Author Topic: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6  (Read 721018 times)

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #240 on: 10/31/2017 06:15 pm »
FWIW, it isn't a "commercial revenue" coming from government co-investment issue.

This was settled a looong time ago.

Want you to think of what happens when anything that government might use, say 1-4 times per year, is exclusively used by government? Its like say 39A ... they have to pay 100%, every year, for upkeep/liability/etc.

Now lets say you did proportional use as a charge back? Well, then all the commercial users would be forced to the governments extremely high costing, pushing it out of commercial's "price point". Result, only government uses it, and costs zoom up again.

Best way to look at it from the government perspective is that they have a reserve capacity they can call up on short notice, free upkeep, and some else keeping up proficiency in using the equipment. A sweet deal. If actually used.

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #241 on: 11/01/2017 02:10 am »
A nice photo of the 2 dishes, from this link.

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #242 on: 11/01/2017 02:17 am »
Here's an article that suggests how BFR may launch from Boca Chica:

http://us.blastingnews.com/news/2017/10/spacexs-gwynne-shotwell-reveals-more-details-about-the-bfr-002085099.html
Quote
Shotwell did not provide any detail about how the Boca Chica spaceport would handle BFR launches and landings, whether they would be from land or, as some illustrations suggest, from an offshore platform.

Texas has plenty of firms with expertise in building offshore platforms. Launching from offshore would likely avoid the issue of beach closures that land launches have entailed.

Just as an added note, the folks developing the Texas Hyperloop might want to consider a new branch of the line between Houston and Boca Chica. If the SpaceX facility is going to be the commercial gateway to Mars and the moon, it should generate plenty of traffic.

Another idea would be to make Boca Chica one of the places where the suborbital BFR takes off and lands as it takes people and cargo to points halfway around the world. All in all, the growth such a facility would give to nearby Brownsville could be staggering. As predicted in a previous piece, the first person to land on Mars or even the first person back to the moon may wind up leaving Earth from Texas.

When the author of this article discusses an offshore platform, he does not imply a fully offshore launch site, and he does not imply a floating platform like ASDS or Sea Launch.

Rather, he implies a space launch complex that's partly on land, and partly in the Gulf.

In other words, this implies a fixed platform with underwater legs that physically connect it to the ocean floor.  The Gulf of Mexico is only 72 feet deep 5 miles offshore from Boca Chica Beach.  This also implies a lot of buildings and other infrastructure (e.g. antenna dishes) at Boca Chica Village, and more infrastructure (e.g. water tower and propellant tanks) at Boca Chica Beach, with electrical cables, fiber-optics, and flexible pipes running underwater to the offshore pad.

And as the author suggests, such an arrangement could have huge implications for the Brownsville area, especially if they launch BFR sub-orbital passenger flights from Boca Chica to other destinations across the world and back.  That scenario would also imply a lot of construction in and around Boca Chica Village, to the point where SpaceX may want to keep a large construction crane there long-term, with a permanent structure to house it.
« Last Edit: 11/01/2017 04:30 am by Dave G »

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #243 on: 11/01/2017 03:22 am »
There is also little substance to the oft-repeated claim that BFR will be "way over the permissible sound limits".  One analysis early in this thread showed "twice as loud"... that's 3db. 

If it's going offshore they might as well go 20 miles out and reduce the noise issues. BFR is going to be breaking windows 5-10 miles away on a regular basis if they launch frequently.

Two opposite opinions.  I'm somewhere in the middle.

Offline SPITexas

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #244 on: 11/01/2017 04:48 am »
Here's an article that suggests how BFR may launch from Boca Chica:

http://us.blastingnews.com/news/2017/10/spacexs-gwynne-shotwell-reveals-more-details-about-the-bfr-002085099.html
Quote
Shotwell did not provide any detail about how the Boca Chica spaceport would handle BFR launches and landings, whether they would be from land or, as some illustrations suggest, from an offshore platform.

Texas has plenty of firms with expertise in building offshore platforms. Launching from offshore drillingwould likely avoid the issue of beach closures that land launches have entailed.

Just as an added note, the folks developing the Texas Hyperloop might want to consider a new branch of the line between Houston and Boca Chica. If the SpaceX facility is going to be the commercial gateway to Mars and the moon, it should generate plenty of traffic.

Another idea would be to make Boca Chica one of the places where the suborbital BFR takes off and lands as it takes people and cargo to points halfway around the world. All in all, the growth such a facility would give to nearby Brownsville could be staggering. As predicted in a previous piece, the first person to land on Mars or even the first person back to the moon may wind up leaving Earth from Texas.

When the author of this article discusses an offshore platform, he does not imply a fully offshore launch site, and he does not imply a floating platform like ASDS or Sea Launch.

Rather, he implies a space launch complex that's partly on land, and partly in the Gulf.

