Author Topic: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft  (Read 84399 times)

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #160 on: 07/19/2016 07:31 pm »

Offline Star One

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #161 on: 07/19/2016 07:34 pm »
Thanks for those. I've often wondered if we would be better off as far human exploration is concerned visiting the Martian moons rather than Mars itself.

Offline redliox

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #162 on: 07/19/2016 09:54 pm »
A lot to take in!

I see exploring Stickney Crater is prominent in the surface activity for human exploration.  I am surprised the Phobos Monolith wasn't mentioned, although I'm sure it'd end up being investigated.  They seem to be more conservative about moving the Phobos Habitat as well.  I wonder about the logistics of the PEV and 'MAV-taxi' as they call it largely here; I hate the thought of wasting a useful vehicle like the PEV.  It is good they're still trying to apply the PEV to a Mars rover and make most of the systems universally adaptive to Mars.  I'd like to see this happen although it may still be tricky to sell in a budget-conscience environment.

It's encouraging to see ESA and JAXA are taking the robotic missions seriously.  If the Phootprint (or whatever it is named) takes off, it looks like it would haul back ten times as much as MME would (of course both are still in grams).  I didn't see much specified for surface instrumentation but, then again, these would be samples returned to a dedicated lab on Earth.
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Offline redliox

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #163 on: 07/19/2016 10:01 pm »
Thanks for those. I've often wondered if we would be better off as far human exploration is concerned visiting the Martian moons rather than Mars itself.

Err...not per say.  They could be easily bypassed, but if you're in orbit they're worth the visit.  I think they should be visited but if you want a sustainable effort, Mars' resources (and science) are of greater importance.  I hope any substantial Phobos-specific equipment, like the PEV or Phobos Habitat, can find use even when things switch dominantly to Mars; at the least as a communication relay or perhaps an emergency way-station.
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #164 on: 07/19/2016 10:31 pm »
I am surprised the Phobos Monolith wasn't mentioned, although I'm sure it'd end up being investigated.

It was. I didn't get a photo of that slide. The guy showed a LOT of slides and it was difficult to keep up.

It was a very interesting presentation. I was impressed with the work they've done, and I've been around the block enough times to know that a lot of talk about sending humans to Mars is just blowing smoke.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #165 on: 07/19/2016 10:33 pm »
It's encouraging to see ESA and JAXA are taking the robotic missions seriously.  If the Phootprint (or whatever it is named) takes off, it looks like it would haul back ten times as much as MME would (of course both are still in grams).  I didn't see much specified for surface instrumentation but, then again, these would be samples returned to a dedicated lab on Earth.

The ESA mission was referred to as a 1 billion Euro mission, or about $1.3 billion US dollars. The JAXA mission, I think, was referred to as a $330 million mission. Considering that they do the same thing, I'm skeptical of the JAXA costs. That said, different countries do their accounting differently, so I always caution about making comparisons like this.

Offline redliox

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #166 on: 07/20/2016 11:07 am »
I am surprised the Phobos Monolith wasn't mentioned, although I'm sure it'd end up being investigated.

It was. I didn't get a photo of that slide. The guy showed a LOT of slides and it was difficult to keep up.

It was a very interesting presentation. I was impressed with the work they've done, and I've been around the block enough times to know that a lot of talk about sending humans to Mars is just blowing smoke.

I don't suppose there are any theories about the Phobos Monolith?  And I mean the serious ones not alien quack cracks.
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Offline Star One

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #167 on: 07/20/2016 11:10 am »
I am surprised the Phobos Monolith wasn't mentioned, although I'm sure it'd end up being investigated.

It was. I didn't get a photo of that slide. The guy showed a LOT of slides and it was difficult to keep up.

It was a very interesting presentation. I was impressed with the work they've done, and I've been around the block enough times to know that a lot of talk about sending humans to Mars is just blowing smoke.

I don't suppose there are any theories about the Phobos Monolith?  And I mean the serious ones not alien quack cracks.


Not the best of sources but gives an outline of the matter.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1204254/Has-mystery-Mars-Monolith-solved.html

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #168 on: 07/20/2016 11:15 am »
Any chance we can see the above presentations as pdfs sometime, somewhere?
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #169 on: 07/20/2016 01:17 pm »
I wonder if anyone has ever thought of a sort of 'spider walker' rover, using end effectors to ensure that it maintains a solid grip on the surface? After all, the gravitational environment of the Martian moons is such that, should it hit a slope at speed, the vehicle could launch itself into orbit or even through escape velocity!
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Offline Alpha_Centauri

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #170 on: 07/20/2016 02:35 pm »
It's encouraging to see ESA and JAXA are taking the robotic missions seriously.  If the Phootprint (or whatever it is named) takes off, it looks like it would haul back ten times as much as MME would (of course both are still in grams).  I didn't see much specified for surface instrumentation but, then again, these would be samples returned to a dedicated lab on Earth.

