Author Topic: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy  (Read 22660 times)

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #20 on: 06/01/2008 09:58 pm »
Inside that air conditioned building at Rocket Park is a restored Saturn -
V that has five F-1 and six J-2 engines.  Maybe this can add to the
count we're trying to tally up....
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Online edkyle99

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #21 on: 06/01/2008 10:49 pm »
When the Apollo program was ended there were a lot of spare F-1s sitting around.  I had a general inventory list of F-1 equipment years ago (may still have it buried somewhere).  I believe that there were at least 30 complete F-1 engines at the end of the program. 

I just finished reading Kraemer's "Rocketdyne" history.  The author mentioned that Rocketdyne delivered 98 "flight-rated" F-1 engines to NASA in total.  The company delivered six F-1 engines with each Saturn V kit (one as a backup), which totals 90 for the 15 completed flight-ready Saturn V first stages.  One additional set was presumably delivered for the "T-Bird" S-IC stage.  That makes 96 right there.  65 of these flew.  20 more are on display with completed S-IC stages, bringing the total to 85.  I can think of at least five more on separate display, bringing the total to 90.

Rocketdyne also would have built numerous test engines during the development effort that ran for several years before the first Saturn V-ready F-1s would have been delivered.  Dozens perhaps.  A few of those reportedly suffered "hardware rich combustion" episodes during testing.  I suspect that some of these non-flight-rated engines are also on display across the land.

 - Ed Kyle


« Last Edit: 06/01/2008 10:50 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #22 on: 06/02/2008 12:03 pm »
One thing I didn't add about the Michoud trip was that we did not take photos.  We wanted to, but our guide asked that we not, including not taking photos of the F-1 engines we saw in a storage building.  Considering that they took us anywhere we wanted to go (the benefit of having my friend have some pull at JSC, plus some sweet talking on our part), we did not press it.  I'll ask my buddy if he has the serial numbers from those engines.

Online edkyle99

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #23 on: 06/02/2008 01:52 pm »
I just finished reading Kraemer's "Rocketdyne" history.  The author mentioned that Rocketdyne delivered 98 "flight-rated" F-1 engines to NASA in total.  ...
 - Ed Kyle

A look at Alan Lawrie's wonderful "Saturn" book provides some more information on the F-1 history.  He wrote that Rocketdyne delivered 98 production F-1 engines.  Here is what happened to them:

65 were launched on S-IC stages
10 are on flight stages not launched
16 are either in storage or on display in a museum
2 are on the S-IC-D stage in Huntsville
2 are on the S-IC-T stage at KSC
3 were scrapped or "consumed"

Two additional F-1 engines were manufactured by NASA as a
"learning exercise" using spare parts.  These are on the S-IC-T stage at KSC. 

Seven "serialized mockup" F-1 engines were also produced.  Three of these are on the S-IC-D stage.  One is on the S-IC-T stage.  Two are on display or in storage.  One was "consumed".

For those interested in nameplate information, the serial numbers on the F-1 engine nameplates are NASA numbers, which differ from Rocketdyne's production serial numbers.  The last two digits of the number are the production sequence.  NASA numbers in the 1000 and 2000 series were early test units.  Apollo 4 used 3000 series F-1s.  Apollos 6-8 used 4000 series engines.  Apollo 9-10 used 5000 series units.  All Saturns after that flew 6000-series engines.  The final F-1 delivered was serial number F-6098.

 - Ed Kyle

Offline max isp

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #24 on: 06/02/2008 10:16 pm »
A look at Alan Lawrie's wonderful "Saturn" book provides some more information on the F-1 history. 

On the CD at the back of the book is a spreadsheet listing of all the F-1 engines and their histories.

Offline ntschke

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #25 on: 06/02/2008 10:40 pm »
I have no idea.  How long has that one been on display?

The ones I saw at Michoud were pristine, still in plastic wrapping from back when they were produced.

By the way, I think that the main museum has at least two, not one, but I'd have to go there again and look.

When the Apollo program was ended there were a lot of spare F-1s sitting around.  I had a general inventory list of F-1 equipment years ago (may still have it buried somewhere).  I believe that there were at least 30 complete F-1 engines at the end of the program.  Some of these had been converted to F-1A status.  The list I got was when I wrote to Rocketdyne in the early 1990s.  They wanted an opportunity to put the engine back in production, so they had put together a package indicating how much hardware and blueprints had been saved.  Whenever someone says that the Saturn V "blueprints" were "destroyed by NASA" at the end of the program is wrong.  The agency, and several key contractors, saved the key material because they hoped to someday put the rocket back into production.