In other words, this implies a fixed platform with underwater legs that physically connect it to the ocean floor.  The Gulf of Mexico is only 72 feet deep 5 miles offshore from Boca Chica Beach.  This also implies a lot of buildings and other infrastructure (e.g. antenna dishes) at Boca Chica Village, and more infrastructure (e.g. water tower and propellant tanks) at Boca Chica Beach, with electrical cables, fiber-optics, and flexible pipes running underwater to the offshore pad.

And as the author suggests, such an arrangement could have huge implications for the Brownsville area, especially if they launch BFR sub-orbital passenger flights from Boca Chica to other destinations across the world and back.  That scenario would also imply a lot of construction in and around Boca Chica Village, to the point where SpaceX may want to keep a large construction crane there long-term, with a permanent structure to house it.


I agree with your opinion which SpaceX have stated about 3 Times this year  they might launch the BFR from Boca Chica,  I would guess a launch pad on land for the F9 and FH and a offshore platform shown on Sept 29th by Elon Musk.   It’s pretty clear they might not choose LC-39A for the BFR because it’s too big still for it.  SpaceX building its site from scratch makes more sense for the BFR than LC-39A.  If I where Them I would pick Boca Chica for the BFR.

Offline envy887

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #245 on: 11/01/2017 10:39 am »
There is also little substance to the oft-repeated claim that BFR will be "way over the permissible sound limits".  One analysis early in this thread showed "twice as loud"... that's 3db. 

If it's going offshore they might as well go 20 miles out and reduce the noise issues. BFR is going to be breaking windows 5-10 miles away on a regular basis if they launch frequently.

Two opposite opinions.  I'm somewhere in the middle.

Cscott is referring to audible noise, while I was referring to the full spectrum which causes more structural damage. I don't think audible noise will be a major issue.

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #246 on: 11/01/2017 11:36 am »
Cscott is referring to audible noise, while I was referring to the full spectrum which causes more structural damage. I don't think audible noise will be a major issue.

Good point.

From what I understand, it's the low frequency sound waves that crack foundations and break windows.

I'm not an acoustics expert, but intuition would suggest that a much larger, much heavier rocket would produce a lot more low frequency audio, even if the overall sound level is only twice as loud.

Also, while they have many techniques to suppress normal sound frequencies, in my experience, very low sound frequencies just go everywhere, no matter what you do.

Offline SPITexas

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #247 on: 11/01/2017 11:56 am »
http://www.krgv.com/story/36728029/spacex-installs-2nd-antenna-at-boca-chica-beach

Very short article finally KRGV gives a update “SpaceX spokesman says launches will begin in 2018” honestly I can take late 2018 and 2019 for its first launches. Anytime.

Offline StuffOfInterest

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #248 on: 11/01/2017 12:11 pm »
http://www.krgv.com/story/36728029/spacex-installs-2nd-antenna-at-boca-chica-beach

Very short article finally KRGV gives a update “SpaceX spokesman says launches will begin in 2018” honestly I can take late 2018 and 2019 for its first launches. Anytime.

I believe the 2018 quote refers to crewed Dragon launches, not Boca Chica launches.  Your quote leaves a bit of ambiguity there.

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #249 on: 11/01/2017 02:03 pm »
About the low frequency noise, how does BFR having 31 small engines rather than 7 or so larger engines effect the frequency and volume of noise produced? Is total thrust the only factor?

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #250 on: 11/01/2017 04:26 pm »
About the low frequency noise, how does BFR having 31 small engines rather than 7 or so larger engines effect the frequency and volume of noise produced? Is total thrust the only factor?

As a guess, it may not be the total thrust, but rather the weight of the rocket pressing against the ground through that total thrust at liftoff, and the weight of the rocket pressing against the air after liftoff.

In general, I would think more weight would produce more lower frequency sound waves.

But again, I'm not an acoustics expert, so it's just a guess.

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #251 on: 11/01/2017 04:30 pm »
http://www.krgv.com/story/36728029/spacex-installs-2nd-antenna-at-boca-chica-beach

Very short article finally KRGV gives a update “SpaceX spokesman says launches will begin in 2018” honestly I can take late 2018 and 2019 for its first launches. Anytime.

From the article you link:
"The antennas will be used to track Crew Dragon missions to the International Space Center (sic).
A Space X spokeswoman said launches should begin in 2018."

So as  StuffOfInterest suggests, the article implies that Crew Dragon launches from Florida will begin in 2018.

[edit]
To further clarify, this article says:
"SpaceX has finished installing a second ground station antenna at its future Boca Chica spaceport for the purpose of tracking Crew Dragon missions to the International Space Station beginning in 2018."

