Author Topic: The Air Force has big plans for starship  (Read 123387 times)

Offline RON_P

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« Last Edit: 06/10/2021 01:38 am by Lar »

Offline neoforce

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #1 on: 05/29/2021 12:35 pm »
If I’m reading this right…. Page 301 is the section titled “3600: Research, Development, Test & Evaluation, Air Force / BA 3: Advanced Technology Development (ATD)” with a total FY 2022 budget of $132M

The specific info on page 305 includes  FY2021 $9.7M and FY2022 $47.9M and says;

Title: Rocket Cargo
Description: The Department of the Air Force seeks to leverage the current multi-billion dollar commercial investment to develop the largest rockets ever, and with full reusability to develop and test the capability to leverage a commercial rocket to deliver AF cargo anywhere on the Earth in less than one hour, with a 100-ton capacity. The Air Force is not investing in the commercial rocket development, but rather investing in the Science & Technology needed to interface the capability with DoD logistics needs, and extend the commercial capability to DoD-unique missions. Provides a new, faster and cheaper solution to the existing TRANSCOM Strategic Airlift mission. Enables AFSOC to perform current Rapid-Response Missions at lower cost, and meet a one-hour response requirement. Rocket Cargo uses modeling, simulation, and analysis to conduct operational analysis, verify military utility, performance, and operational cost. S&T will include novel "loadmaster" designs to quickly load/unload a rocket, rapid launch capabilities from unusual sites, characterization of potential landing surfaces and approaches to rapidly improve those surfaces, adversary detectability, new novel trajectories, and an S&T investigation of the potential ability to air drop a payload after reentry. This is not a rocket engine or launch vehicle development program. It is an S&T effort to leverage the commercial development into a novel new DoD capability.

FY 2021 Plans:
Utilize modeling, simulation, and analysis to conduct operational analysis of Rocket Cargo concepts, trajectories, and design considerations and verify military utility, performance, and operational cost. Gather operational data from on-going commercial large-scale, instrumented, reusable launch events.

FY 2022 Plans:
Mature effort in leveraging commercial space launch to create military capability in Rocket-based Cargo delivery. Complete S&T testing leveraging the current commercial prototype testing. Perform site measurements needed to integrate the capability onto DoD missions including plume-surface physics and toxicity, loads, detectability, and acoustics. Also, complete initial AFRL wind tunnel testing to assess novel trajectories needed for air-drop capability, and high-speed separation physics. Under contract and CRADA, partner with Commercial to test and demonstrate an initial one-way transport capability to an austere site. Seek to perform an early end-to-end test to fully identify the technical challenges. In addition, complete Industry outreach for loadmaster concepts including novel container designs, load/unload concepts, and testing the compatibility of AF cargo with rocket launch and space environments. Issue solicitation and award contracts.

FY 2021 to FY 2022 Increase/Decrease Statement:
FY 2022 increased compared to FY 2021 by $38.169 million. Funding increased due to planned program requirements and the development and maturation activities described above.

Offline VaBlue

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #2 on: 05/29/2021 12:49 pm »
Quote
"Under contract and CRADA, partner with Commercial to test and demonstrate an initial one-way transport capability to an austere site."

So it looks like we could see a point-to-point test flight sometime next year.  Seems like the rocket factory is getting a healthy backlog between this, 'normal' prototype/test article production, and HLS work.  I suspect some of the loadmaster work will also parlay to HLS, because a common loading method will be a time and cost saver.  The Joint Duty military guys just added a new task between NASA and AF!

Offline novo2044

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #3 on: 05/29/2021 12:56 pm »
It was only a matter of time.  While the US military has the ability to respond almost anywhere in on the globe in <24 hours, 1-2 hours has some obvious utility.  Assuming they are willing to expend the 2nd stage, burning 50 million to drop 100tons anywhere on Earth is attractive.  But I've been pondering what sort of profiles would allow them to either land at a friendly base or at least glide far enough to land 100/500/1000km beyond the LZ to avoid the SS from landing in enemy/contested territory.  Could SS release 50 tons of armed drones at a safe altitude and still return to a friendly landing pad?  In a disaster situation how many MREs/day could SpaceX deliver in fully reusable mode?

Or, if you want to get real fancy, how feasible would prepositioned assets in orbit be?  If not constantly then perhaps when a regional conflict flares up the Space Force spends a week or two putting assets in orbit ready to deorbit burn.  Maybe the first military space stations will be zero boil off tankage and tons of boring fuel and ammo instead of space lasers.

