Author Topic: SpaceX Section Realignment and Thread Housekeeping - Upcoming  (Read 15687 times)

Online Chris Bergin

We're due to start new threads for the monster threads (Like "General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14) ", with the next thread "15") etc. But looking at the sections, "SpaceX Mars" seems a bit "off" to me.

Perhaps we could change it to SpaceX BFR and move all the BFR threads in there. SpaceX Mars would still be covered in there?

We have a lot of BFR threads in SpaceX General and we probably could use a single section for everything BFR.

SpaceX General - Great.
SpaceX Missions - Super Duper.
SpaceX Reusability - Well that was set up back in the days of Grasshopper and such. Perhaps the section description could use an update. We're more Mr. Steven than Grasshopper these days! ;D
SpaceX BFR - or SpaceX BFR and Mars. Or something else with SpaceX BFR?
SpaceX MegaThreads - works nicely as a good archive.

Let me know.

Also, per the first part of this note, when time allows we'll do some housekeeping and move the mega threads into the SpaceX Megathread archive. They will all be interlinked (reference in last post on the moved thread, linked in opening of the new thread).

Online rcoppola

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One possible addition and/or regrouping I wouldn't mind seeing is a kind of "SpaceX Infrastructure" or some such Mega Thread naming convention. I think this has enough interest, with enough going on to have its own dedicated home that cuts across current and future vehicle types wrt design, build, test, launch, land, refurb, etc...etc...I think most of this is currently found in General but should be elevated to a main level nav thread header. Or not.  Just a Sunday thought...
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 12:10 AM by rcoppola »
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Offline Ionmars

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We could definitely use a section on BFR. It could be called "BFR and SpaceX Architecture" if you want it to be a little more broad.

I would suggest that the SpaceX Mars section should be about after BFR/ITS gets us to Mars, how to develop the colony. Maybe “Mars Colony Section."
Could a Mars pole-vaulter set a new record? Not in a space suit. (smiley)

Online jpo234

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SpaceX flight Hardware? Would cover boosters and homegrown payloads from Dragon to Starlink...
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Suggestions. How about:

SpaceX Company (or corporate? Or simply "SpaceX". Specifically/directly about it and its locations and related ventures)
SpaceX Missions and Tests (anything in a mission flow start (test?) to finish (recovery/disposal)
SpaceX Current Vehicles/Pads (vehicles/facilities in use or under construction? F9/F9US/Dragon/FH/BFS, 39A, 40, 4E, LZ1 ...)
SpaceX Current Vehicle Recovery/Reuse (actual practice and economics of the business, effectively how does it yield)

SpaceX Future/Other Vehicles (not in use or under construction (like BFR), ITS/F1/F5/BFS tanker?)
SpaceX Plans and Options (include Mars, moon base, other)

Steer away from categories that have any ambiguity (like general or reuse).

Constrain "they ought to do X" stuff into "Future" areas only, so opinion doesn't detract from the obvious present practice employed in actual missions. (Have found it frustrating to find a lot of banter implied as happening mixed in with actual, operational details, and having to sort the two out - likely this is a moderation issue as well. Nothing wrong with "they do it this way, but they should that way, reasons".)

Have comprehensive focus on specific areas only, such that topic wander is obvious.

Have reuse of a specific mission discussion with the mission, discussion of current vehicles reuse/recovery facilities/processes/operations/economics/business as comprehensive section, and let other/future vehicles be covered in that section only - no general reuse section.

Keep other ambitions/plans/fantasies/Musk vision in a plans and options section. If someone thinks SX is about to consider something new/different, all of that only goes here.

add:

As to things like Starlink, that seems to be a case of a future/option turning into a real thing. It's likely that non-HSF  SC are best done in another firm, so it would not surprise me if at some point this activity becomes a "spin-off" firm from SX, in order to preserve certain financial advantages. So far we're seeing these activities - LV/HSF SC/other SC manufacturing, LV/HSF SC operating (launch/mission/recovery/reuse). To achieve other ambitions they'll likely need to add certain other ones as well, and depending on the relationships each of these require, compartmentalization becomes essential.

(SX reminds me of the early evolution of Boeing (they've also noticed this), where they had to pioneer much of the related industries in order to enter service economically. Perhaps BO will follow a similar path.)
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 05:01 PM by Space Ghost 1962 »

Offline speedevil

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We're due to start new threads for the monster threads (Like "General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 14) ", with the next thread "15") etc. But looking at the sections, "SpaceX Mars" seems a bit "off" to me.

A lot of the arguments on capabilities of certain platforms are more around the implications of those capabilities than the capabilities themselves.

'BFS can do $19.99/kg to orbit' 'New glen can do $23.45/kg to orbit' - tend to get lots of discussion split into what might better be discussed in  'What happens if LEO payload costs $10-$100/kg' type threads.

Any potential solutions are especially muddy when we consider BFS, where its capabilities are very unusual, and it can plausibly be at least a basis for a hab, station, moonbase, or space telescope.

