Author Topic: Propellant Depots - General Discussion  (Read 452965 times)

Offline nadreck

Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1000 on: 08/15/2015 10:21 pm »
I'm not sure who has been dismissive of Kourou.

There have been only two commercial launch operators using equatorial launch sites, Arianespace and Sea Launch. Zenit's GTO payload was considerable increased by equatorial launch but they're currently out of the game for reasons other than performance.

Which leaves Ariane. Although Arianespace have been very successful, their equatorial advantage has not put them beyond the reach of other competitors, as SpaceX has shown. And what other launch provider has said, "Look at Arianespace's performance advantage, we must build an equatorial launch pad somewhere to compete?" Only Sea Launch. (And it's not clear if their marine infrastructure was cheaper than a comparative land based equivalent.) Not SpaceX (who briefly considered Omalek), not ULA....

Actually, this point about equatorial launch costs is slightly OT, because it is irrelevant whether depots are used or not. It comes down to whether it is financially worthwhile for launch providers to build new equatorial launch sites for performance gain only, for whatever the operational purpose. I don't believe it is for several reasons. Jon Goff gave one of them upthread.

Edit: added "commercial."

Now you are being dismissive of Kourou, why would anyone have to build a new equatorial launch site, Kourou can have more pads developed. Currently several vehicles launch from there.
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

Offline sdsds

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1001 on: 08/16/2015 04:42 am »
Umm...  ESA pays CNES something like €435 million for 5 years use of CSG.
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Launchers/ESA_and_CNES_sign_contract_on_Guiana_Space_Centre_CSG
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Offline douglas100

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1002 on: 08/17/2015 08:36 am »

Now you are being dismissive of Kourou, why would anyone have to build a new equatorial launch site, Kourou can have more pads developed. Currently several vehicles launch from there.

Yep, Ariane 5, Soyuz ST and Vega. All operated by...guess who?

The answer to your question is politics. The French government will not allow any competitor to Arianespace  to operate from their territory.

If we are talking about a non commercial international collaboration like ISS involving depots (like maybe human lunar exploration) then the depot will be at an inclination suitable to the partners. It won't be equatorial because in the real messy world of compromise and trades, the small gain in performance in launching from the equator is offset by other factors.

And I misunderstood what you meant by "dismissing" Kourou. I thought you meant folks were criticising Korou as a good launch site in general (which it is.) But I am most certainly dismissing it in the sense you meant.
 



Douglas Clark

Offline nadreck

Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1003 on: 08/17/2015 07:59 pm »

Now you are being dismissive of Kourou, why would anyone have to build a new equatorial launch site, Kourou can have more pads developed. Currently several vehicles launch from there.

Yep, Ariane 5, Soyuz ST and Vega. All operated by...guess who?

The answer to your question is politics. The French government will not allow any competitor to Arianespace  to operate from their territory.

If we are talking about a non commercial international collaboration like ISS involving depots (like maybe human lunar exploration) then the depot will be at an inclination suitable to the partners. It won't be equatorial because in the real messy world of compromise and trades, the small gain in performance in launching from the equator is offset by other factors.

And I misunderstood what you meant by "dismissing" Kourou. I thought you meant folks were criticising Korou as a good launch site in general (which it is.) But I am most certainly dismissing it in the sense you meant.


To me the advantage of using Kourou for a launch site outweighs the political issues. If we presume that Arianespace works with Soyuz, they could work with any other launch vehicle, and if they could turn the location advantage to their advantage having an equatorial depot themselves or co-operating with another agency or company that has one but wants to share it for the access advantage from Kourou it certainly could happen.
It is all well and good to quote those things that made it past your confirmation bias that other people wrote, but this is a discussion board damnit! Let us know what you think! And why!

Offline savuporo

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1004 on: 10/21/2015 10:30 pm »
It looks like ISS expedition 45/46 is going to get a microgravity glovebox experiment called ZBOT-1, aka Zero Boil-Off Tank. From what i understand it should be on near term cargo manifest already.

ZBOT is scheduled to launch on CRS-8 ( i.e. sometime in 2016~ish )

http://www.spacestationresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/ZIN-ZBOT-Summary.pdf

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Offline MP99

Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1005 on: 10/23/2015 07:58 am »


A depot orbiting the Earth in the plane of the ecliptic, with an inclination of 23.5 degrees will not stay in the ecliptic plane. Although it will remain at that inclination, the orbit will slowly precess out of the ecliptic plane. I think there is little to be gained by using such an orbit.

What would cause that precession?

Cheers, Martin

Offline douglas100

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1006 on: 10/23/2015 08:54 am »
The oblateness of the Earth. The same effect causes sun synchronous orbits to precess in such a way that the orbital plane remains fixed relative to the Sun-Earth direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodal_precession
Douglas Clark

Offline MP99

Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1007 on: 10/23/2015 09:47 pm »
OK, thanks.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1008 on: 10/26/2015 12:17 am »
Um.... The orbit of Mars is not in the plane of the ecliptic. So direct-to-Mars injection points can end up far from the plane of the ecliptic too. Did you read what douglas100 wrote upthread, "[...] parking orbits with inclinations up to 52 degrees (Mars Odyssey)?" (See http://www.astronautix.com/craft/maryssey.htm#chrono for corroboration.)

