Lunar Starship may develop major technical issues/delays. That doesn’t change the fact that NASA/Congress had an insane approach to civil human space exploration that funded a heavy lifter and capsule for years with nothing for landers or other necessary elements of an actual exploration architecture. That’s fundamentally why we’re going to spend $4B to $5B+ a year for Orion/SLS for years to come with no human lunar landing. Any SpaceX issues would be added to that already lengthy and elongated timeline, not the original cause of it.
snip That doesn’t change the fact that NASA/Congress had an insane approach to civil human space exploration that funded a heavy lifter and capsule for years with nothing for landers or other necessary elements of an actual exploration architecture. That’s fundamentally why we’re going to spend $4B to $5B+ a year for Orion/SLS for years to come with no human lunar landing. snip
I know it's unlikely but just the thought of having someone there to greet the astronauts as they transfer from the relatively cramped Orion to the roomy LSS, makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.
Quote from: Ben Baley on 12/19/2022 10:08 amI know it's unlikely but just the thought of having someone there to greet the astronauts as they transfer from the relatively cramped Orion to the roomy LSS, makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.What makes you LSS will be roomy?
We’ve seen mock ups of the airlocks, and each is about 3m tall by 3m in diameter, meaning each of the two airlocks alone have more volume than the habitable volume of Orion. And there will only be 2 people on HLS (at first).
Quote from: Robotbeat on 12/21/2022 05:07 pmWe’ve seen mock ups of the airlocks, and each is about 3m tall by 3m in diameter, meaning each of the two airlocks alone have more volume than the habitable volume of Orion. And there will only be 2 people on HLS (at first).I would take mockups of any of the crew space in HLS with a grain of salt right now. Major design things like propellant transfer have not been worked out yet. These could eat into what space is available.
Quote from: Jim on 12/21/2022 04:59 pmQuote from: Ben Baley on 12/19/2022 10:08 amI know it's unlikely but just the thought of having someone there to greet the astronauts as they transfer from the relatively cramped Orion to the roomy LSS, makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.What makes you LSS will be roomy?We’ve seen mock ups of the airlocks, and each is about 3m tall by 3m in diameter, meaning each of the two airlocks alone have more volume than the habitable volume of Orion. And there will only be 2 people on HLS (at first).https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20220003725/downloads/22%203%207%20Kent%20IEEE%20paper.pdf
Not really sure what your point was, but it kinda seemed like you said everyone else sux but spaceX got big brain power?
If this thread is about Appendix P, then isn't it explicitly NOT about Starship?
The HLS may not end up being roomy compared to a house but considering the volume they're starting from I find it hard to believe it won't feel roomier than any spacecraft/station preceding it.
(BTW, that’s why “space smells like bacon”… that’s the smell of the oil in the vacuum pumps used to pump down the airlocks into ISS, IIRC)
https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-selects-blue-origin-as-second-artemis-lunar-lander-providerQuoteMay 19, 2023RELEASE 23-056NASA Selects Blue Origin as Second Artemis Lunar Lander ProviderTo develop a human landing system for the agency’s Artemis V mission to the Moon, NASA has selected Blue Origin of Kent, Washington. Through Artemis, NASA will explore more of the Moon than ever before, uncovering more scientific discoveries, and preparing for future astronaut missions to Mars.Blue Origin will design, develop, test, and verify its Blue Moon lander to meet NASA’s human landing system requirements for recurring astronaut expeditions to the lunar surface, including docking with Gateway, a space station where crew transfer in lunar orbit. In addition to design and development work, the contract includes one uncrewed demonstration mission to the lunar surface before a crewed demo on the Artemis V mission in 2029. The total award value of the firm-fixed price contract is $3.4 billion.