[edit2] change "the cape" to Florida
« Last Edit: 11/01/2017 09:09 pm by Dave G »

Offline SPITexas

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #252 on: 11/01/2017 04:39 pm »
http://www.krgv.com/story/36728029/spacex-installs-2nd-antenna-at-boca-chica-beach

Very short article finally KRGV gives a update “SpaceX spokesman says launches will begin in 2018” honestly I can take late 2018 and 2019 for its first launches. Anytime.

From the article you link:
"The antennas will be used to track Crew Dragon missions to the International Space Center (sic).
A Space X spokeswoman said launches should begin in 2018."


So as  StuffOfInterest suggests, the article implies that Crew Dragon launches from the cape will begin in 2018.

I knew something about that felt wrong, Crewed dragon launches from LC-40 Cape Canaveral? I thought they planned to fly from
LC-39A KSC?

Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #253 on: 11/01/2017 04:57 pm »
Journalists are sloppy with CCAFS vs KSC, I don't think one should read LC-40 into any of these remarks (I didn't read the article)....
"I think it would be great to be born on Earth and to die on Mars. Just hopefully not at the point of impact." -Elon Musk
"We're a little bit like the dog who caught the bus" - Musk after CRS-8 S1 successfully landed on ASDS OCISLY

Offline watermod

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #254 on: 11/01/2017 05:25 pm »
The offshore BFR discussion got me wondering.   The BRF first stage lands back on the same pad it launches from so does that mean each BFR rocket will need a dedicate launch pad on a 1:1 basis?

Offline StuffOfInterest

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #255 on: 11/01/2017 05:32 pm »
The offshore BFR discussion got me wondering.   The BRF first stage lands back on the same pad it launches from so does that mean each BFR rocket will need a dedicate launch pad on a 1:1 basis?

I would presume that a BFC* would be able to lift the booster off of its mount and drop it on a transporter to be removed for servicing or repairs and then lift a fresh booster onto the mount.  The crane is already needed for lifting the BFS on top of the BFR and I imagine it would have the lift capacity to handle the booster as well.  Somewhere near by there should be a BFH+ with room for two or three BFR and BFS undergoing servicing.

If an offshore platform is used at Boca Chica, it will probably make more sense for the hangar to be over at the ship channel instead of near the control center as there won't be an easy way to get the BFR or BFS off of a transporter and onto shore in Boca Chica.

*  Big F? Crane
+ Big F? Hangar
« Last Edit: 11/01/2017 05:40 pm by StuffOfInterest »

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #256 on: 11/01/2017 09:22 pm »
*  Big F? Crane
+ Big F? Hangar
lol

If an offshore platform is used at Boca Chica, it will probably make more sense for the hangar to be over at the ship channel instead of near the control center...
I agree.  And for BFR comsat missions, they may need to locate payload processing facilities there as well.

They could also build BFR there.  Elon spoke about building BFR near the Texas launch site back in 2013. Last month at Stanford, Gwynne Shotwell also confirmed that was the long-term plan.

In any case, transporting BFR over water solves a lot of issues.

Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #257 on: 11/02/2017 11:39 am »
Big Falcon Rocket
Big Falcon Crane
Big Falcon Hanger

Gwynne has been quite clear (although Elon mischievously likes to preserve the ambiguity).

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #258 on: 11/02/2017 12:30 pm »
Big Falcon Rocket
Big Falcon Crane
Big Falcon Hanger
Gwynne has been quite clear (although Elon mischievously likes to preserve the ambiguity).

I think either works, depending on the audience.

But Elon's been quite clear how the name came about.  Here's what he said to GQ magazine in Oct 2015:
https://www.gq.com/story/elon-musk-mars-spacex-tesla-interview
Quote
The rocket that they are working on is referred to internally by the code name BFR. And it doesn't stand for some arcane, smarty-pants science term. It stands for Big frakking Rocket.

I ask Musk whether he really calls it that; his answer is both delightfully nerdy, and not.

"Well, there's two parts of it—there's a booster rocket and there's a spaceship...  So, technically, it would be the BFR and the BFS." As in "Big frakking Spaceship."

Musk coined these names himself. "This is a very obtuse video-game reference," he tells me. "In the original Doom, the gun that was like the crazy gun was the BFG 9000 or something like that. So it was sort of named after the gun in Doom. But that's not its official name, of course."

Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 6
« Reply #259 on: 11/02/2017 12:48 pm »
Yes, yes, we know where the name came from.  But that's not the official name of the rocket.

We just had this discussion, let's not repeat it.
I've never understood why folks designated some other F-word to the letter 'F'.
Probably because it's more of a "Pterodactyl in size" relative to the Falcon... ;D

I think the joke is that the 'official' name is Big Falcon Rocket, but it can also be taken (by Elon in particular) as standing for Big F*****g Rocket.

The ambiguity is purposeful. No big deal.


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