[Edit - a suggestion: since the Mars minute of 59 seconds will cause clocks to drift by about 5 minutes per day relative to solar time, is there a point in sticking to having an integer number of seconds in the Mars minute? Because if you allow decimals and make one Mars Minute equal to 61.6494751 seconds then the Mars Sol of 24 Mars hours of 60 Mars minutes each will be in sync with local solar time. Or you can make it 59.1834961 seconds for 25 hours of 60 Mars minutes and again be in sync...]
Just for fun, I was wondering how long it would take to change Mars' solar day length to 24 Earth hours by firing raptors due west from the top of the southern rim of Pavonis Mons (latitude: 1.48 deg N, altitude 14,000 metres), perhaps as part of a terraforming project. If my math is right, you'd need about 1 million vacuum raptors firing non-stop for 8,600 Mars years.
Quote from: Lumina on 11/07/2016 12:59 amJust for fun, I was wondering how long it would take to change Mars' solar day length to 24 Earth hours by firing raptors due west from the top of the southern rim of Pavonis Mons (latitude: 1.48 deg N, altitude 14,000 metres), perhaps as part of a terraforming project. If my math is right, you'd need about 1 million vacuum raptors firing non-stop for 8,600 Mars years. Your calculation is a little off. It will actually take 1 million vacuum raptors firing approximately infinity Mars years.The problem is that the exhaust of the raptors stays in the atmosphere and it eventually imparts its momentum back to the planet.Said another way, unless something is leaving the planet, conservation of angular momentum says the rotational speed won't be affected except by the distribution of mass. Move more mass to the poles and the rotation will speed up. But you'd have to move an impractically huge amount of mass to get a 24-hour day.
Inspired by Mark_M, here's my complete proposal for Martian timekeeping and calendar:1 Mars second = 1 Earth second1 Mars Minute = 61.6494751 Earth seconds1 Mars Hour = 60 Mars minutes1 Mars Sol = 24 Mars hours1 Mars Year = 669 Mars solsJanuary = 50 solsFebruary = 48 sols (46 sols every 5 Mars years)March = 54 sols (Spring Equinox: March 36th)April = 66 solsMay = 67 solsJune = 64 sols (Summer Solstice: June 43rd)July = 64 solsAugust = 63 solsSeptember = 45 sols (Autumn Equinox: September 30th)October = 45 solsNovember = 44 solsDecember = 59 sols (Winter Solstice: December 39th)
Do you really not see how incredibly annoying that would be to actually live with? Fractional seconds per minute? "Months" ranging from 44 to 67 days in a random pattern? Why? What possible advantage could there be to having such a system?
Quote from: Oersted on 11/05/2016 08:27 pmI really hope they will use a logical regular calendar, such as the proposed International Fixed Calendar that we OUGHT to use here on Earth...- Every day of the month falls on the same weekday in each month—the 17th always falls on a Tuesday, for example."I can't think of anything more horrendous! This is a perfect example of calendar design that exalts logic over humanity. Calendars are meant to be used by people. People who have, for instance, birthdays; and we all know we prefer to celebrate our birthday on some days of the week more than others - those where we don't have to go to work the next day, for instance. Such a fixed calendar means that if you're unlucky enough to be born on a day that's a bad day for a birthday party, it will be a bad day for a birthday party your entire life. The Gregorian calendar rotates the dates through the days of the week giving everyone a shot at good and bad days.
I really hope they will use a logical regular calendar, such as the proposed International Fixed Calendar that we OUGHT to use here on Earth...- Every day of the month falls on the same weekday in each month—the 17th always falls on a Tuesday, for example."
Quote from: CuddlyRocket on 11/06/2016 09:24 pmQuote from: Oersted on 11/05/2016 08:27 pmI really hope they will use a logical regular calendar, such as the proposed International Fixed Calendar that we OUGHT to use here on Earth...- Every day of the month falls on the same weekday in each month—the 17th always falls on a Tuesday, for example."I can't think of anything more horrendous! This is a perfect example of calendar design that exalts logic over humanity. Calendars are meant to be used by people. People who have, for instance, birthdays; and we all know we prefer to celebrate our birthday on some days of the week more than others - those where we don't have to go to work the next day, for instance. Such a fixed calendar means that if you're unlucky enough to be born on a day that's a bad day for a birthday party, it will be a bad day for a birthday party your entire life. The Gregorian calendar rotates the dates through the days of the week giving everyone a shot at good and bad days.If that is the worst you can come up with about the International Fixed Calendar then I am tempted to take that as a ringing endorsement of the idea!