And as silly as it is I'm also waiting for the first marines to pop out of orbital drop pods.  There'd be no shortage of volunteers.
« Last Edit: 05/29/2021 12:58 pm by novo2044 »

Offline volker2020

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #4 on: 05/29/2021 01:57 pm »
Looking at modern military history, I find at least 3 instances without digging, where dropping 100t of supplies or reinforcements within 2h would have made the difference between a defeat and victory. Guess, the US air force does see it the same way. While I am no big fan, of combining space flight with the military, it clearly means they might have the chance to dip into some deep pockets for the development.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #5 on: 05/29/2021 02:00 pm »
It does require owning the skies, though, and the immediate surrounding couple miles. Otherwise would be pretty vulnerable.

But it lands pretty fast and I think the vertical skydiving capability helps versus a long glide.
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Offline Legios

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #6 on: 05/29/2021 02:05 pm »
100 tons of cargo may or not be useful.  I would think loading a starship and getting one to fly would take longer than loading up a few C-17s.  In the short term at least.

However, there are two things the military / intelligence community is salivating over:

1.  Huge fairing size.  Paradigm shift in new capabilities
2.  Operational Responsive Space.  Ability to replace satellites and launch into new orbits on demand

The only problem is that it spacecraft design / build takes a long time...and is expensive.  It is hard to justify spending billions on a new spacecraft that relies on a launcher that may not ever arrive.  So, it is going to be a few years after Starship is operational before we start seeing payloads that fully maximize its potential.

Offline Ludus

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #7 on: 05/29/2021 02:14 pm »
It was only a matter of time.  While the US military has the ability to respond almost anywhere in on the globe in <24 hours, 1-2 hours has some obvious utility.  Assuming they are willing to expend the 2nd stage, burning 50 million to drop 100tons anywhere on Earth is attractive.  But I've been pondering what sort of profiles would allow them to either land at a friendly base or at least glide far enough to land 100/500/1000km beyond the LZ to avoid the SS from landing in enemy/contested territory.  Could SS release 50 tons of armed drones at a safe altitude and still return to a friendly landing pad?  In a disaster situation how many MREs/day could SpaceX deliver in fully reusable mode?

Or, if you want to get real fancy, how feasible would prepositioned assets in orbit be?  If not constantly then perhaps when a regional conflict flares up the Space Force spends a week or two putting assets in orbit ready to deorbit burn.  Maybe the first military space stations will be zero boil off tankage and tons of boring fuel and ammo instead of space lasers.

And as silly as it is I'm also waiting for the first marines to pop out of orbital drop pods.  There'd be no shortage of volunteers.

I suspect the SpaceLasers will find an important use case here as a defense system on military Starships. Any missile attempting to take out Starships in orbit would be quite vulnerable outside the atmosphere.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #8 on: 05/29/2021 02:37 pm »
The thing about Starship, tho, is it is designed to operate from a mobile platform, and SpaceX is hoping to have fast-fueling capability as well.

Starship point to point cargo is something SpaceX intends to develop anyway.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline AC in NC

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #9 on: 05/29/2021 03:46 pm »
It would be interesting to model what options a SS might have in shorter-range use cases rather than long-haul expendable.  Obviously after SS is more ubiquitous such that the military could establish distributed launch facilities.

Say either full or partial load of props, short-hop into an area, unload, and hop back or hop back at least somewhere that recovery is more reasonable.

Not sure if the numbers would line up (having to expend extra landing props to land your hop-back props) but would be interesting.
« Last Edit: 05/29/2021 05:11 pm by AC in NC »

Offline sferrin

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #10 on: 05/29/2021 03:57 pm »
It was only a matter of time.  While the US military has the ability to respond almost anywhere in on the globe in <24 hours, 1-2 hours has some obvious utility.  Assuming they are willing to expend the 2nd stage, burning 50 million to drop 100tons anywhere on Earth is attractive.  But I've been pondering what sort of profiles would allow them to either land at a friendly base or at least glide far enough to land 100/500/1000km beyond the LZ to avoid the SS from landing in enemy/contested territory.  Could SS release 50 tons of armed drones at a safe altitude and still return to a friendly landing pad?  In a disaster situation how many MREs/day could SpaceX deliver in fully reusable mode?

Or, if you want to get real fancy, how feasible would prepositioned assets in orbit be?  If not constantly then perhaps when a regional conflict flares up the Space Force spends a week or two putting assets in orbit ready to deorbit burn.  Maybe the first military space stations will be zero boil off tankage and tons of boring fuel and ammo instead of space lasers.

And as silly as it is I'm also waiting for the first marines to pop out of orbital drop pods.  There'd be no shortage of volunteers.
It's not even a new idea.

