-day thing.  It's definitely nothing to be taken lightly.
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Offline Kabloona

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #66 on: 06/16/2016 01:34 am »
Quote
An excellent material in many ways apart from it's cost, brittleness and ability to kill people in various horrible ways.

For a while back in the '80's, the Air Force was looking at using beryllium powder instead of aluminum powder as a way to up the Isp of solid propellants being developed for the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) program, aka "Star Wars." But the toxicity of beryllium oxide in the propellant exhaust made it a pretty bad idea that was fortunately never implemented.

A former coworker of mine has been suffering for years from beryllium disease.  Her exposure consisted of working in a building that had years before been used for machining beryllium metal.  I've seen how much she's suffered from it, and her survival is very much a day-to-day thing.  It's definitely nothing to be taken lightly.

Wow, what a shame. I knew the oxide was toxic but I didn't know the raw metal was too.

Offline llanitedave

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #67 on: 06/16/2016 01:54 am »
Quote
An excellent material in many ways apart from it's cost, brittleness and ability to kill people in various horrible ways.

For a while back in the '80's, the Air Force was looking at using beryllium powder instead of aluminum powder as a way to up the Isp of solid propellants being developed for the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) program, aka "Star Wars." But the toxicity of beryllium oxide in the propellant exhaust made it a pretty bad idea that was fortunately never implemented.

A former coworker of mine has been suffering for years from beryllium disease.  Her exposure consisted of working in a building that had years before been used for machining beryllium metal.  I've seen how much she's suffered from it, and her survival is very much a day-to-day thing.  It's definitely nothing to be taken lightly.

Wow, what a shame. I knew the oxide was toxic but I didn't know the raw metal was too.

It's a nasty material.

https://www.ucsfhealth.org/conditions/chronic_beryllium_disease/
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Offline Pete

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #68 on: 06/16/2016 01:58 pm »
Wow, what a shame. I knew the oxide was toxic but I didn't know the raw metal was too.

Well, if you take a grid of the naked metal, heat it up to redhot temperatures and stick it out in a supersonic oxygen-filled airstream, you are likely to get quite a bit of oxide..

Besides, isn't the metal a bit on the weak side?

Offline Kabloona

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #69 on: 06/16/2016 04:05 pm »
Wow, what a shame. I knew the oxide was toxic but I didn't know the raw metal was too.

Well, if you take a grid of the naked metal, heat it up to redhot temperatures and stick it out in a supersonic oxygen-filled airstream, you are likely to get quite a bit of oxide..

Besides, isn't the metal a bit on the weak side?

John smith 19 wasn't really serious about using beryllium anyway. Let's get back to reality...

Titanium is the logical upgrade choice as Robotbeat says, if they choose to go that route. IMO it comes down to a cost tradeoff, expensive but almost infinitely reusable titanium, vs cheaper but finitely reusable aluminum.

SpaceX has shown their focus on cost optimization rather than performance optimization, so life-cycle cost will probably be their discriminator.
« Last Edit: 06/16/2016 04:32 pm by Kabloona »

Offline mvpel

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #70 on: 06/16/2016 05:43 pm »
Half the mass, operating temperature up to 600c+ and only 400x more expensive than Aluminum.  :)

I'm probably not allowed to tell you how much the beryllium mirror in the Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle's telescope costs.  :-X Suffice it to say - "a lot."



I wonder how much thickness you could shave from the current grid fin design by rendering it in titanium, while keeping the same control authority.

Titanium aluminide is being used in jet engines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_aluminide
« Last Edit: 06/16/2016 05:53 pm by mvpel »
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Offline Kabloona

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #71 on: 06/16/2016 06:08 pm »
Quote
I'm probably not allowed to tell you how much the beryllium mirror in the Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle's telescope costs.

Or how many people got poisoned building it. Hopefully none.  :-\
« Last Edit: 06/16/2016 06:09 pm by Kabloona »

Offline Herb Schaltegger

Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #72 on: 06/16/2016 06:29 pm »
Quote
I'm probably not allowed to tell you how much the beryllium mirror in the Exoatmospheric Kill Vehicle's telescope costs.

