Author Topic: SpaceX Section Realignment and Thread Housekeeping - Upcoming  (Read 11798 times)

Offline Chris Bergin

We're due to start new threads for the monster threads (Like "General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14) ", with the next thread "15") etc. But looking at the sections, "SpaceX Mars" seems a bit "off" to me.

Perhaps we could change it to SpaceX BFR and move all the BFR threads in there. SpaceX Mars would still be covered in there?

We have a lot of BFR threads in SpaceX General and we probably could use a single section for everything BFR.

SpaceX General - Great.
SpaceX Missions - Super Duper.
SpaceX Reusability - Well that was set up back in the days of Grasshopper and such. Perhaps the section description could use an update. We're more Mr. Steven than Grasshopper these days! ;D
SpaceX BFR - or SpaceX BFR and Mars. Or something else with SpaceX BFR?
SpaceX MegaThreads - works nicely as a good archive.

Let me know.

Also, per the first part of this note, when time allows we'll do some housekeeping and move the mega threads into the SpaceX Megathread archive. They will all be interlinked (reference in last post on the moved thread, linked in opening of the new thread).

Offline rcoppola

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One possible addition and/or regrouping I wouldn't mind seeing is a kind of "SpaceX Infrastructure" or some such Mega Thread naming convention. I think this has enough interest, with enough going on to have its own dedicated home that cuts across current and future vehicle types wrt design, build, test, launch, land, refurb, etc...etc...I think most of this is currently found in General but should be elevated to a main level nav thread header. Or not.  Just a Sunday thought...
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 12:10 AM by rcoppola »
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Offline Ionmars

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We could definitely use a section on BFR. It could be called "BFR and SpaceX Architecture" if you want it to be a little more broad.

I would suggest that the SpaceX Mars section should be about after BFR/ITS gets us to Mars, how to develop the colony. Maybe “Mars Colony Section."
After landing, Mars pioneers will require our continued support.

Offline jpo234

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SpaceX flight Hardware? Would cover boosters and homegrown payloads from Dragon to Starlink...
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Suggestions. How about:

SpaceX Company (or corporate? Or simply "SpaceX". Specifically/directly about it and its locations and related ventures)
SpaceX Missions and Tests (anything in a mission flow start (test?) to finish (recovery/disposal)
SpaceX Current Vehicles/Pads (vehicles/facilities in use or under construction? F9/F9US/Dragon/FH/BFS, 39A, 40, 4E, LZ1 ...)
SpaceX Current Vehicle Recovery/Reuse (actual practice and economics of the business, effectively how does it yield)

SpaceX Future/Other Vehicles (not in use or under construction (like BFR), ITS/F1/F5/BFS tanker?)
SpaceX Plans and Options (include Mars, moon base, other)

Steer away from categories that have any ambiguity (like general or reuse).

Constrain "they ought to do X" stuff into "Future" areas only, so opinion doesn't detract from the obvious present practice employed in actual missions. (Have found it frustrating to find a lot of banter implied as happening mixed in with actual, operational details, and having to sort the two out - likely this is a moderation issue as well. Nothing wrong with "they do it this way, but they should that way, reasons".)

Have comprehensive focus on specific areas only, such that topic wander is obvious.

Have reuse of a specific mission discussion with the mission, discussion of current vehicles reuse/recovery facilities/processes/operations/economics/business as comprehensive section, and let other/future vehicles be covered in that section only - no general reuse section.

Keep other ambitions/plans/fantasies/Musk vision in a plans and options section. If someone thinks SX is about to consider something new/different, all of that only goes here.

add:

As to things like Starlink, that seems to be a case of a future/option turning into a real thing. It's likely that non-HSF  SC are best done in another firm, so it would not surprise me if at some point this activity becomes a "spin-off" firm from SX, in order to preserve certain financial advantages. So far we're seeing these activities - LV/HSF SC/other SC manufacturing, LV/HSF SC operating (launch/mission/recovery/reuse). To achieve other ambitions they'll likely need to add certain other ones as well, and depending on the relationships each of these require, compartmentalization becomes essential.

(SX reminds me of the early evolution of Boeing (they've also noticed this), where they had to pioneer much of the related industries in order to enter service economically. Perhaps BO will follow a similar path.)
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 05:01 PM by Space Ghost 1962 »

Offline speedevil

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We're due to start new threads for the monster threads (Like "General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14) ", with the next thread "15") etc. But looking at the sections, "SpaceX Mars" seems a bit "off" to me.

A lot of the arguments on capabilities of certain platforms are more around the implications of those capabilities than the capabilities themselves.

'BFS can do $19.99/kg to orbit' 'New glen can do $23.45/kg to orbit' - tend to get lots of discussion split into what might better be discussed in  'What happens if LEO payload costs $10-$100/kg' type threads.

Any potential solutions are especially muddy when we consider BFS, where its capabilities are very unusual, and it can plausibly be at least a basis for a hab, station, moonbase, or space telescope.

The problem with fitting many of these types of threads into the conventional forums are that cheap launch can be akin to 'a wizard did it' when discussing things, with a dose of 'when will the wizard arrive', and be unhelpful to everyone.

I personally believe that BFS is likely to arrive by 2022, and maybe even the entire BFR. But someone - maybe even Blue or ULA - is overwhelmingly likely to have hit $100/kg by 2028, and that is the important bit, not who did it.

