Author Topic: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?  (Read 37836 times)

Offline xraydeltaone

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Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« on: 09/02/2015 07:02 am »
Hello, long time since I've posted here. Had a question that's been in my mind for a while, and after reading the autobiographies of Cernan, Stafford, and Young, I found it curious that LM-4's ascent stage is the only one remaining intact from the Apollo program. Does anyone know why Snoopy's ascent stage was cast adrift after its mission was completed to make its own orbit around the sun, instead of being purposely impacted on the surface, as was apparently done with all of the other Apollo lunar modules (save Spider and Aquarius, which burned up in Earth's atmosphere)?

Did the group of British astronomers have any success in tracking down Snoopy somewhere in heliocentric orbit? As it is the only manned U.S. spacecraft not currently in a museum, I think that sometime in the next 100 years, it would be a finding of great historical value!

Makes me wonder, didn't anyone at NASA think that doing the same with LM-5 for posterity's sake would have made more sense than slamming Eagle into the lunar surface to obtain some seismic reading that few would ever care for?

Oh, and if anyone here has ever met and spoken with Stafford or Cernan, will those who will one day recover Snoopy find anything unusual when they open the cockpit?

Offline Archibald

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Offline MattMason

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #2 on: 09/03/2015 12:27 pm »
Reviewing those older threads can help, although little has been discussed about Snoopy since 2013.

I did make some digging around the venerable Astronautix web site, which has summaries of many NASA internal memos, reports and what-not as LM development continued to the first landing and beyond. One tidbit fills in a part of the total answer why Snoopy was sent roving around the sun but later LMs were left to casually decay out of lunar orbit.

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/apollolm.htm

Quote
1969 June 9-13 - . LV Family: Saturn V. Launch Vehicle: Saturn V.
Studies of impact of empty Apollo stages on the lunar surface - . Nation: USA. Program: Apollo. Flight: Apollo 11; Apollo 12. Spacecraft: Apollo LM. Studies were being conducted to determine the feasibility of intentionally impacting an S-IVB stage and an empty LM stage on the lunar surface after jettison, to gather geological data and enhance the scientific return of the seismology experiment. Data would be obtained with the ALSEP seismographic equipment placed on the lunar surface during the Apollo 11 or Apollo 12 flight. MSFC and Bellcomm were examining the possibility of the S-IVB jettison; MSC, the LM ascent stage jettison. Intentional impacting of the ascent stage for Apollo 11 was later determined not to be desirable.
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Offline NovaSilisko

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Offline xraydeltaone

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #4 on: 09/03/2015 02:03 pm »
The memo is very vague, and on closer exam, Apollo XI just cast off Eagle so that it would decay in lunar orbit and crash unceremoniously onto the surface. Not even a targeted impact. It just seems like such a terrible oversight in mission planning. It would be just as easy for the crew to have jettisoned LM-5 away from the Moon so that it might one day be found intact for posterity's sake. I guess it's just one of those things they didn't think about. Kinda like not mounting a chest camera on Aldrin so that the world would actually get good pictures of the First Man To Walk On The Moon actually WALKING ON THE MOON?!

Offline MattMason

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #5 on: 09/03/2015 02:04 pm »
a little search using "snoopy" give some threads 
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=22121.msg611532#msg611532
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32919.msg1100201#msg1100201
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=14215.msg1170935#msg1170935

I never did get any info on what exactly I found in my thread there...

And, likely, since the 2011 search was a privately operated one, we may not, if ever, have an answer for you.

I think your best answer about Snoopy's trip into solar orbit was a matter of NASA not wanting to leave any more trash on the lunar surface as they could, as well as a test of their limited remote control abilities of an unmanned LM using the AGC. With the ALSEP seismological experiments, the S-IVBs were often rammed into the moon to help their studies, but it seems to me that a certain reverence appeared when discarding the LM ascent stages.

One thing to note was that Snoopy didn't have to make a complete burn back to Charlie Brown as other LMs would make from the lunar surface. While this ascent stage was deliberately under-fueled to discourage any funny ideas by the astronauts to land, there was more fuel left in Snoopy to make a heliocentric injection than any of the other LMs that landed and returned, their ascent stage tanks nearly empty (and logically, as weight was a prime consideration). Spider (Apollo 9) could not have left Earth orbit, I believe, as its ascent engine probably couldn't make enough delta-V to reach escape velocity. Snoopy was unique because of its fuel reserve in all likelihood.

Space is a big place, and a LM ascent stage is comparatively small. Comments in those threads suggest several likely insurmountable problems with finding Snoopy:

* Other gravitational bodies perturbed the initial vector into heliocentric orbit, causing Snoopy to go into a random course.
* Mechanical and aging issues, particularly micrometeoroid strikes and heating, would have likely caused Snoopy's crew cabin to vent to space, causing additional course changes. In the worst case, the remaining traces of the spacecraft's hypergolic fuels or tanks of oxygen could have ruptured, severely damaging or even destroying the spacecraft.
* The complete lack of tracking of the ascent stage left very, very little information for anyone to begin a search. 45 years was a long time to wait before a search began.