The problem with fitting many of these types of threads into the conventional forums are that cheap launch can be akin to 'a wizard did it' when discussing things, with a dose of 'when will the wizard arrive', and be unhelpful to everyone.

I personally believe that BFS is likely to arrive by 2022, and maybe even the entire BFR. But someone - maybe even Blue or ULA - is overwhelmingly likely to have hit $100/kg by 2028, and that is the important bit, not who did it.

I can't think of a clean way to do this, other than to mirror large parts of the forum in a new 'Cheap Space Revolution' section, and to somewhat discourage discussion in specific threads in the main part of the forum - at least for several years.

So - for example - discussion of any launch system where the price per kilo to LEO is around the currently purchasable best market price would be in the main part.

And discussions centering around $100, $10 or $1/kg to LEO access would be in the 'low cost' section.

When a serious discussion of a moon rover can have arguments over the fundamental question of is a two ton $2B rover with RTG, or fifty ten ton ones that each last one day better - it's hard to be productive, for example.

There is reasonable discussion to be had on both sides of the cost divide, but very little applies over the whole spectrum and just ends up in people not being excellent to one another.

Does anyone have concrete ideas, there are aspects of the above that have major problems?







Online AncientU

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SpaceX Reusability could become SpaceX BFR and BFS.

I would like to see a SpaceX Exploration & Exploration Architecture section instead of SpaceX Mars... This could cover Luna plus Mars, refueling and depots, ISRU, colony needs, etc.  The IAC presentations could either go in BFR or here.

Also think the Mars and Moon (and asteriods) sections should be pulled out of SLS/Orion/Beyong-LEO HSF - Constellation section and be made general under a Human BEO Exploration section... to reflect the reality that it is no longer the sole domain of NASA's hardware effort.  If this happened, the separate SpaceX Exploration and Exploration Architecture section wouldn't be needed, and the other efforts like ESA's Lunar Village and Blue's New Armstrong and Blue Moon plans would get their rightful place in this endeavour.
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Offline OxCartMark

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Not sure how this could be implemented but I'd like to see not maybe a special section but a subsection within each section where "what we know" on a particular subject is distilled down and available for quick reference.  Not only in the SpaceX section but across the forum.  If for example I wanted to get up to speed on what the plans are for ULA's Vulcan (which I currently know nearly nothing about) I'd face the intimidating task of reading through thread(s) that are dozens of pages long (taking hours to read) or just reading the last few pages to get the most recent details but missing the big picture.  Much of that reading would be the back and forth of thread participants zeroing in on the actual facts.  But if there was a summary of that information I'd (or anyone would) be able to learn more on a subject more quickly.  But how you ask?  I don't know.  Just throwing out a vision to see if it sticks to anything or anyone.

Offline Lar

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I like some of the reorg suggestions that separate future vehicles out in a different section from future corporate/colonial plans, but I'm not as stirred about exactly what the titles have to be.
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
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Online abaddon

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SpaceX BFR section?

YES PLEASE.  I’ve been hoping for something like that for ages.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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I think BFR/BFS should have a separate section from SpaceX Mars.  They are related, but there are definitely a lot of things related to BFR that have nothing to do with Mars, and also a lot of things related to Mars that aren't directly related to BFR/BFS.

I'd also propose a separate section for Starlink.  That's going to be more and more important in the future, and there's already a lot of discussion around it.  It's time for Starlink to have its own section, I think.

I'm not a fan of section titles that include things like "future" or "architecture" because which of those something goes in will change over time as that thing evolves.  When BFR is flying, it is no longer in the future, and then what -- move all the things about BFR to another section?  I don't think so.  It's the same for "architecture" -- Falcon 9 and Falcon 1 were once the architectural plans of SpaceX.  Organizing into "architecture" and "not architecture" is not useful, in my opinion.

I also think a separate section for reusability has outlived its usefulness.  It made sense when reusability was a research project, but now it's part of everything SpaceX does, current and future.  It's no longer the best way to categorize what SpaceX does.

Here are the sections I would use, if it were up to me:

  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

Online gongora

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I'm wondering if we need a "SpaceX Congratulations" thread.  Since we booted those from the mission Updates threads there isn't an obvious place to do it anymore (I don't like using the Party thread, it's probably best in the Discussion thread right now.)

Offline fishbait

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May I be so bold as to suggest that a section be created in the Commercial and US Government Launch Vehicles for Dragon/Dragon 2 and the H-II Transfer Vehicle (HTV) same as the ones for SNC Dream Chaser Section and Boeing Starliner (CST-100) Section.

Re sections...I have a question re Dream Chaser/ Starliner/New Shepard capsule/Dragon-Dragon2 are these Launch Vehicles by definition being in these sections ...or are they regarded by the community as capsules or spacecraft?
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 12:29 AM by fishbait »

Offline rockets4life97

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May I be so bold as to suggest that a section be created in the Commercial and US Government Launch Vehicles for Dragon/Dragon 2 and the H-II Transfer Vehicle (HTV) same as the ones for SNC Dream Chaser Section and Boeing Starliner (CST-100) Section.