I can't think of a clean way to do this, other than to mirror large parts of the forum in a new 'Cheap Space Revolution' section, and to somewhat discourage discussion in specific threads in the main part of the forum - at least for several years.

So - for example - discussion of any launch system where the price per kilo to LEO is around the currently purchasable best market price would be in the main part.

And discussions centering around $100, $10 or $1/kg to LEO access would be in the 'low cost' section.

When a serious discussion of a moon rover can have arguments over the fundamental question of is a two ton $2B rover with RTG, or fifty ten ton ones that each last one day better - it's hard to be productive, for example.

There is reasonable discussion to be had on both sides of the cost divide, but very little applies over the whole spectrum and just ends up in people not being excellent to one another.

Does anyone have concrete ideas, there are aspects of the above that have major problems?







Offline AncientU

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SpaceX Reusability could become SpaceX BFR and BFS.

I would like to see a SpaceX Exploration & Exploration Architecture section instead of SpaceX Mars... This could cover Luna plus Mars, refueling and depots, ISRU, colony needs, etc.  The IAC presentations could either go in BFR or here.

Also think the Mars and Moon (and asteriods) sections should be pulled out of SLS/Orion/Beyong-LEO HSF - Constellation section and be made general under a Human BEO Exploration section... to reflect the reality that it is no longer the sole domain of NASA's hardware effort.  If this happened, the separate SpaceX Exploration and Exploration Architecture section wouldn't be needed, and the other efforts like ESA's Lunar Village and Blue's New Armstrong and Blue Moon plans would get their rightful place in this endeavour.
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Offline OxCartMark

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Not sure how this could be implemented but I'd like to see not maybe a special section but a subsection within each section where "what we know" on a particular subject is distilled down and available for quick reference.  Not only in the SpaceX section but across the forum.  If for example I wanted to get up to speed on what the plans are for ULA's Vulcan (which I currently know nearly nothing about) I'd face the intimidating task of reading through thread(s) that are dozens of pages long (taking hours to read) or just reading the last few pages to get the most recent details but missing the big picture.  Much of that reading would be the back and forth of thread participants zeroing in on the actual facts.  But if there was a summary of that information I'd (or anyone would) be able to learn more on a subject more quickly.  But how you ask?  I don't know.  Just throwing out a vision to see if it sticks to anything or anyone.

Offline Lar

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I like some of the reorg suggestions that separate future vehicles out in a different section from future corporate/colonial plans, but I'm not as stirred about exactly what the titles have to be.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Online abaddon

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SpaceX BFR section?

YES PLEASE.  I’ve been hoping for something like that for ages.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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I think BFR/BFS should have a separate section from SpaceX Mars.  They are related, but there are definitely a lot of things related to BFR that have nothing to do with Mars, and also a lot of things related to Mars that aren't directly related to BFR/BFS.

I'd also propose a separate section for Starlink.  That's going to be more and more important in the future, and there's already a lot of discussion around it.  It's time for Starlink to have its own section, I think.

I'm not a fan of section titles that include things like "future" or "architecture" because which of those something goes in will change over time as that thing evolves.  When BFR is flying, it is no longer in the future, and then what -- move all the things about BFR to another section?  I don't think so.  It's the same for "architecture" -- Falcon 9 and Falcon 1 were once the architectural plans of SpaceX.  Organizing into "architecture" and "not architecture" is not useful, in my opinion.

I also think a separate section for reusability has outlived its usefulness.  It made sense when reusability was a research project, but now it's part of everything SpaceX does, current and future.  It's no longer the best way to categorize what SpaceX does.

Here are the sections I would use, if it were up to me:

  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

Offline gongora

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I'm wondering if we need a "SpaceX Congratulations" thread.  Since we booted those from the mission Updates threads there isn't an obvious place to do it anymore (I don't like using the Party thread, it's probably best in the Discussion thread right now.)

Online fishbait

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May I be so bold as to suggest that a section be created in the Commercial and US Government Launch Vehicles for Dragon/Dragon 2 and the H-II Transfer Vehicle (HTV) same as the ones for SNC Dream Chaser Section and Boeing Starliner (CST-100) Section.

Re sections...I have a question re Dream Chaser/ Starliner/New Shepard capsule/Dragon-Dragon2 are these Launch Vehicles by definition being in these sections ...or are they regarded by the community as capsules or spacecraft?
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 12:29 AM by fishbait »

Offline rockets4life97

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May I be so bold as to suggest that a section be created in the Commercial and US Government Launch Vehicles for Dragon/Dragon 2 and the H-II Transfer Vehicle (HTV) same as the ones for SNC Dream Chaser Section and Boeing Starliner (CST-100) Section.

There aren't that many Dragon threads currently. So I don't think that would help much.

I like think adding a BFR section and a Infrastructure/Properties section would be a good idea. These would declutter the General Section.

Offline mattstep

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Here are the sections I would use, if it were up to me:

  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

I like these sections, but I would change "SpaceX Mars" to "SpaceX BEO" and "Starlink" to "SpaceX Earth Orbit."

Offline Coastal Ron

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I think BFR/BFS should have a separate section from SpaceX Mars.  They are related, but there are definitely a lot of things related to BFR that have nothing to do with Mars, and also a lot of things related to Mars that aren't directly related to BFR/BFS.

Agreed. BFR/BFS are deemed to be used for other activities besides Mars.