Or how many people got poisoned building it. Hopefully none.  :-\
Probably not nearly as many as Cold War workers in nuclear weapons industry facilities around the world from the 40's on.
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #73 on: 06/16/2016 10:24 pm »
John smith 19 wasn't really serious about using beryllium anyway. Let's get back to reality...
Well spotted.  :)
Quote
Titanium is the logical upgrade choice as Robotbeat says, if they choose to go that route. IMO it comes down to a cost tradeoff, expensive but almost infinitely reusable titanium, vs cheaper but finitely reusable aluminum.
The shape those grid fins were in suggests they are far from infinitely reusable. Titanium offers diffusion bonding as a fairly simple mfg option, due to its oxide being soluable in the metal in a way Alumina is not.
Quote
SpaceX has shown their focus on cost optimization rather than performance optimization, so life-cycle cost will probably be their discriminator.
Yes. Relatively cheap fins that need regular replacement Vs one time build fins.

Note, it's not the mfg or material costs it's the increasing number of staff in the refurb team to do this.
« Last Edit: 06/16/2016 10:24 pm by john smith 19 »
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Offline Kabloona

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #74 on: 06/16/2016 11:38 pm »
Quote
The shape those grid fins were in suggests they are far from infinitely reusable.

I said only *finitely* reusable for aluminum.

I'm assuming titanium would be more or less *in*finitely reusable.  I'm not a metallurgist, but if SPAM-coated aluminum is coming back with only a cell wall or two melted, seems to me that titanium with a melting point around 2000 F higher than that of aerospace-grade aluminum alloys has a good chance of coming back intact, with essentially infinite reuse.

But I am willing to be proven wrong as soon as they start using titanium grid fins and find they last only 100 flights.  ;)
« Last Edit: 06/17/2016 12:27 am by Kabloona »

Offline mvpel

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #75 on: 06/20/2016 03:03 pm »
Here's an interesting paper:

Grid Pattern Effects on Aerodynamic Characterteristics of Grid Fins
Quote
The results of the wind tunnel test indicate that the aerodynamic characteristics of grid fin depend much more on the area of each and total grid cell than that of lifting surface. In other words, the triangle pattern could be better choice for the grid fin because of higher structural strength compared to a square and a hexagonal pattern. That makes it possible to have a thinner web, which reduces the drag of the grid fin.

The interesting thing about the Falcon 9 as opposed to usual grid fin applications is that rather than reducing the drag, increasing the drag of the fins is beneficial since every ounce of drag they exert is that much less propellant needed for landing.

The web page for Knight Strip Metals got me thinking about hexagonal-cell grid fins. It would undoubtedly change the lift characteristics of the fins, however, and I'm not sure how much that comes into play during the descent.

But when you consider how much less dense aluminum is than titanium, it seems like it'd be very difficult to close the case for titanium.
« Last Edit: 06/20/2016 03:23 pm by mvpel »
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." - Eric S. Raymond

Offline cambrianera

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #76 on: 06/20/2016 06:40 pm »
But when you consider how much less dense aluminum is than titanium, it seems like it'd be very difficult to close the case for titanium.

Titanium is 66% heavier than aluminium (per unit volume) but has higher yield strength and 66% higher young modulus.
This means thinner sections and same mass, with better resistance to temperatures over 120-140 C°.
That's why Kelly Johnson used it for the SR-71.
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #77 on: 06/21/2016 10:12 pm »
Titanium is 66% heavier than aluminium (per unit volume) but has higher yield strength and 66% higher young modulus.
This means thinner sections and same mass, with better resistance to temperatures over 120-140 C°.
That's why Kelly Johnson used it for the SR-71.
Indeed.

As always this stuff is a tradeoff.  Aluminum looked viable. They tried a design but it does not seem to be able to survive more than a single flight. Obviously that gives 2 options. Improve the grid design or change materials. A material change is the simple option but being able to do it in Aluminum retains it's good machining characteristics.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline mvpel

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Re: Upgrading rocket materials
« Reply #78 on: 06/23/2016 05:14 pm »
Or how many people got poisoned building it. Hopefully none.  :-\

I'm sure that a not-insubstantial portion of the cost comes from building and maintaining the systems and processes for assuring that absolutely no one got poisoned building it.
"Ugly programs are like ugly suspension bridges: they're much more liable to collapse than pretty ones, because the way humans (especially engineer-humans) perceive beauty is intimately related to our ability to process and understand complexity. A language that makes it hard to write elegant code makes it hard to write good code." - Eric S. Raymond

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