I believe they may have 1 and 1/4 F-1s at the A&S museum on the mall.  At least in the display in the post above.  They've got it set up with mirrors and 1 complete engine and then a quarter of another so that it sits in a 90 degree partial cube of mirrors.  When you stand next to the railing in the photo, you can actually see what all 5 engines would look like from that position.  Very cool setup and smart way to save space for something that big.

There may be another one somewhere in the museum as well but it's been a while since I've been there.  Maybe I can make a trip and "research" this issue. ;)

BTW, the pic in this thread with the F-1 next the redstone is also a great comparison of machines and capabilites.  Makes the redstone look like a model rocket.

Offline ntschke

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #26 on: 06/02/2008 10:49 pm »
One more cool link to Udvar-Hazy.  Live webcams of particular parts of the museum, maybe some NSFers can go there and get someone to do a screen capture standing in front of Enterprise...

http://www.nasm.si.edu/interact/webcams/

Offline shuttlelegs

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #27 on: 06/03/2008 06:09 am »
Did you know that there is a full F1 on display in the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney Australia. It is on display standing upright so you walk under it. Do you know what number or the history of this one ?

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #28 on: 06/03/2008 08:28 pm »
On the CD at the back of the book is a spreadsheet listing of all the F-1 engines and their histories.

Right, and good stuff it is.  Here is a partial list derived from Lawrie's table.

Production F-1 Engine Locations (Last Reported)
"Saturn", Alan Lawrie with Robert Godwin, Apogee Books, 2005

Last two serial number digits indicate delivery sequence.
F-1001 was first production F-1 engine, delivered in 1963. 
F-6098 was last production F-1, delivered in 1969.
Serial numbers not listed below were flown engines (see
Lawrie for complete list).

Mockup F-1 engines were also manufactured.  Some of those
are also on display on S-IC-D, S-IC-D, and in museums, etc.


Production F-1 Engines On Stage Displays

S-IC-D at ASRC: F-2003, F-2007
S-IC-T at KSC:  F-2008, F-2010
S-IC-14 at JSC: F-6085, F-6086, F-6089, F-6092, F-6093
S-IC-15 at MAF: F-6060, F-6066, F-6091, F-6097, F-6098

Production F-1 Engines Displayed or Stored Separately
(Listed "Final Dispositions")

Smithsonian:  F-1001
Canoga Park:  F-2004, F-2006, F-3014, F-5037, F-5039
MSFC:  F-2005, F-2009, F-5038
MAF:  F-4023, F-5036, F-6049, F-6090 
ASRC:  F-4028 
EFL:  F-6045
Alamogordo:  F-6067 

Scrapped Production F-1 Engines

F-1002, F-6070, F-6072

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 06/03/2008 08:31 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #29 on: 06/03/2008 09:36 pm »
Right, and good stuff it is.  Here is a partial list derived from Lawrie's table.

Production F-1 Engine Locations (Last Reported)
"Saturn", Alan Lawrie with Robert Godwin, Apogee Books, 2005

Last two serial number digits indicate delivery sequence.
F-1001 was first production F-1 engine, delivered in 1963. 
F-6098 was last production F-1, delivered in 1969.
Serial numbers not listed below were flown engines (see
Lawrie for complete list).

Mockup F-1 engines were also manufactured.  Some of those
are also on display on S-IC-D, S-IC-D, and in museums, etc.


Production F-1 Engines On Stage Displays

S-IC-D at ASRC: F-2003, F-2007
S-IC-T at KSC:  F-2008, F-2010
S-IC-14 at JSC: F-6085, F-6086, F-6089, F-6092, F-6093
S-IC-15 at MAF: F-6060, F-6066, F-6091, F-6097, F-6098

Production F-1 Engines Displayed or Stored Separately
(Listed "Final Dispositions")

Smithsonian:  F-1001
Canoga Park:  F-2004, F-2006, F-3014, F-5037, F-5039
MSFC:  F-2005, F-2009, F-5038
MAF:  F-4023, F-5036, F-6049, F-6090 
ASRC:  F-4028 
EFL:  F-6045
Alamogordo:  F-6067 