Quote
I'd also propose a separate section for Starlink.  That's going to be more and more important in the future, and there's already a lot of discussion around it.  It's time for Starlink to have its own section, I think.

Agreed too. This is a separate business, and a different use case for space, but related to space so relevant to NSF.

Quote
I also think a separate section for reusability has outlived its usefulness.  It made sense when reusability was a research project, but now it's part of everything SpaceX does, current and future.  It's no longer the best way to categorize what SpaceX does.

Wow, how quickly that happened, huh? Considering that for decades it was deemed impossible.

Quote
Here are the sections I would use, if it were up to me:

  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

Looks good to me.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline docmordrid

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Looks good here too.
DM

Offline Inoeth


Here are the sections I would use, if it were up to me:

  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

I'm not sure if the SpaceX Mars section is necessary quite yet- at this point in time (as of April 2018)  SpaceX has yet to send anything to mars (beyond the Roadster which tangentially is close-ish to mars at certain points in it's orbit but i'm not sure that counts). I think the BFR/BFS/ITS type thread is good enough and a specific SpaceX Mars section should be put into place when SpaceX begins to actually fly missions to Mars (with BFR/S or perhaps satellites with FH or whatever they chose to do)- then that thread is worth it and until then there's nothing worth posting there that  wouldn't be covered under the nominal BFR/BFS threads...

Beyond that however I like the idea of the BFR topic thread and think that's a better name for the current section.

I also really like the idea of a SpaceX infrastructure section that is specifically on what SpaceX is up to with regards to their operations in Hawthorne, the BFR factory construction, McGreggor, Boca Chica, Seattle, their Florida launch pads and wherever else they start to do some major projects that's of interest to the community.

I however think that the 'reusibility' section now that actually landing and reflying the first stage of F9/FH is more or less down and we're long past things like Grasshopper is an unnecessary section and threads on Mr Steven and fairing catching/reuse could go in the 'General' section instead as there's only so much to be said on those topics- any beyond that you're talking about BFR/BFS which would belong in that section...

Offline jpo234

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Here are the sections I would use, if it were up to me:

  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

Please don't make it too specific. I suggested "Flight Hardware" or maybe "SpaceX Vehicles", so that the section could also contain F9, FH and Dragon in addition to BFR/BFS. With Chris Wilson's suggestion, I would not know where to post about the non Big Fxxxxxalcon hardware.
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 07:01 AM by jpo234 »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline Semmel

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  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

I like your list. And I also like how you included SpaceGhosts idea to clearly separate out future discussions. I find BFR/BFS too specific though. What happens if SpaceX comes around with the next version of BFR architecture and calls it ITS again? As others have mentioned, "SpaceX Mars" is too narrow minded. But I dont like BEO as mattstep mentioned because these acronyms become tedious.

* SpaceX General
* SpaceX Missions
* SpaceX Vehicles
* SpaceX Facilities
* SpaceX Speculation
* SpaceX Megathread Archive

Some explanation:
I disagree with SpaceGhost to rename SpaceX General to anything else. We need a "others" section and going fine grained on the topics per section makes it more confusing for topics that dont quite fit any subtopic but have the potential to cover multiple. I agree however that we need to make the subtopics as disjoint as possible. General is the exception. Also, I think Starlink is an ideal topic for the General thread because it covers all of the below somehow but doesnt fit anywhere completely.

SpaceX Missions, I see no reason to change that. I also support a dedicated congratulations thread.

SpaceX Vehicles could include F9 and its upgrades, future iterations of BFR and also the sea going ships, Dragon, etc. Anything that has to do with bending metal/weaving carbon fibre and is not fixed on the ground.

SpaceX Facilities is for things like launch sites, test sites, ground support, factories

SpaceX Speculation: Ohh yes!

Offline jpo234

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* SpaceX General
* SpaceX Missions
* SpaceX Vehicles
* SpaceX Facilities
* SpaceX Speculation
* SpaceX Megathread Archive

Love it.
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 07:43 AM by jpo234 »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline darkenfast

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SpaceX Company:
   Facilities and Factories (other than pads),
   Pads,
   Vessels, Aircraft and/or Vehicles owned or chartered by SpaceX,
   Customers, Contracts, Hearings and Talks,
   Leadership.

SpaceX Operations:
   Mission Updates,
   Mission Discussion,
   Manifests, Movements and Tests.

SpaceX Operational Rockets and Spacecraft:

   Launchers:
      Falcon 9,
      Falcon Heavy.

   Spacecraft:
      Dragon1,
      Dragon2.

SpaceX Technology:

   Propulsion:
      Merlin Family,
      Draco Family,
      Raptor (included here because it's been fired).

   Working in Space:
      Structures,
      Vacuum and EVA (Suits, Rovers, etc. when they are close to operational)
      GNC,
      Computing,
      General Life Support.

SpaceX Future:

   BFR/BFS,
   Operating on Other Worlds:
      Mars (including ISRU),
      Moon,
      Other Worlds.
   Other Commercial Uses for the BFR/S.

SpaceX Party.

Obviously fluid as subjects move from power-point to reality.



« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 08:06 AM by darkenfast »

Offline TomH

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If SpaceX Mars becomes BFR, where do old Red Dragon threads get archived? Just a thought.

Offline jpo234

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If SpaceX Mars becomes BFR, where do old Red Dragon threads get archived? Just a thought.