“Today we are excited to announce Blue Origin will build a human landing system as NASA’s second provider to deliver Artemis astronauts to the lunar surface,” said NASA Administrator Bill Nelson. “We are in a golden age of human spaceflight, which is made possible by NASA’s commercial and international partnerships. Together, we are making an investment in the infrastructure that will pave the way to land the first astronauts on Mars.”For the Artemis V mission, NASA’s SLS (Space Launch System) rocket will launch four astronauts to lunar orbit aboard the Orion spacecraft. Once Orion docks with Gateway, two astronauts will transfer to Blue Origin’s human landing system for about a weeklong trip to the Moon’s South Pole region where they will conduct science and exploration activities. Artemis V is at the intersection of demonstrating NASA’s initial lunar exploration capabilities and establishing the foundational systems to support recurring complex missions in lunar orbit and on the surface as part of the agency’s Moon to Mars exploration approach.Adding another human landing system partner to NASA’s Artemis program will increase competition, reduce costs to taxpayers, support a regular cadence of lunar landings, further invest in the lunar economy, and help NASA achieve its goals on and around the Moon in preparation for future astronaut missions to Mars. The agency previously contracted SpaceX to demonstrate an initial human landing system for the Artemis III mission. Under that contract, the agency also directed SpaceX to evolve its design to meet the agency’s requirements for sustainable exploration and to demonstrate the lander on Artemis IV. As a result of the contract with Blue Origin to demonstrate on Artemis V a lander that meets these same sustainable lander requirements, including capabilities for increased crew size, longer mission duration, and delivery of more mass to the Moon, multiple providers will be available to compete for future opportunities to fulfill NASA’s lunar surface access needs for Artemis missions.By supporting industry’s development of innovative human landing system concepts and designs, NASA will help increase access to space for the benefit of all. “Having two distinct lunar lander designs, with different approaches to how they meet NASA's mission needs, provides more robustness and ensures a regular cadence of Moon landings,” said Lisa Watson-Morgan, manager, Human Landing System Program at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. “This competitive approach drives innovation, brings down costs, and invests in commercial capabilities to grow the business opportunities that can serve other customers and foster a lunar economy.”NASA issued the solicitation, known as Appendix P, of its second Next Space Technologies for Exploration Partnerships Broad Agency Announcement (Next-STEP2 BAA), in September 2022 as part of the ongoing development of advanced space exploration technologies, capabilities, and concepts.Through Artemis, NASA will send astronauts – including the first woman and first person of color – to explore the Moon for scientific discovery, economic benefits, and to build the foundation for crewed missions to Mars. Together, the SLS rocket, Orion, Gateway, advanced spacesuits, and human landing systems are NASA’s foundation for deep space exploration.For more information about the human landing system, visit:https://go.nasa.gov/45fK6qY-end-
May 19, 2023RELEASE 23-056NASA Selects Blue Origin as Second Artemis Lunar Lander ProviderTo develop a human landing system for the agency’s Artemis V mission to the Moon, NASA has selected Blue Origin of Kent, Washington. Through Artemis, NASA will explore more of the Moon than ever before, uncovering more scientific discoveries, and preparing for future astronaut missions to Mars.Blue Origin will design, develop, test, and verify its Blue Moon lander to meet NASA’s human landing system requirements for recurring astronaut expeditions to the lunar surface, including docking with Gateway, a space station where crew transfer in lunar orbit. In addition to design and development work, the contract includes one uncrewed demonstration mission to the lunar surface before a crewed demo on the Artemis V mission in 2029. The total award value of the firm-fixed price contract is $3.4 billion.“Today we are excited to announce Blue Origin will build a human landing system as NASA’s second provider to deliver Artemis astronauts to the lunar surface,” said NASA Administrator Bill Nelson. “We are in a golden age of human spaceflight, which is made possible by NASA’s commercial and international partnerships. Together, we are making an investment in the infrastructure that will pave the way to land the first astronauts on Mars.”For the Artemis V mission, NASA’s SLS (Space Launch System) rocket will launch four astronauts to lunar orbit aboard the Orion spacecraft. Once Orion docks with Gateway, two astronauts will transfer to Blue Origin’s human landing system for about a weeklong trip to the Moon’s South Pole region where they will conduct science and exploration activities. Artemis V is at the intersection of demonstrating NASA’s initial lunar exploration capabilities and establishing