Scrapped Production F-1 Engines

F-1002, F-6070, F-6072

 - Ed Kyle

For JSC, your list is showing only five; see my photos taken at Rocket
Park and you can see there's six F-1 at this location.  BTW, excellent
data from a historical point of view. 
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline max isp

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #30 on: 06/03/2008 09:58 pm »
For JSC, your list is showing only five; see my photos taken at Rocket
Park and you can see there's six F-1 at this location.  BTW, excellent
data from a historical point of view. 
Beware mock ups! There is a mock up F-1 outside Rocketdyne's Canoga Park facility. Also a mock up J-2 in the Science Museum in Munich. The F-1 that was outside Building 4200 at MSFC is F-5036 that was originally on the Apollo 10 first stage. It is currently being refurbished.

Online edkyle99

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #31 on: 06/03/2008 10:29 pm »
Beware mock ups! There is a mock up F-1 outside Rocketdyne's Canoga Park facility. Also a mock up J-2 in the Science Museum in Munich. The F-1 that was outside Building 4200 at MSFC is F-5036 that was originally on the Apollo 10 first stage. It is currently being refurbished.

It does appear that some F-1 engines have moved around a bit from the "final dispositions" listed.  One thing that stands out on the list is that five real, honest-to-goodness F-1 engines, including the last one manufactured, are exposed to a pretty harsh exterior environment on the S-IC-15 stage at Michoud.  Hopefully that stage will one day find a home with a roof.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 06/03/2008 10:30 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #32 on: 06/04/2008 09:02 pm »
Beware mock ups! There is a mock up F-1 outside Rocketdyne's Canoga Park facility. Also a mock up J-2 in the Science Museum in Munich. The F-1 that was outside Building 4200 at MSFC is F-5036 that was originally on the Apollo 10 first stage. It is currently being refurbished.

The F-1 on display outside at Rocket Park (JSC) looks like a real one; maybe the next time I head down that way, I'll take another look and see
what the placard on the engine says.  See the pic I posted on Post #7
in this thread. 
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline Coolhand77

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #33 on: 06/05/2008 02:50 am »
OK, all you F-1 geeks.
Big question for you, that might also help define which F-1's are where.

The original F-1's had "straight" Fuel lines from the turbopump to the main valves. There are pics with these engines firing on the test stand.

Somewhere in the program both fuel lines ended up with a downward "loop". First the short one and then both lines. (The KSC S-1C engines have one straight fuel line and one looped if you check the pics)  Eventually, in later models, both lines looped. Most of the stand-alone museum engines have both loops, which makes sense since they were probably later versions.

I'm pretty sure I know "why" they loop, it has to do with valve timing and simplifying the start up and shutdown sequences. These engines were a work of art not only in fabrication but in operation, as simple and fail-safe as possible. Start-up worked with a simple "power up" and normal shutdown with a "power off", no big deal. It was all a matter of pressures building and dropping causing valve timing via hydraulics. (Hence the high cost)

My questions are:
1a) Which F-1 engine versions have straight; one each; or both looped lines?  1b) And where?
2) Do all of the fake engines exhibit the straight lines, or are some of them of the later versions? (These tend to have very fake electrical lines, if any, BTW)
3) Which S-1C's launched with which versions?
4) What distinguished/identified the F-1A versions?

I thought about figuring it out by the pics available, but you guys are so far ahead of me I thought you would might know pretty quickly.

Thanks!



Offline dwmzmm

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #34 on: 06/05/2008 03:56 am »
OK, all you F-1 geeks.
Big question for you, that might also help define which F-1's are where.

The original F-1's had "straight" Fuel lines from the turbopump to the main valves. There are pics with these engines firing on the test stand.

Somewhere in the program both fuel lines ended up with a downward "loop". First the short one and then both lines. (The KSC S-1C engines have one straight fuel line and one looped if you check the pics)  Eventually, in later models, both lines looped. Most of the stand-alone museum engines have both loops, which makes sense since they were probably later versions.