That was an announced and later canceled mission, so "SpaceX Missions".

And I still prefer a general "Vehicles" section anyway...
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 08:43 AM by jpo234 »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline CuddlyRocket

I'd have the following sections:

  * SpaceX General Section
  * SpaceX Missions Section

These are fine as as. You need an 'other' section to catch those matters that don't fit in subject-specific sections. In can include the corporate stuff and the activities of Elon and other executives. Missions section is also fine - it will be a long time before there are that many missions you need to start sub-dividing.

  * SpaceX Launch Vehicles and Satellites

Re-named from the Reusable Rockets Section (keeps a lot of threads in the appropriate section). 'Launch' so as not to include transporters, boats, mobile cranes etc. Put satellites here because it's space technology and there's only one at the moment (Starlink).

  * SpaceX Facilities Section

One for the factories, offices, launch sites, testing grounds, docks etc. Plus the SpaceX navy!

  * SpaceX Future Section

Perhaps Future Intentions, so as to not include the marginal or wilder speculations - 'intentions' means something SpaceX have said they intend to do, or have given serious thought to doing as part of their planning.

This would include missions to Mars, the Moon etc. So renamed from SpaceX Mars.

Then the Megathread Archive Section if desired.

Offline speedevil

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I think as well as some of the suggestions upthread, I think a new section in 'General':

'Low Cost Space', How lowering costs may impact all areas of space operations.

May have value.

Stuff that is not SpaceX related, other than as a payload.









Offline MikeAtkinson

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SpaceX Company (or corporate? Or simply "SpaceX". Specifically/directly about it and its locations and related ventures)
SpaceX Missions and Tests (anything in a mission flow start (test?) to finish (recovery/disposal)
SpaceX Current Vehicles/Pads (vehicles/facilities in use or under construction? F9/F9US/Dragon/FH/BFS, 39A, 40, 4E, LZ1 ...)
SpaceX Current Vehicle Recovery/Reuse (actual practice and economics of the business, effectively how does it yield)
SpaceX Future/Other Vehicles (not in use or under construction (like BFR), ITS/F1/F5/BFS tanker?)
SpaceX Plans and Options (include Mars, moon base, other)

I like these with the addition of:

SpaceX Starlink
SpaceX Megathread Archive
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 09:31 AM by MikeAtkinson »

Offline 2megs

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Right now at this moment, I don't think Starlink has enough posts to warrant its own section. There are only two threads, and they're fine. Once they start launching them, the missions would fall under a Missions/Operations section.

Similarly, actual BFR/BFS development is fairly low-traffic. There's just not enough information flowing to fill a section. This will ramp up at the same rate that Falcon ramps down.

So I'd like to see:

* SpaceX Space Development - Things they are actually working on, that go up and down, that aren't part of a specific mission. Dragon, Merlin, Raptor, Falcon, Grasshopper, fairing recovery, composite tanks, BFR/BFS itself, Block 5 and beyond, space suits, ECLSS, and yes Starlink here too.

* SpaceX Missions/Operations - Day to day putting stuff into space. Move the Core Spotting and Launch Log threads here from General, but otherwise this stays the same awesome section that it is.

* SpaceX Facilities/Infrastructure - The boats, the pads, the factories, Nomadd's plant.... Everything they're working on that's necessary to go up and down, but doesn't go up or down itself.

* SpaceX Future - All the aspirational things about 1km-wide orbital fuel depots, Martian export economies, Raptor upper stages atop Falcons, what else you can do with a 12,000-satellite constellation... Please just wall this off in one section so people who aren't interested can safely ignore it without missing discussion of the things that are actually happening.

* SpaceX Company - The business, the people, the things that don't fit elsewhere. There's got to be a catch-all.
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 11:54 AM by 2megs »

Offline rliebman

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i would like to also add references or sub threads, which ADD detail and understanding, to include things like space suits, eclis, 4 hour rendezvous, reuse factors and performance, etc.

I like the introduction of separated 'SpaceX Facilities' and 'SpaceX Vehicles' sections, and maybe it's time for a SpaceX Starlink' section as well, given how production should start later this year and we'll have a lot to discuss.

However I'm strongly agains removing the SpaceX Mars section altogether, especially if BFR is not explicitly  included in the 'general' BLEO HSF section.
I mean, the timing of such a removal would be really bad, now that they're beginning to gear up for BFR and we are at a crucial point for SX's Mars plans...

BFR isn't only a rocket, is a deep space exploration architecture. Not only that, but the most serious HSF Mars exploration architecture in development right now.

We'll need a place to discuss  ISRU plants, initial base infrastructure, partnerships with other agencies for Mars and the moon, more and more as these aspects get details.
This is separated from a 'BFR' or 'SpaceX Vehicles' section.

If the intention is merging SpaceX BLEO plans in the general 'SLS/Orion/HLVs' section, than the section should be renamed to explicitly include BFR as well, to make it clear.
I support this idea, as it would break barriers and encourage a broader discussion of BLEO plans.