the foundational systems to support recurring complex missions in lunar orbit and on the surface as part of the agency’s Moon to Mars exploration approach.Adding another human landing system partner to NASA’s Artemis program will increase competition, reduce costs to taxpayers, support a regular cadence of lunar landings, further invest in the lunar economy, and help NASA achieve its goals on and around the Moon in preparation for future astronaut missions to Mars. The agency previously contracted SpaceX to demonstrate an initial human landing system for the Artemis III mission. Under that contract, the agency also directed SpaceX to evolve its design to meet the agency’s requirements for sustainable exploration and to demonstrate the lander on Artemis IV. As a result of the contract with Blue Origin to demonstrate on Artemis V a lander that meets these same sustainable lander requirements, including capabilities for increased crew size, longer mission duration, and delivery of more mass to the Moon, multiple providers will be available to compete for future opportunities to fulfill NASA’s lunar surface access needs for Artemis missions.By supporting industry’s development of innovative human landing system concepts and designs, NASA will help increase access to space for the benefit of all. “Having two distinct lunar lander designs, with different approaches to how they meet NASA's mission needs, provides more robustness and ensures a regular cadence of Moon landings,” said Lisa Watson-Morgan, manager, Human Landing System Program at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. “This competitive approach drives innovation, brings down costs, and invests in commercial capabilities to grow the business opportunities that can serve other customers and foster a lunar economy.”NASA issued the solicitation, known as Appendix P, of its second Next Space Technologies for Exploration Partnerships Broad Agency Announcement (Next-STEP2 BAA), in September 2022 as part of the ongoing development of advanced space exploration technologies, capabilities, and concepts.Through Artemis, NASA will send astronauts – including the first woman and first person of color – to explore the Moon for scientific discovery, economic benefits, and to build the foundation for crewed missions to Mars. Together, the SLS rocket, Orion, Gateway, advanced spacesuits, and human landing systems are NASA’s foundation for deep space exploration.For more information about the human landing system, visit:https://go.nasa.gov/45fK6qY-end-
NASA contract selection statement has been posted:https://sam.gov/opp/f8bd8dc0d4d346cc853b2185bde0a27d/view(copy attached)
On April 10, 2023, I determined that it would be in the Agency’s best interests to make an award without conducting discussions or post-selection negotiations. This decision was based on my assessment that Blue Origin’s proposal is the one that is the most advantageous to the Agency across all evaluation factors, and that best aligns with the objectives set forth in this solicitation.
A. Blue Origin [...]Blue Origin plans to fund and execute pathfinder lander missions in 2024 and 2025, to land on the Moon to mature several critical, low TRL technologies three years before the Sustaining Lunar Development (SLD) uncrewed demonstration mission by demonstrating lunar lander components, subsystem designs, and system behaviors. Another unique and highly advantageous aspect that I note in Blue Origin’s technical approach is the plan to burn down risk associated with the crewed demonstration mission by using a fully integrated flight configuration of all systems for the Uncrewed Flight Test (UFT), which is conducted before the crewed demonstration mission. The success criteria for the UFT that are identified in the Statement of Work (SOW) only include a landing test to the lunar surface with a demonstration of precision landing capabilities. However, the UFT being proposed by Blue Origin will also demonstrate critical lander systems that will be at play during the crewed demonstration mission (i.e., thermal and fluid characterization of cryogenics, lunar surface storage, Environmental Control and Life Support System (ECLSS), reignition of the engines after surface stay, and the autonomous ascent burn and Non-Rectilinear Halo Orbit (NRHO) return). Early demonstration of the crewed lander, through all mission phases, allows lander systems to be exercised in the environments they are expected to operate in during the crewed demonstration mission. Thus, I find that using a fully matured crewed lander configuration for the UFT is another compelling aspect of the technical proposal — it is a significant strength that is highly advantageous to NASA because it will decrease risk to the crewed demonstration mission.