I'm pretty sure I know "why" they loop, it has to do with valve timing and simplifying the start up and shutdown sequences. These engines were a work of art not only in fabrication but in operation, as simple and fail-safe as possible. Start-up worked with a simple "power up" and normal shutdown with a "power off", no big deal. It was all a matter of pressures building and dropping causing valve timing via hydraulics. (Hence the high cost)

My questions are:
1a) Which F-1 engine versions have straight; one each; or both looped lines?  1b) And where?
2) Do all of the fake engines exhibit the straight lines, or are some of them of the later versions? (These tend to have very fake electrical lines, if any, BTW)
3) Which S-1C's launched with which versions?
4) What distinguished/identified the F-1A versions?

I thought about figuring it out by the pics available, but you guys are so far ahead of me I thought you would might know pretty quickly.

Thanks!




I can say with reasonable certainty that all six F-1's at JSC's Rocket Park
have the looped lines (clearly visible in the pics I've posted).
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline matthewota

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #35 on: 06/22/2008 09:05 pm »
Way back in 1990 I visited Rockedyne in Canoga Park. They had an F1 engine in their parking lot, exposed to the elements. I do not know if it is still there.
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Offline dwmzmm

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #36 on: 06/23/2008 04:12 am »
Way back in 1990 I visited Rockedyne in Canoga Park. They had an F1 engine in their parking lot, exposed to the elements. I do not know if it is still there.

Hello Matt, great to see you here!!
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline Archibald

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #37 on: 07/21/2009 06:17 pm »
On the CD at the back of the book is a spreadsheet listing of all the F-1 engines and their histories.

Right, and good stuff it is.  Here is a partial list derived from Lawrie's table.

Production F-1 Engine Locations (Last Reported)
"Saturn", Alan Lawrie with Robert Godwin, Apogee Books, 2005

Last two serial number digits indicate delivery sequence.
F-1001 was first production F-1 engine, delivered in 1963. 
F-6098 was last production F-1, delivered in 1969.
Serial numbers not listed below were flown engines (see
Lawrie for complete list).

Mockup F-1 engines were also manufactured.  Some of those
are also on display on S-IC-D, S-IC-D, and in museums, etc.


Production F-1 Engines On Stage Displays

S-IC-D at ASRC: F-2003, F-2007
S-IC-T at KSC:  F-2008, F-2010
S-IC-14 at JSC: F-6085, F-6086, F-6089, F-6092, F-6093
S-IC-15 at MAF: F-6060, F-6066, F-6091, F-6097, F-6098

Production F-1 Engines Displayed or Stored Separately
(Listed "Final Dispositions")

Smithsonian:  F-1001
Canoga Park:  F-2004, F-2006, F-3014, F-5037, F-5039
MSFC:  F-2005, F-2009, F-5038
MAF:  F-4023, F-5036, F-6049, F-6090 
ASRC:  F-4028 
EFL:  F-6045
Alamogordo:  F-6067 

Scrapped Production F-1 Engines

F-1002, F-6070, F-6072

 - Ed Kyle

Very interesting thread.

Here's a link to a NTRS document on the F-1A.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19740077747_1974077747.pdf

On page 69

Quote
It is estimated that engine 115-4, the F-1A task assignment engine, could
be assembled and made ready for testing 10 months after reactivation
"Go Ahead."
R-

How does this 115-4 number relate to the list above ?


Han shot first and Gwynne Shotwell !

Offline soldeed

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #38 on: 07/22/2009 02:46 am »
A few years ago I was passing through oklahoma and a little town called weatherford And there right beside the highway was Thomas P. Stafford Aerospace museum. Weatherford just happens to be his home town. Well of course I stopped! After perusing the trophy cases containing relics from General Staffords youth I came into the main display hall and among the interesting jets and space paraphernalia, I came up short and my mouth dropped open when I saw what appeared to be a genuine F-1 engine, on it's side. I was cursing myself for not having a camera so I have no pictures of it, but on their website,
http://www.staffordspacecenter.com/   on the exhibits page there is a picture of it.

It really looked real to me, you could look down the throat and see the injector plate, All the plumbing, everything appeared authentic.
« Last Edit: 07/22/2009 03:03 am by soldeed »
The Exodus is behind schedule

Offline Damon Hill

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Re: An F-1 at Udvar-Hazy
« Reply #39 on: 07/22/2009 03:40 am »
Straying just a little bit off-topic, how many Aerojet M-1s are on display, anywhere?  I've heard there's one at the Evergreen Air Museum in McMinnville, OR, which is about four or five hours down the road from me.  Pictures, especially good pictures, are just about non-existent.

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