The section, however, is currently named 'SLS/Orion/Beyond-LEO HSF - Constellation'. SLS is literally the first word. If we want this section to be about BLEO HSF in general than the name should clearly state that.
I propose a simple
'Beyond LEO HSF' without excluding or implying anything.
Or, if some examples have to be included for clarity, I suggest
'Beyond LEO HSF (SLS/BFR/Orion/Constellation)'

This way SpaceX-specific Mars infrastructure discussion (ISRU, power plants etc.) can happen directly in the 'Mars HSF' section alongside NASA infrastructure plans, and we wouldn't have duplicate threads talking about general Mars base concepts both in the 'Mars HSF' section and in 'SpaceX Mars'. The same goes for Moon plans.


But if you want the section to be general, then 'Beyond LEO HSF' should come first in its title, not 'SLS/Orion'

Similarly, actual BFR/BFS development is fairly low-traffic. There's just not enough information flowing to fill a section. This will ramp up at the same rate that Falcon ramps down.

This is far from true. If you look at the first page in 'SpaceX general' almost half the threads are BFR threads...
Not only that but BFR is the hottest topic in SpaceX Mars and maybe SpaceX Reuse as well...

I'm in favor of a general 'SpaceX Vehicles' section, nonetheless. But it has to include BFR prominently in the description.
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 12:01 PM by AbuSimbel »
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Offline su27k

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I hope we keep the change modest and less radical, remember SpaceX is all about iterative changes.

I think we should keep the number of sections unchanged, it's already tiresome to click through to 4 sections, I think 5+ is overkill. A lot of the proposed sections would have very little traffic, for example Starlink. Also what's wrong with having speculation/future discussion in General section?

I think we should just rename Mars section to "BFR/Mars" section, and move all BFR posts to there, then rename Reusability section to something like "Falcon/Dragon" section, and move all current vehicle related posts there.

Offline Semmel

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I think we should keep the number of sections unchanged, it's already tiresome to click through to 4 sections, I think 5+ is overkill. A lot of the proposed sections would have very little traffic, for example Starlink. Also what's wrong with having speculation/future discussion in General section?

SpaceX seems to attract a lot of people that have really good ideas that are based on a very thin layer of information. Some extreme examples of these speculative ideas are "Raptor upper stage" or "BFS strap-on boosters". These threads (as much fun as they are) dilute the signal to noise of more reality based discussions. Separating them into its own area could have (and I hope will) a positive effect on the remaining threads. Its sometimes really really difficult to find hard information under heaps of speculation in the SpaceX sub-forums. I think a future/speculation section is a very good idea.

Offline 2megs

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Similarly, actual BFR/BFS development is fairly low-traffic. ...

This is far from true. If you look at the first page in 'SpaceX general' almost half the threads are BFR threads...
Not only that but BFR is the hottest topic in SpaceX Mars and maybe SpaceX Reuse as well...

To me, there is a big difference between "actual development" and "about BFR or Mars in some way". That's the line I'd like to draw.

Looking at non-sticky non-deleted threads in the first two pages (as seen on my phone) of the "SpaceX Mars" section: I count only 7 threads about actual work that could/should happen between now and when a BFS first touches down on Mars. On the other hand, I count 31 threads about things that might happen after that, or how SpaceX could build something different/better/in-support-of the BFR, and none of it is anything SpaceX had signaled a specific intention to build.

I'd like to split those things, because I'm primarily interested in the near-term engineering reality. Talk all you want about what SpaceX might someday do (but hasn't announced) with a fully working BFS over in the "SpaceX Future" section, and grim folks like me can choose not to click on it.

The point of having sections is that one person's signal is another person's noise. I don't begrudge you your signal, but I desperately want a way to filter it.

Offline RoboGoofers

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like you often see on web forums someone always posts a topic in the general forum that starts with "i'm not sure where to put this." So, more subforums are great but only if people use them properly, otherwise it'll become more work for the mods to move topics around.

I'd like:
General
F9
BFR
Misisons
-

I question whether starlink or infrastructure or P2P will generate enough threads to warrant their own subforum outside of 'general'

Offline JQP

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Am I the only one wondering if this site is fast-moving enough to demand so many SpaceX subforums? Would one forum for all things SpaceX really be that bad?

Maybe one for SpaceX news articles, and one for SpaceX general?

The thing about categorization is it's always gonna be ambiguous; one good way to not get lost in the weeds is to create as few categories as is practicable.

Online Zardar

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Am I the only one wondering if this site is fast-moving enough to demand so many SpaceX subforums? Would one forum for all things SpaceX really be that bad?

Maybe one for SpaceX news articles, and one for SpaceX general?

The thing about categorization is it's always gonna be ambiguous; one good way to not get lost in the weeds is to create as few categories as is practicable.

Totally disagree!

I just checked the "unread topics" on the forums (as I do!), and there were 14 unread threads.  10 of those were spacex related. This site has always has a large percentage of spacex traffic. And it is a good idea to organise it a bit better, because even if Elon's plans take twice as long to get halfway there, then it gonna get even busier over the next few years.

My preferences to top-level section?

* Spacex Missions and Contracts (move the commercial crew stuff under here also - basically anything spacex is getting paid to do)

* Spacex Operations and infrastructure (all the stuff about factories, production, pads, ships, barges, and other facilities and assets. Including core tracking/moving - they are operational assets now)

* SpaceX BFR - Separate, because it's going to get a lot of traffic

* (SpaceX) starlink - Separate, because again, this is going to have a huge volume of traffic once they start full development and launching.

* And SpaceX General to mop up everything else.