But this whole notion of direct-LEO-to-Mars injection doesn't really play well with the theme of depots. If you have a propulsion system that can stop along the way and refuel, why take advantage of that only once during the trip?
Agreed. Or at least, agreed that LEO-to-Mars makes a lot less sense than some high-Earth/cislunar-orbit-to-Mars.

Gather propellant in LEO launched by RLVs, then use SEP to push that propellant to a depot in some high energy orbit. That allows you to cheaply get to Mars quickly.
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Offline savuporo

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1009 on: 04/14/2016 06:00 pm »
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1010 on: 04/15/2016 01:03 am »
The New Shepard should offer larger scale testing of LH and LOX transfers without expense of going to orbit.

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Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1011 on: 04/18/2016 02:43 pm »
The New Shepard should offer larger scale testing of LH and LOX transfers without expense of going to orbit.

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That would imply that if done BO would develop a fuel transfer capable US for their orbital LV system. That would also imply that that BO would develop a LEO LOX/LH2 depot. So far there has been no information or hints that BO has any such intentions.

But maybe someone should point out to them what this tech could do for their transportation system.

Offline GWH

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1012 on: 04/18/2016 03:00 pm »
....Or it could just be a science payload that BO hosts for a paying customer.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1013 on: 04/18/2016 05:35 pm »
The New Shepard should offer larger scale testing of LH and LOX transfers without expense of going to orbit.

Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 6030X using Tapatalk
That would imply that if done BO would develop a fuel transfer capable US for their orbital LV system. That would also imply that that BO would develop a LEO LOX/LH2 depot. So far there has been no information or hints that BO has any such intentions.

But maybe someone should point out to them what this tech could do for their transportation system.
I was think payload experiment in capsule, that can use >100kg fuel.


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Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1015 on: 05/04/2016 11:07 pm »
Altius cryogenic coupler for fuel transfer.

http://sbir.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts/16/sbir/phase1/SBIR-16-1-H2.04-8454.html

In Phase I, Altius and its team will focus on developing and testing a proof-of-concept of this innovative new cryogenic sealing architecture, including performing insertion/extraction and leak testing, to compare with a more traditional spring-energized polymer seal concept. Altius will then update the coupling design based on lessons learned-from these tests, raising the TRL from 2 to 3 at the end of Phase I.

Offline savuporo

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1016 on: 09/18/2016 12:32 am »
Just to note, the number of propellant depots in LEO went from 1 to 2 a few days ago. One operational, one prototype.

It probably looks and works very similar to the one described here
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Offline Lar

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1017 on: 01/19/2017 05:42 pm »
Crosslinking for reference:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40815.msg1631777#msg1631777 and the next few posts have information on the ZBOT experiment to be flown shortly.

NASA link on ZBOT

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/1270.html
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Offline jongoff

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1018 on: 01/19/2017 06:12 pm »
Altius cryogenic coupler for fuel transfer.

http://sbir.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts/16/sbir/phase1/SBIR-16-1-H2.04-8454.html

In Phase I, Altius and its team will focus on developing and testing a proof-of-concept of this innovative new cryogenic sealing architecture, including performing insertion/extraction and leak testing, to compare with a more traditional spring-energized polymer seal concept. Altius will then update the coupling design based on lessons learned-from these tests, raising the TRL from 2 to 3 at the end of Phase I.

I just saw this from mid last year. The Phase I went pretty well, and we have a Phase II proposal in for evaluation. We won't know if we have the Phase II until mid-March. If we win the Phase II, but if we do get it, it will be an important step in making upper stages for several launch vehicles inherently refuelable.

~Jon

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Propellant Depots - General Discussion
« Reply #1019 on: 01/19/2017 06:37 pm »
Altius cryogenic coupler for fuel transfer.

http://sbir.nasa.gov/SBIR/abstracts/16/sbir/phase1/SBIR-16-1-H2.04-8454.html

In Phase I, Altius and its team will focus on developing and testing a proof-of-concept of this innovative new cryogenic sealing architecture, including performing insertion/extraction and leak testing, to compare with a more traditional spring-energized polymer seal concept. Altius will then update the coupling design based on lessons learned-from these tests, raising the TRL from 2 to 3 at the end of Phase I.


I just saw this from mid last year. The Phase I went pretty well, and we have a Phase II proposal in for evaluation. We won't know if we have the Phase II until mid-March. If we win the Phase II, but if we do get it, it will be an important step in making upper stages for several launch vehicles inherently refuelable.

~Jon

Congrats Jon to you and your Altius team.

Edit/Lar: demangled quotes
« Last Edit: 01/19/2017 07:35 pm by Lar »

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