Effectively, it seems no one cared about Snoopy after it was sent away.
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Offline MattMason

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #6 on: 09/03/2015 02:09 pm »
The memo is very vague, and on closer exam, Apollo XI just cast off Eagle so that it would decay in lunar orbit and crash unceremoniously onto the surface. Not even a targeted impact. It just seems like such a terrible oversight in mission planning. It would be just as easy for the crew to have jettisoned LM-5 away from the Moon so that it might one day be found intact for posterity's sake. I guess it's just one of those things they didn't think about. Kinda like not mounting a chest camera on Aldrin so that the world would actually get good pictures of the First Man To Walk On The Moon actually WALKING ON THE MOON?!

Funny that you mentioned that. Someone else realized that no cameras were initially designated to photograph the astronauts, given the historic nature. That someone was Max Faget, the key engineer in the manned spacecraft designs of the time.

Same source as above:
Quote
1969 February 27 - .
Apollo Preliminary Lunar Landing Phase Photographic Operations Plan seriously deficient - . Nation: USA. Related Persons: Faget. Program: Apollo. Spacecraft: Apollo LM. Maxime A. Faget, MSC Director of Engineering and Development, said he believed the Preliminary Lunar Landing Phase Photographic Operations Plan was seriously deficient in meeting its stated objectives. "From the standpoint of public information and historical documentation, I'm terribly disappointed to find that although 560 feet (170 meters) of movie film has been set aside for lunar surface use none will be exposed with the intent of providing first-class visual appreciation of the astronaut's activity on the moon during this singularly historical event. Everyone's impression of this occasion will be marred and distorted by the fact that the greatest frame rate is 12 frames per second. One can argue that 'suitable' (although jerky) motion rendition is produced by 'double-framing.' Nevertheless, it is almost unbelievable that the culmination of a 20 billion dollar program is to be recorded in such a stingy manner and the low-quality public information and historical material is in keeping with an otherwise high-quality program." Faget also noted he felt that, from a historical standpoint, both the lunar module pilot and the commander should be photographed with the Hasselblad camera while on the surface.
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Offline Phil Stooke

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #7 on: 09/03/2015 02:41 pm »
The Apollo 8-10-11-12 missions were spaced close together.  Leaving the ascent stage in orbit, waiting for a natural decay, would probably have resulted in two LMs in similar orbits during the first landing, a potential hazard.  So that option seems undesirable.  The two remaining options, impact on the surface or heliocentric orbit, both require a successful burn.  Late ascent stages were crashed to make a seismic signal (Apollo 16 excepted as they lost control of it), but with no seismometer on the Moon at the time this didn't make sense for Snoopy.  As a cartographer I always want to see another point on the map, so that's less desirable from my point of view, but I guess the mission managers were not cartographers.

Offline NovaSilisko

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #8 on: 09/03/2015 03:05 pm »

Funny that you mentioned that. Someone else realized that no cameras were initially designated to photograph the astronauts, given the historic nature. That someone was Max Faget, the key engineer in the manned spacecraft designs of the time.

Same source as above:

Good thing his advice went through. Otherwise, we might be getting people today who don't believe it happened...  ;)

Offline Jim

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #9 on: 09/03/2015 04:10 pm »
The memo is very vague, and on closer exam, Apollo XI just cast off Eagle so that it would decay in lunar orbit and crash unceremoniously onto the surface. Not even a targeted impact. It just seems like such a terrible oversight in mission planning.  It would be just as easy for the crew to have jettisoned LM-5 away from the Moon so that it might one day be found intact for posterity's sake

What good would that do?  There were no sensors in place to for an impact.   And please describe what is "away from the moon" and how does one try to achieve that?

This is just much to do about nothing.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #10 on: 09/03/2015 06:20 pm »
The memo is very vague, and on closer exam, Apollo XI just cast off Eagle so that it would decay in lunar orbit and crash unceremoniously onto the surface. Not even a targeted impact. It just seems like such a terrible oversight in mission planning.  It would be just as easy for the crew to have jettisoned LM-5 away from the Moon so that it might one day be found intact for posterity's sake

What good would that do?  There were no sensors in place to for an impact.   And please describe what is "away from the moon" and how does one try to achieve that?

This is just much to do about nothing.

There actually was an active seismometer on the surface when LM-5 was cast away.  That corrected, I don't think anyone wanted to do anything on Apollo 11 that was not absolutely required, at least in terms of flight planning and engineering demonstrations.  Just land, pick up a few rocks, plant a couple of quick-and-easy sensor packages, and get back to the CSM.  Anything else, like firing the APS after final LM jett, just complicated things, and were left for other missions.