Online meekGee

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I think the reusability thread is an anachronism, from the days reusability was a "maybe", or under development.
With Block 5 vehicles coming on, it's clearly simply a part of everyday vehicles and operations.

So in my mind:

- SpaceX (vehicles and operations)
- SpaceX missions
- SpaceX BFR (vehicle and infrastructure, including Boca Chica, also P2P)
- SpaceX Mars (Colony etc - expect this subforum to grow in the coming year or two as more information comes out)

If we create too many sub-forums, there will always be arguments over which sub-forum to put threads in.

Not to sure where to put StarLink, probably in the first section, but it's of limited scope.
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Offline AC in NC

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To my mind:

- SpaceX General:
- SpaceX Missions
- SpaceX Falcon Family (Vehicle and Infrastructure)
- SpaceX BFR (Vehicle and Infrastructure, Refueling)
- SpaceX Endeavors including related (Moon, Mars, Colonization, Constellations, Tunnelling, P2P, Depots, Staging, Exploration)

« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 04:53 PM by AC in NC »

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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I would like to see:

-SpaceX Corporate and Infrastructure (launch facilities, McGregor, manufacturing plants, drone ships, etc)
-SpaceX Missions (missions on the current launch manifest)
-SpaceX Future Missions (Mars, Moon, BEO, speculative missions for the DOD, other nations, etc, things that are not in the launch manifest, yet).
-SpaceX Falcon Family and Merlin (I think that now that reusability for F9 and FH is established, the Reusability section is somewhat redundant, plus it currently contains a mix of F9 and BFR and other things).
-SpaceX BFS/BFR and Raptor
-SpaceX Spacecraft and Satellites (for Dragon/2, Starlink and whatever else they will invent in the future)
-SpaceX Archive
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 06:15 PM by Elmar Moelzer »

Offline JQP

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Quote
Totally disagree!

How does one disagree with questions? :)

Offline Kabloona

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* Spacex Operations and infrastructure (all the stuff about factories, production, pads, ships, barges, and other facilities and assets. Including core tracking/moving - they are operational assets now)



+1 for the "Operations and Infrastructure" heading. Lots of existing threads would fit well under it, as Zardar said, and several previous commenters seem to have neglected this category.

Offline Chris Bergin

Some good food for thought here! I am leaning towards an extra section to spread it out. Won't be starlink, obviously. Remember, new sections need to be able house at least 30-40 threads already in other sections. So apply that if you haven't already.

Offline Chris Bergin

Working off suggestions and likes and my own personal opinion (counts for something ;D) I'm liking this. No need for a Starlink section (for now).

SpaceX General.
SpaceX Missions.
SpaceX Facilities and Fleets (from pads to Mr. Stevens)
SpaceX BFR - Earth to Deep Space (not enough for a SpaceX Mars standalone yet. BFR Earth to Earth and BFR Deep Space)
SpaceX Speculation (Jury is out on that. Could it become a New Physics Section style hotbed of nonsense? Although I do like it as a relief valve for the other sections. Maybe call it something other than "Speculation"?)
SpaceX Megathread (that'll fill up some more as we do the housekeeping and move some of the massive older threads).

Will work on the framework over the weekend and then the work will begin where we move threads across where required. When we do we'll have a lead thread in the section to post links to threads to be moved, so we can all help out.

But first, still time for thoughts.....
« Last Edit: 04/21/2018 11:04 AM by Chris Bergin »

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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-SpaceX Falcon Family and Merlin (I think that now that reusability for F9 and FH is established, the Reusability section is somewhat redundant, plus it currently contains a mix of F9 and BFR and other things).

I agree with the above and think it's missing from your proposal Chris. Without it, there are a number of reusability threads (such as fairing re-use, S2 use etc) that'll end up going back to General and I wonder if General then becomes too large/unbalanced? There are plenty of Falcon threads to warrant their own section. That may reduce General somewhat, but don't see that as a bad thing.

Obviously the key thing is that people can find threads and are clear about where to start new ones (so we don't end up with duplicates in different sections).

Edit to add: expanding that last point - one danger with 'Speculation' as a separate section is that is can be hard to get consensus on where normal discussion/debate ends and speculation begins! For exanple, quite a lot about BFR is inherently speculative currently, as it's early days and not much detailed info is known/released. So which BFR threads belong in a BFR section and which in speculation? I'm all for separate speculative threads, but not sure about separate section.
« Last Edit: 04/13/2018 01:46 PM by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline Semmel

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Working off suggestions and likes and my own personal opinion (counts for something ;D) I'm liking this. No need for a Starlink section (for now).

SpaceX General.
SpaceX Missions.
SpaceX Facilities and Fleets (from pads to Mr. Stevens)
SpaceX BFR - Earth to Deep Space (not enough for a SpaceX Mars standalone yet. BFR Earth to Earth and BFR Deep Space)
SpaceX Speculation (Jury is out on that. Could it become a New Physics Section style hotbed of nonsense? Although I do like it as a relief valve for the other sections. Maybe call it something other than "Speculation"?)
SpaceX Megathread (that'll fill up some more as we do the housekeeping and move some of the massive older threads).

Will work on the framework over the weekend and then the work will begin where we move threads across where required. When we do we'll have a lead thread in the section to post links to threads to be moved, so we can all help out.

But first, still time for thoughts.....


You could rename "SpaceX Speculation" with "SpaceX Brainstorm" if you like that term better. Has a slightly more practical and less dismissive connotation.