There aren't that many Dragon threads currently. So I don't think that would help much.

I like think adding a BFR section and a Infrastructure/Properties section would be a good idea. These would declutter the General Section.

Offline mattstep

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Here are the sections I would use, if it were up to me:

  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

I like these sections, but I would change "SpaceX Mars" to "SpaceX BEO" and "Starlink" to "SpaceX Earth Orbit."

Online Coastal Ron

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I think BFR/BFS should have a separate section from SpaceX Mars.  They are related, but there are definitely a lot of things related to BFR that have nothing to do with Mars, and also a lot of things related to Mars that aren't directly related to BFR/BFS.

Agreed. BFR/BFS are deemed to be used for other activities besides Mars.

Quote
I'd also propose a separate section for Starlink.  That's going to be more and more important in the future, and there's already a lot of discussion around it.  It's time for Starlink to have its own section, I think.

Agreed too. This is a separate business, and a different use case for space, but related to space so relevant to NSF.

Quote
I also think a separate section for reusability has outlived its usefulness.  It made sense when reusability was a research project, but now it's part of everything SpaceX does, current and future.  It's no longer the best way to categorize what SpaceX does.

Wow, how quickly that happened, huh? Considering that for decades it was deemed impossible.

Quote
Here are the sections I would use, if it were up to me:

  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

Looks good to me.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline docmordrid

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Looks good here too.
DM

Offline Inoeth


Here are the sections I would use, if it were up to me:

  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

I'm not sure if the SpaceX Mars section is necessary quite yet- at this point in time (as of April 2018)  SpaceX has yet to send anything to mars (beyond the Roadster which tangentially is close-ish to mars at certain points in it's orbit but i'm not sure that counts). I think the BFR/BFS/ITS type thread is good enough and a specific SpaceX Mars section should be put into place when SpaceX begins to actually fly missions to Mars (with BFR/S or perhaps satellites with FH or whatever they chose to do)- then that thread is worth it and until then there's nothing worth posting there that  wouldn't be covered under the nominal BFR/BFS threads...

Beyond that however I like the idea of the BFR topic thread and think that's a better name for the current section.

I also really like the idea of a SpaceX infrastructure section that is specifically on what SpaceX is up to with regards to their operations in Hawthorne, the BFR factory construction, McGreggor, Boca Chica, Seattle, their Florida launch pads and wherever else they start to do some major projects that's of interest to the community.

I however think that the 'reusibility' section now that actually landing and reflying the first stage of F9/FH is more or less down and we're long past things like Grasshopper is an unnecessary section and threads on Mr Steven and fairing catching/reuse could go in the 'General' section instead as there's only so much to be said on those topics- any beyond that you're talking about BFR/BFS which would belong in that section...

Online jpo234

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Here are the sections I would use, if it were up to me:

  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

Please don't make it too specific. I suggested "Flight Hardware" or maybe "SpaceX Vehicles", so that the section could also contain F9, FH and Dragon in addition to BFR/BFS. With Chris Wilson's suggestion, I would not know where to post about the non Big Fxxxxxalcon hardware.
« Last Edit: 04/09/2018 07:01 AM by jpo234 »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Online Semmel

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  * SpaceX General
  * SpaceX Missions
  * SpaceX BFR/BFS
  * SpaceX Mars
  * Starlink
  * SpaceX Speculation (for posts proposing other things SpaceX could do that they haven't said they are doing)
  * SpaceX Megathread Archive

I like your list. And I also like how you included SpaceGhosts idea to clearly separate out future discussions. I find BFR/BFS too specific though. What happens if SpaceX comes around with the next version of BFR architecture and calls it ITS again? As others have mentioned, "SpaceX Mars" is too narrow minded. But I dont like BEO as mattstep mentioned because these acronyms become tedious.

* SpaceX General
* SpaceX Missions
* SpaceX Vehicles
* SpaceX Facilities
* SpaceX Speculation
* SpaceX Megathread Archive

Some explanation:
I disagree with SpaceGhost to rename SpaceX General to anything else. We need a "others" section and going fine grained on the topics per section makes it more confusing for topics that dont quite fit any subtopic but have the potential to cover multiple. I agree however that we need to make the subtopics as disjoint as possible. General is the exception. Also, I think Starlink is an ideal topic for the General thread because it covers all of the below somehow but doesnt fit anywhere completely.

SpaceX Missions, I see no reason to change that. I also support a dedicated congratulations thread.

SpaceX Vehicles could include F9 and its upgrades, future iterations of BFR and also the sea going ships, Dragon, etc. Anything that has to do with bending metal/weaving carbon fibre and is not fixed on the ground.

SpaceX Facilities is for things like launch sites, test sites, ground support, factories

SpaceX Speculation: Ohh yes!

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