The ESA mission was referred to as a 1 billion Euro mission, or about $1.3 billion US dollars. The JAXA mission, I think, was referred to as a $330 million mission. Considering that they do the same thing, I'm skeptical of the JAXA costs. That said, different countries do their accounting differently, so I always caution about making comparisons like this.

Thanks, did they mention about the time scale of the ESA mission? I can see the presentations give the previously assumed launch dates but I've seen it mentioned they had delayed putting the mission forward for funding for a few years because of Exomars.
« Last Edit: 07/20/2016 02:40 pm by Alpha_Centauri »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #171 on: 07/20/2016 02:37 pm »
It's encouraging to see ESA and JAXA are taking the robotic missions seriously.  If the Phootprint (or whatever it is named) takes off, it looks like it would haul back ten times as much as MME would (of course both are still in grams).  I didn't see much specified for surface instrumentation but, then again, these would be samples returned to a dedicated lab on Earth.

The ESA mission was referred to as a 1 billion Euro mission, or about $1.3 billion US dollars. The JAXA mission, I think, was referred to as a $330 million mission. Considering that they do the same thing, I'm skeptical of the JAXA costs. That said, different countries do their accounting differently, so I always caution about making comparisons like this.

Thanks, did they mention about the time scale of the ESA mission? I can see the presentations give the previously assumed launch dates but I've seen it mentioned they had delayed putting the mission forward for a few years because of Exomars.

Yeah, but I'm forgetting the details. Something like launch in 24 with sample return by 28. I think the Japanese mission is launch in 20 or 22 with return by 28, or maybe a bit earlier. I'll have to check my notes.

Offline vjkane

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #172 on: 07/20/2016 03:29 pm »
The ESA mission was referred to as a 1 billion Euro mission, or about $1.3 billion US dollars. The JAXA mission, I think, was referred to as a $330 million mission. Considering that they do the same thing, I'm skeptical of the JAXA costs. That said, different countries do their accounting differently, so I always caution about making comparisons like this.

I went to a conference a few years back where a JAXA scientist presented their roadmap with cost ranges.  JAXA focuses on small, tightly focused missions, and they appear to accept more risk in their missions -- which lowers costs -- than either NASA or ESA would.  In (I thinks it's) 12 Discovery mission, NASA has had one failure.  JAXA has had at least one mission fail completely and at least two others fail partially over a smaller number of planetary missions.  Given the budgets they have to work with, they appear to have made an informed decision.

The ESA/Russian mission appears to be more ambitious.  For example, a capable long-lived lander would be left on Phobos after the departure of the sample return craft.  More capability plus a lower tolerance for risk will result in a higher cost.

Offline Calphor

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #173 on: 07/20/2016 08:08 pm »
Any chance we can see the above presentations as pdfs sometime, somewhere?

Pascal said that they would try and have as many of the presentations as possible up on the Phobos Deimos Conference website, http://phobos-deimos.arc.nasa.gov/, some time next week.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #174 on: 07/21/2016 05:10 am »
The ESA/Russian mission appears to be more ambitious.  For example, a capable long-lived lander would be left on Phobos after the departure of the sample return craft.  More capability plus a lower tolerance for risk will result in a higher cost.

The JAXA mission is also more focused on the sample return and the only things they will include have to enhance that part of the mission (although they will image Deimos). The ESA mission is a comprehensive one.

Offline redliox

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #175 on: 07/21/2016 11:18 am »
The JAXA mission is also more focused on the sample return and the only things they will include have to enhance that part of the mission (although they will image Deimos). The ESA mission is a comprehensive one.

As far as Deimos goes, even some new imaging from a flyby helps.  Phobos is the only moon that's received decent, up-close study even in passing...at least with 21st century technology.
« Last Edit: 07/21/2016 11:20 am by redliox »
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #176 on: 07/28/2016 12:17 pm »
Videos of the presentations are now available:

http://phobos-deimos.arc.nasa.gov/on-demand/


Offline redliox

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #177 on: 07/28/2016 11:36 pm »
Quote from: Blackstar ink=topic=36977.msg1561931#msg1561931 date=1468967507
It was a very interesting presentation. I was impressed with the work they've done, and I've been around the block enough times to know that a lot of talk about sending humans to Mars is just blowing smoke.

I get that same impression too for the human presentations.  At least the 2 Phobos missions are more promising.  One thing the HSF presentations indicated was a heavy need for Martian moon probes.
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #178 on: 08/22/2016 08:11 pm »

Offline redliox

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Re: Deimos and Phobos Spacecraft
« Reply #179 on: 01/15/2017 12:58 am »
A presentation about the Jaxa Martian Moon mission: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/sbag/meetings/jan2017/presentations/Fujimoto.pdf

It appears to be tagged for this year/month.  Uncertain how far along the mission has progressed; they seem willing to admit to their shortcomings on items like landing site selection but given the knowledge gabs about both moons that's somewhat understandable.
"Let the trails lead where they may, I will follow."
-Tigatron

Tags: Deimos Phobos Mars 
 

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