One question though, where should a F9-based discussion happen in this framework? Or Dragon?

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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-SpaceX Falcon Family and Merlin (I think that now that reusability for F9 and FH is established, the Reusability section is somewhat redundant, plus it currently contains a mix of F9 and BFR and other things).

I agree with the above and think it's missing from your proposal Chris. Without it, there are a number of reusability threads (such as fairing re-use, S2 use etc) that'll end up going back to General and I wonder if General then becomes too large/unbalanced? There are plenty of Falcon threads to warrant their own section. That may reduce General somewhat, but don't see that as a bad thing.
Exactly. One of the values of this site is that it leads itself to greater comprehension on an area.

(It's also why the "General" becomes a bit useless. After a while, all the categories have too much ambiguity and that takes away from the value of the site, and you don't want to look at them because you know they'll be too much meandering posts to dig through.)

The best of these have always been the Missions section. (ULA and Ariane Group could also use a Missions section.)

Quote
Obviously the key thing is that people can find threads and are clear about where to start new ones (so we don't end up with duplicates in different sections).
Dilutes the content.

Quote
Edit to add: expanding that last point - one danger with 'Speculation' as a separate section is that is can be hard to get consensus on where normal discussion/debate ends and speculation begins! For exanple, quite a lot about BFR is inherently speculative currently, as it's early days and not much detailed info is known/released. So which BFR threads belong in a BFR section and which in speculation? I'm all for separate speculative threads, but not sure about separate section.

I called it "Futures and Option". In large companies you have corporate strategy groups that posit different roadmaps (futures) to drive the firm to, or "forks in the road" (options) that are different means to get to the same end. (Both SX and BO plan like this, examples are in stage recovery, Dragon solar panel deployment, and how FH evolved, as well as changes in New Glenn).

In mathematics we have a technique called variation of parameters, and in orbital mechanics and physics the virial theorem allow you to arrive at roughly the same goal/point (in a symplectic geometry) through many means. Often the best ideas here are simply different ways in like kind to the same end. They also tend to have less nonsense because the knowledge base self organizes, reducing the burden on the mods.

However arranged/named, it would be nice if this trend were maintained, as it moves away from "reddit chaos" common elsewhere, but lesser here.

add:
A radical suggestion of having a Missions top level section, with an entry for each provider(or country) might be the strongest position, then have the rest arranged as otherwise. Since most of the activity would be centered there, it would amplify the sites metrics as well as draw in the greatest cross section of space interest on the Internet.

(The biggest thrill for me with this has always been the "welcome to the mission" kick-off. Can remember each of them, in detail. And has always brought me back after many long times away. Always been/will be about the missions, also the lens of other professional exploits chosen.)
« Last Edit: 04/15/2018 06:23 PM by Space Ghost 1962 »

I too vote against the speculation section, and to use clear titles.

Someone said that 'too many sections cause confusion'. I disagree, the number isn't the real problem: it's all about  title clarity.
The titles of the sections should be unequivocal. Sections should not juxtapose and their name should set them apart without leaving room for interpretation A 'speculation' section would result in endless snarky, off-topic posts to move things there, discussions over what's speculation and what isn't etc.

Another example is the 'Facilities and Fleets (from pads to Mr. Stevens)' section that Chris proposed. IMO this is too long and unclear. Wouldn't 'SpaceX Infrastructure' be shorter and clearer?

Even ' BFR - Earth to Deep Space' should be shortened to 'SpaceX BFR' for the sake of clarity IMO. 'Earth to DS' doesn't really add anything after all.

Also: this is a forum, we are here for discussion, not just for the news. Speculation is part of the discussion, and if you don't like speculation threads you can just avoid them. I don't see why we should have apartheids just because some can't stand the sight of a 'BFR SSTO' thread in the BFR section. I mean you are not forced to click on it...
« Last Edit: 04/15/2018 09:07 PM by AbuSimbel »
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Offline philw1776

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I too vote against the speculation section, and to use clear titles.

Someone said that 'too many sections cause confusion'. I disagree, the number isn't the real problem: it's all about  title clarity.
The titles of the sections should be unequivocal. Sections should not juxtapose and their name should set them apart without leaving room for interpretation A 'speculation' section would result in endless snarky, off-topic posts to move things there, discussions over what's speculation and what isn't etc.

Another example is the 'Facilities and Fleets (from pads to Mr. Stevens)' section that Chris proposed. IMO this is too long and unclear. Wouldn't 'SpaceX Infrastructure' be shorter and clearer?

Even ' BFR - Earth to Deep Space' should be shortened to 'SpaceX BFR' for the sake of clarity IMO. 'Earth to DS' doesn't really add anything after all.

Also: this is a forum, we are here for discussion, not just for the news. Speculation is part of the discussion, and if you don't like speculation threads you can just avoid them. I don't see why we should have apartheids just because some can't stand the sight of a 'BFR SSTO' thread in the BFR section. I mean you are not forced to click on it...

Agree with all said.
As to not being forced to click on a thread, a "Hide Thread" function would clear up readability.
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Offline Chris Bergin

Still thinking about this, but based on the two "speculation" threads we've had since, we're not going to have a speculation section here. Both threads were low quality to say the least.

