on that note O2, CH4, H2O, H2 are all fine but where is all the bio aviable N2 (in the form of NH3 or NO3-salts) coming from? the atmosphere barely contains CO2 if anything, usually you can't find it rock formations..so where to get it from? (and you would need lots for chemistry and especially agroculture)
I think the availability of N2 in the Martian atmosphere is one of the greatest selling point of the planet.Does anyone know anything about small local fertilizer plants? I'm hoping there is a market for local production of NH3 for fertilizer, possibly using some other technology than the Haber process that could serve as a precursor for a Martian production system of NH3.Bioreactors fixing nitrogen directly into 'soil' in large volumes would be nice, perhaps, if the bug don't need overly exotic foods...Otherwise a mini Haber process plant would have to do.
Plasma activated water nitrate synthesis is possible though.
Awesome thread.Under Calcium Carbonate, I was expecting to see "Cement" as a product.-------I think Si should be on the short list.......
Quote from: meekGee on 03/05/2017 05:24 amAwesome thread.Under Calcium Carbonate, I was expecting to see "Cement" as a product.-------I think Si should be on the short list.......I also think silicon will be a valuable material. I probably would put it on a priority list of (solid) minerals to develop, rather than here, just because the paper addresses pressure vessels to be employed in industry, which generally means liquids and gases.I will see if cement was mentioned by CICE, which is the source of the priority list. Remember, though, that regular water-based cementitious products won't work on Mars because the water will sublimate faster than the cement can cure, according to industrial sources.Edited: grammar
Quote from: Ionmars on 03/05/2017 09:49 pmQuote from: meekGee on 03/05/2017 05:24 amUnder Calcium Carbonate, I was expecting to see "Cement" as a product.I will see if cement was mentioned by CICE, which is the source of the priority list. Remember, though, that regular water-based cementitious products won't work on Mars because the water will sublimate faster than the cement can cure, according to industrial sources.Yes, that makes sense. A lot of construction might occur under pressure though, plus I am not sure you can solve the sublimation problem.
Quote from: meekGee on 03/05/2017 05:24 amUnder Calcium Carbonate, I was expecting to see "Cement" as a product.I will see if cement was mentioned by CICE, which is the source of the priority list. Remember, though, that regular water-based cementitious products won't work on Mars because the water will sublimate faster than the cement can cure, according to industrial sources.
Under Calcium Carbonate, I was expecting to see "Cement" as a product.
Quote from: meekGee on 03/05/2017 10:07 pmQuote from: Ionmars on 03/05/2017 09:49 pmQuote from: meekGee on 03/05/2017 05:24 amUnder Calcium Carbonate, I was expecting to see "Cement" as a product.I will see if cement was mentioned by CICE, which is the source of the priority list. Remember, though, that regular water-based cementitious products won't work on Mars because the water will sublimate faster than the cement can cure, according to industrial sources.Yes, that makes sense. A lot of construction might occur under pressure though, plus I am not sure you can solve the sublimation problem.Water evaporates, ice sublimates! In order for the cement to cure, liquid water needs to react with the calcium oxide in the cement, and the whole process takes well over a day. So, apart from the water evaporating (boiling?) in the low atmospheric pressure, it also rapidly freezes in the low temperatures, stopping the curing process. You could no doubt overcome both problems with temporary pressure and heating, but it adds to the effort required. Plus, water has a lot of other valuable uses on Mars.There have been experiments with using liquid sulfur as the binding agent to make concrete (arXiv paper) with promising results. The main problem is that it's flammable, though this doesn't matter for most purposes on Mars. Presumably, a module for the production of sulfur would come in handy!
We had the concrete discussion on Mars threads and on the Amazing Martian Habitats threads. There is Marscrete, that solves all these problems, with materials easier sourced than our cement based concrete and less energy to produce.
I would love to see a draft of this, happy to sign NDA, realise it's probably way too late for any suggestions, but just wanted to post that.......AND that I think it's amazingly awesome that a web based resource like this (originally a bunch of shuttle huggers) is actually facilitating submission of meaningful scientific papers.
Quote from: lamontagne on 03/05/2017 12:26 amI think the availability of N2 in the Martian atmosphere is one of the greatest selling point of the planet.Does anyone know anything about small local fertilizer plants? I'm hoping there is a market for local production of NH3 for fertilizer, possibly using some other technology than the Haber process that could serve as a precursor for a Martian production system of NH3.Bioreactors fixing nitrogen directly into 'soil' in large volumes would be nice, perhaps, if the bug don't need overly exotic foods...Otherwise a mini Haber process plant would have to do.NSF member sghill is running a company that develops such a system. Suitable for farmers to produce their own nitrogen fertilizer instead of buying it from industry using the Haber Bosch process.QuotePlasma activated water [PAW] nitrate synthesis is possible though.
Plasma activated water [PAW] nitrate synthesis is possible though.