On Apollo 10, the final APS burn was a test of burn-to-depletion and also a test of the AGS being able to control a complex APS burn.  These were nice-to-know tests that were run prior to the first landing attempt.  They didn't need to be re-run on Apollo 11.
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Offline alk3997

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #11 on: 09/03/2015 06:45 pm »
Here's a good summary of the seismometers left by the Apollo crews.  Note that Apollo 11 used an early seismometer version and it "only" operated for three weeks.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/missions/apollo/apollo_11/experiments/pse/

Given, the upcoming flights, the imprecise knowledge of masscons (see Apollo 16 sub-satellite), a single seismometer (can't triangulate) and the overall goal of just landing for Apollo 11, it's easy to see how a precision crashing of the LM ascent stage was not a priority.  Knowing where the LM crashed was also important to the experiment.

Andy
« Last Edit: 09/03/2015 06:55 pm by alk3997 »

Offline MattMason

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #12 on: 10/26/2015 02:02 am »
Some bittersweet news on Snoopy.

It's likely been found! However, it's orbit has apparently shifted enough to was likely not quite a solar orbit but a wider orbit that crossed our orbit twice. It's likely to collide with Earth by November 13.

Here's the link to that information, the link of the latest thread that reported it and an older link on the search for the wandering Apollo 10 ascent stage.

I think it just wants to be home in time for the new Peanuts movie. :) Good boy.
« Last Edit: 10/26/2015 02:04 am by MattMason »
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Offline space1969

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #13 on: 10/26/2015 02:54 am »
I believe the recently discovered NEO Object WT1190F might be the lunar ascent stage "Snoopy" from Apollo 10. It was discovered on Oct 3rd by the Catalina Sky Survey and is predicted to impact in the Indian Ocean on Nov 13th. It is very small "only a few meters" and must be highly reflective to even be seen at all.
It has been observed twice before in 2012 and 2013. Snoopy is the only ascent stage that was not destroyed during the mission. After returning from the test flight near the lunar surface the ascent stage was un-docked and commanded to fire the main engine until fuel depletion. It was assumed to be in solar orbit but more likely was in an extended orbit around the earth/moon system. It should be relatively easy to determine for sure by the reflective characteristics but my hope is to get someone to look at it early enough to determine what it is before it impacts.

Offline NovaSilisko

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #14 on: 10/26/2015 03:26 am »
Is there any other source beyond that flickr image? All I see is the assertion that it's "likely" this object is Snoopy, but nothing beyond that?
« Last Edit: 10/26/2015 03:26 am by NovaSilisko »

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #15 on: 10/26/2015 05:29 am »
Near-Earth Object Predicted To Put On Fireball Show | Video

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Offline Brovane

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #16 on: 10/26/2015 11:17 am »
Some bittersweet news on Snoopy.

It's likely been found! However, it's orbit has apparently shifted enough to was likely not quite a solar orbit but a wider orbit that crossed our orbit twice. It's likely to collide with Earth by November 13.

Here's the link to that information, the link of the latest thread that reported it and an older link on the search for the wandering Apollo 10 ascent stage.

I think it just wants to be home in time for the new Peanuts movie. :) Good boy.

Quote
Ok, I'm having a lot of trouble today with my internet and no time to mess with it right now, so I want to stress that this is pure speculation.

Ok this is just speculation.  I cannot find anything backing up that this is actually the LM-4 Ascent stage. 
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Offline MattMason

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #17 on: 10/26/2015 12:37 pm »
Some bittersweet news on Snoopy.

It's likely been found! However, it's orbit has apparently shifted enough to was likely not quite a solar orbit but a wider orbit that crossed our orbit twice. It's likely to collide with Earth by November 13.

Here's the link to that information, the link of the latest thread that reported it and an older link on the search for the wandering Apollo 10 ascent stage.

I think it just wants to be home in time for the new Peanuts movie. :) Good boy.

Quote
Ok, I'm having a lot of trouble today with my internet and no time to mess with it right now, so I want to stress that this is pure speculation.

Ok this is just speculation.  I cannot find anything backing up that this is actually the LM-4 Ascent stage.

I'm making the the error of presumption here, myself, so I believe your skepticism is well founded.

How can we know from radar tracking alone in differentiating this as a man-made object or space rock?
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #18 on: 10/26/2015 01:21 pm »
Sound's like a mission for SLS! OR if they can't get it off the pad in time, Jacque Cousteau.

The spectral curves should tell much, how it breaks up should tell us more...
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Offline Prober

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Re: Apollo X Lunar Module Snoopy - Where Are You?
« Reply #19 on: 10/26/2015 01:22 pm »
So a few articles have popped up....

http://www.sciencealert.com/a-hunk-of-space-junk-is-expected-to-impact-earth-in-november

"It could be a spent rocket stage or paneling shed by a recent Moon mission," says Watson. "It is also possible that the debris dates back decades, perhaps even to the Apollo era. An object seen orbiting the Earth in 2002 was eventually determined to be a discarded segment of the Saturn V rocket that launched the first men to land on the Moon."

So I thought it would be an interesting topic, maybe even a fun poll.

Could it be an old Apollo era (USA)
                     old Soviet
                     Chinese (recent)

Did I miss anyone?   
Will we know where it came from & do we have the assets to know?  It's an interesting story..

2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant..." --Isoroku Yamamoto

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