Quote... it's just that 24-hour time makes a lot of sense. Obviously it's going to need some adjusting however, since we need to stuff more seconds into each hour. A Martian Hour would therefore consist 3,698.9675 seconds in 60 Martian Minutes. Each Martian Minute would consist of 61.649 seconds, while the SI second would be left as is. This would probably be a good compromise at doing an early Martian timekeeping system.This is obviously a new usage of the phrase 'good compromise' that I've not previously come across before! Do you really think people are going to use 'minutes' consisting of 61.549 seconds?People need to remember that a self-sustaining Mars colony is going to be big enough that a substantial fraction of the population won't have careers in any numerate discipline, let alone scientists and engineers (it will probably have the same proportion who are functionally innumerate!). Calendars and time-keeping have to work for everyone, not just scientists and engineers, or even just the well-educated.
... it's just that 24-hour time makes a lot of sense. Obviously it's going to need some adjusting however, since we need to stuff more seconds into each hour. A Martian Hour would therefore consist 3,698.9675 seconds in 60 Martian Minutes. Each Martian Minute would consist of 61.649 seconds, while the SI second would be left as is. This would probably be a good compromise at doing an early Martian timekeeping system.
Leave seconds, minutes, and hours alone, you insane people!
Quote from: Lumina on 11/07/2016 12:35 amInspired by Mark_M, here's my complete proposal for Martian timekeeping and calendar:1 Mars second = 1 Earth second1 Mars Minute = 61.6494751 Earth seconds1 Mars Hour = 60 Mars minutes1 Mars Sol = 24 Mars hours1 Mars Year = 669 Mars solsJanuary = 50 solsFebruary = 48 sols (46 sols every 5 Mars years)March = 54 sols (Spring Equinox: March 36th)April = 66 solsMay = 67 solsJune = 64 sols (Summer Solstice: June 43rd)July = 64 solsAugust = 63 solsSeptember = 45 sols (Autumn Equinox: September 30th)October = 45 solsNovember = 44 solsDecember = 59 sols (Winter Solstice: December 39th)Do you really not see how incredibly annoying that would be to actually live with? Fractional seconds per minute? "Months" ranging from 44 to 67 days in a random pattern? Why? What possible advantage could there be to having such a system?
Quote from: Robotbeat on 11/07/2016 06:23 pmLeave seconds, minutes, and hours alone, you insane people! "No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."This is from a speech Winston Churchill gave to the House of Commons, November 11, 1947.After weighing the alternatives, and considering that all timekeeping is basically digital nowadays, I suggest that having a fractional number of seconds per Martian minute is the worst form of timekeeping except all those other forms that have been suggested from time to time
Those living on Mars would want a sunlight oriented system for sols like we have on Earth. I think it's a bad idea to alter the second proportionately as some elsewhere have suggested. Although not noticed by Mars residents it could complicate engineering calculations and be a source of error.My radical Mars quirky solution is to use normal Earth hours minutes and seconds but at midnight when all but the night shift and those wild & crazy late night Mars party animals are asleep, have the clocks go to Red Time where the extra 39 minutes 35.244 seconds are added and counted down before resuming at say 12:01. Mars sols are preserved. Everyone in the inner solar system is using standard seconds, etc. And a party time is enshrined in unique Mars culture.
My radical Mars quirky solution is to use normal Earth hours minutes and seconds but at midnight when all but the night shift and those wild & crazy late night Mars party animals are asleep, have the clocks go to Red Time where the extra 39 minutes 35.244 seconds are added and counted down before resuming at say 12:01. Mars sols are preserved. Everyone in the inner solar system is using standard seconds, etc. And a party time is enshrined in unique Mars culture.
The lengh of the months is not random at all and it certainly isn't any more arbitrary than the length of months on Earth
(see the children's rhyme below)....Thirty days hath September, April, June, and November.All the rest have thirty-one,Except for February ...
The intent of the concept is to keep the most important features of our calendar as close to being intact and familiar as possible
One important feature of a Mars calendar in my opinion is to have the familiar names of the months
This then constrained somewhat the choices of how many days I could give to each month, [etc etc]
At a different level, what to choose as the origin for figuring years on Mars? Many SF books take the "year of first manned landing" as the origin, and figure in Mars Years before and after that.
When people are spread all over Mars and people live in all time zones, there is a problem.You can keep that part hour locally everywhere at midnight, that would make for odd jumps of time between time zones.
I insist: 25 martian hour with 53 martian minutes of 67 seconds. leaves an error of .5 seconds/sol. Don't call them hour and minutes, put another name, and you are done.