Blue Origin’s management proposal discusses a corporate support and business approach that I consider to be of particular importance in helping NASA further its interests in the future commercialization of space. It is a significant strength of the proposal. Blue Origin’s architecture supports market expansions above and beyond the Appendix P mission of the Lunar Cargo Delivery Service, In-Space Transportation services, and Refueling markets by expanding the space economy through Blue Origin’s availability of its commercial lander capabilities to international agencies, other Government customers, and private astronauts. I also find that reusability is a promising key future characteristic within Blue Origin’s architecture and business approach, which will greatly benefit the Government in the future by enabling long-term affordability, reducing crew safety risks by having multiple landers available, and/or delivering multiple cargo missions without disposal. When coupled with Blue Origin’s plans for a reusable New Glenn launch vehicle, the proposal demonstrates a strong commitment to future cost reductions and increasing the customer base with emerging markets. A path to sustainability is also addressed within Blue Origin’s business approach and it shows NASA that up-front design considerations are being studied and acted upon. Examples include the plan to launch duplicate landers for the 2027 uncrewed flight test and 2028 crewed demonstration missions and their ability to loiter in Near Rectilinear Halo Orbit (NRHO) exceeding NASA’s requirements. This approach provides additional avenues for potential reuse and/or as a backup capability to protect against the unknown. Blue Origin’s proposed corporate contributions demonstrate a significant investment in the SLD development efforts and future business capabilities to mature emerging space economies. This public-private partnership investment will greatly benefit the Government by reducing overall prices and enabling other segments of the Artemis Program.
Price Assessment [...] the SEP calculated the Total Evaluated Price for Blue Origin as $3,419,345,052.35, and the evaluation concluded that this amount was reasonable and balanced.
B. Dynetics [...]Reusability is incorporated incrementally in future missions, which may minimize future mission costs. Also, offering design considerations for reuse capability shows an integrated and effective approach to meet future requirements and functionality. Overall, Dynetics’ Business Approach is a strength to the proposal and increases the potential for cost-effective recurring lunar transportation services for Artemis missions, as well as non-NASA missions that will allow commercial opportunities to continue to develop. Dynetics’ technical approach presents uncertainty whether it meets the 4-crew Appendix P requirements for NASA DRM-H-002 (Polar Excursion Sortie), stating that it did not account for Appendix P utilization cargo and the Exploration Extravehicular Activity (xEVA) suit, and further stating that revisions to the current design or the necessity for a different CM design for NASA DRM-H-002 could result in cost and schedule impacts. I am highly concerned with this aspect of the proposal and consider it to be a significant weakness because it is unclear whether the proposed CM design meets the requirements of the solicitation.
Price Assessment [...] it was substantially higher in amount than the competing proposal.
VI. Selection Determination [...]This analysis leads me to the conclusion that Blue Origin’s proposal is the most advantageous to the Agency across all evaluation factors, and it aligns with the objectives of the solicitation. Specifically, after duly considering the merits and drawbacks of all findings for the proposals, I conclude that the Blue Origin proposal provides abundant value for NASA at its Total Evaluated Price. Also, it provides the least risky and most advantageous technical and management approaches for meeting NASA’s HLS SLD requirements and schedule, and these features are offered at a substantially lower price. Dynetics’ proposal does not provide the same value for NASA due to the increased risk associated with its technical approach and less advantageous management approach and price. Therefore, I select Blue Origin’s proposal for a single Appendix P, HLS SLD contract.This Appendix P selection represents a critical step in our return to the Moon. The Moon is uniquely suited to prepare us, and propel us, to Mars and beyond. The next chapter in human spaceflight exploration is upon us. With this award, we take another step closer in going to the Moon, and we go to stay.