Offline Kabloona

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Another example is the 'Facilities and Fleets (from pads to Mr. Stevens)' section that Chris proposed. IMO this is too long and unclear. Wouldn't 'SpaceX Infrastructure' be shorter and clearer?


Disagree. "Facilities and Fleets" is quite clear.

By contrast,  "Infrastructure" does not obviously include ships, and people looking for info on the fleet may not think to look under "infrastructure." That would be confusing, to me at least.


Offline rosbif73

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Disagree. "Facilities and Fleets" is quite clear.

By contrast,  "Infrastructure" does not obviously include ships, and people looking for info on the fleet may not think to look under "infrastructure." That would be confusing, to me at least.

Agree that infrastructure doesn't obviously include the recovery and support vessels. However, the way SpaceX is heading, "Fleets" could equally be misinterpreted as fleets of rockets.

"SpaceX Infrastructure (land and sea)" might clarify that, but lacks brevity. Any other ideas?

Offline yokem55

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Disagree. "Facilities and Fleets" is quite clear.

By contrast,  "Infrastructure" does not obviously include ships, and people looking for info on the fleet may not think to look under "infrastructure." That would be confusing, to me at least.

Agree that infrastructure doesn't obviously include the recovery and support vessels. However, the way SpaceX is heading, "Fleets" could equally be misinterpreted as fleets of rockets.

"SpaceX Infrastructure (land and sea)" might clarify that, but lacks brevity. Any other ideas?
If "SpaceX Facilities and Fleets" was coupled with a "SpaceX Vehicles and Spacecraft" section, it would be pretty clear which covered which topic.

Offline gongora

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If "SpaceX Facilities and Fleets" was coupled with a "SpaceX Vehicles and Spacecraft" section, it would be pretty clear which covered which topic.

Maybe if you changed it to "Launch Vehicles and Spacecraft"

Offline Chris Bergin

So using this as a baseline:

SpaceX General.
SpaceX Missions.
SpaceX Facilities and Fleets.
SpaceX BFR - Earth to Deep Space.
SpaceX Megathreads.

--

Let's refine that - if needed - per the most recent posts about keeping clear sep between sections. We'll start thread moves next week, so we have a few more days to get this right (and getting it right from the start is best, as opposed to several further changes).
« Last Edit: 04/27/2018 02:18 PM by Chris Bergin »

Offline Rabidpanda

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Is the Megathreads section meant to be an archive for old threads? If so, it might be useful to call it 'Megathreads Archive' or similar.

Offline Chris Bergin

Is the Megathreads section meant to be an archive for old threads? If so, it might be useful to call it 'Megathreads Archive' or similar.

Yes, the goal of that was a relief valve for the General section, otherwise that would have become way too large, and also a good quick reference section. Such as searching terms.

Offline Chris Bergin

Decided there are too many reuse-dedicated threads in that current section, so adding a new section, for Facilities and Fleets is a great solution to trimming down some of the other sections and having useful separation.

SpaceX General.
SpaceX Missions.
SpaceX Facilities and Fleets.
SpaceX Reusability
SpaceX BFR - Earth to Deep Space.
SpaceX Megathreads.

Offline gongora

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Where will threads reside that are about setting up a SpaceX colony on Mars but aren't necessarily BFR focused?  Still in the BFR section?

Offline deruch

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Where will threads reside that are about setting up a SpaceX colony on Mars but aren't necessarily BFR focused?  Still in the BFR section?

Maybe Facilities & Fleets?  They are about speculating on future SpaceX facilities.
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Offline Swoopert

SpaceX Reusability
First i is missing from the header in the actual section...call it my eye for detal ;)

Offline ChrisC

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Took me a little bit to find the Boca Chica thread.  I think that one deserves a "Moved" token thread, in the board=45 General group, like you do for Live coverage.  Make sure the token thread has "Texas" in the name, and even better "Boca Chica", so we see it when scanning for it.

So, now I add board=80 to my regular read sequence ...
« Last Edit: 05/04/2018 03:30 AM by ChrisC »
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Offline Chris Bergin

Took me a little bit to find the Boca Chica thread.  I think that one deserves a "Moved" token thread, in the board=45 General group, like you do for Live coverage.  Make sure the token thread has "Texas" in the name, and even better "Boca Chica", so we see it when scanning for it.

So, now I add board=80 to my regular read sequence ...


Copy that. Still some moving to do, but it got a bit busy with the reporting side of things. :)

Also, we have the "new threads" to set up for the currently massive continuation threads.

Offline ChrisC

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I still think that Boca Chica thread deserves a placeholder, per above.

Separately, considering the recent realignment of the SpaceX threads, should the "Where will BFR be built?" / Long Beach thread be moved over to the Facilities and Fleets thread group?

EDIT: and I went to go get that thread URL from the General group to link to it  here, and now I realize that it has already been moved to the new BFR group.  I had used Google to find it.  Ooookay then, nevermind.

You might think about adding "Long Beach" that thread title, or splitting off firm Long Beach construction updates from the usual BFR-could-be-built-over-here idle chatter.
« Last Edit: 05/07/2018 03:05 AM by ChrisC »
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Offline gongora

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Separately, considering the recent realignment of the SpaceX threads, should the "Where will BFR be built?" / Long Beach thread be moved over to the Facilities and Fleets thread group?

Done.  BFR Manufacturing Facility in San Pedro (Los Angeles)
« Last Edit: 05/07/2018 02:49 PM by gongora »

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