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Offline steveleach

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #11 on: 05/29/2021 04:12 pm »
It was only a matter of time.  While the US military has the ability to respond almost anywhere in on the globe in <24 hours, 1-2 hours has some obvious utility.  Assuming they are willing to expend the 2nd stage, burning 50 million to drop 100tons anywhere on Earth is attractive.  But I've been pondering what sort of profiles would allow them to either land at a friendly base or at least glide far enough to land 100/500/1000km beyond the LZ to avoid the SS from landing in enemy/contested territory.  Could SS release 50 tons of armed drones at a safe altitude and still return to a friendly landing pad?  In a disaster situation how many MREs/day could SpaceX deliver in fully reusable mode?

Or, if you want to get real fancy, how feasible would prepositioned assets in orbit be?  If not constantly then perhaps when a regional conflict flares up the Space Force spends a week or two putting assets in orbit ready to deorbit burn.  Maybe the first military space stations will be zero boil off tankage and tons of boring fuel and ammo instead of space lasers.

And as silly as it is I'm also waiting for the first marines to pop out of orbital drop pods.  There'd be no shortage of volunteers.
It's not even a new idea.
I wonder whether they are also speaking to Gravity Industries.

https://gravity.co/

Offline RAN

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #12 on: 05/29/2021 04:44 pm »
Quote
Provides a new, faster and cheaper solution to the existing TRANSCOM Strategic Airlift mission

Is it safe to say the Air Force is planning for Starship to deliver materiel, weaponry, or personnel but NOT as a missile with 100 ton payload? Would we ever get indication if the latter was also planned?

Offline docmordrid

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #13 on: 05/29/2021 04:44 pm »
ISTM, for those ejectable pods to carry significant cargo it's either numerous small payloads w/GPS chutes (JPADS) or some scale of Drop Ship (for vehicles etc.)
« Last Edit: 05/29/2021 04:49 pm by docmordrid »
DM

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #14 on: 05/29/2021 04:48 pm »
Quote
Provides a new, faster and cheaper solution to the existing TRANSCOM Strategic Airlift mission

Is it safe to say the Air Force is planning for Starship to deliver materiel, weaponry, or personnel but NOT as a missile with 100 ton payload? Would we ever get indication if the latter was also planned?
Correct. And as far as delivering munitions, you wouldn't want Starship as it's not very survivable or maneuverable. The Air Force has been studying hypersonic maneuverable munitions, and they're nothing like Starship.

Of course, I expect the press to pick this up and say that Starship is a bomber because, naturally, much of the press will sensationalize anything.
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Online catdlr

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #15 on: 05/29/2021 04:54 pm »
It was only a matter of time.  While the US military has the ability to respond almost anywhere in on the globe in <24 hours, 1-2 hours has some obvious utility.  Assuming they are willing to expend the 2nd stage, burning 50 million to drop 100tons anywhere on Earth is attractive.  But I've been pondering what sort of profiles would allow them to either land at a friendly base or at least glide far enough to land 100/500/1000km beyond the LZ to avoid the SS from landing in enemy/contested territory.  Could SS release 50 tons of armed drones at a safe altitude and still return to a friendly landing pad?  In a disaster situation how many MREs/day could SpaceX deliver in fully reusable mode?

Or, if you want to get real fancy, how feasible would prepositioned assets in orbit be?  If not constantly then perhaps when a regional conflict flares up the Space Force spends a week or two putting assets in orbit ready to deorbit burn.  Maybe the first military space stations will be zero boil off tankage and tons of boring fuel and ammo instead of space lasers.

And as silly as it is I'm also waiting for the first marines to pop out of orbital drop pods.  There'd be no shortage of volunteers.
It's not even a new idea.




Army Mandalorians and long ramps!!!, wow other concepts that George Lucus stole. :-)
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Offline RAN

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #16 on: 05/29/2021 04:56 pm »
Quote
complete initial AFRL wind tunnel testing to assess novel trajectories needed for air-drop capability, and high-speed separation physics

I imagine chomper would do poorly opening at speed in the atmosphere  ???
« Last Edit: 05/29/2021 04:57 pm by RAN »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #17 on: 05/29/2021 04:58 pm »
Quote
complete initial AFRL wind tunnel testing to assess novel trajectories needed for air-drop capability, and high-speed separation physics

I cannot imagine chomper would do well opening at speed in the atmosphere  ???
They could in principle come to a hover 10km high, eject the chomper fairing, fall and deploy a drogue.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Oli

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #18 on: 05/29/2021 05:05 pm »
It was only a matter of time.  While the US military has the ability to respond almost anywhere in on the globe in <24 hours, 1-2 hours has some obvious utility.

Has it though? I mean maybe if you could land in enemy territory or on the front at least, but that's not really an option.


Offline Robotbeat

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Re: The Air Force has big plans for starship
« Reply #19 on: 05/29/2021 06:02 pm »
Read the thread. This is for one-way and they also discuss airdropping from Starship.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

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