Author Topic: CCDev/CCP updates  (Read 73846 times)

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8356
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 2539
  • Likes Given: 8273
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #40 on: 09/27/2011 02:56 pm »
There's a second option to four launches, that might be interesting to study further. There's always the discussion of using a Taxi model, or a rented vehicle model. And there's the issue, that if you use two different vehicles, you'd have to cross train the pilots for both LV for use as CEV.
What if NASA contracts one supplier in a rented vehicle model, and uses that capsule as CEV exclusively, while the other supplier acts only in a Taxi model?
It would allow to have a single CEV training for the crew, and save a bit on the second supplier side since they would only contract for the crew transport service. And they could gain experience with both models. If I had to make a decision I would push really hard for this dual model.

Offline majormajor42

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Liked: 74
  • Likes Given: 230
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #41 on: 09/28/2011 06:12 pm »
Just for clarity -- the NASA/ISS plan is for USOS occupied by 4 crew members, and ROS occupied by 3?  This would be a crew of 7, with "surge" to 10 when two Soyuz are docked and surge to 9 (or more) when a CCP vehicle is docked?

That was always the plan.  The limiter has always been Soyuz can only hold three.  Now if there is always a "surge" or one crew comes home first and the next launches is just dependent on the final concept of operations decided.

Correct - direct versus indirect is still being worked.

you use the words "direct" and "indirect" in a way that there is implied meaning. I am unfamiliar. Can someone expound on this?

I guess I am also having trouble following this thread in general. I read the meeting notes from Ames. I guess it requires a certain amount of knowledge of how things were done in the past in order to interpret how they will be done in the future. So what I know is that for the past few years, crew rotations on ISS have been done with Soyuz. In the past, on occasion, a crew member would be rotated by STS. I'm not sure how that worked, in that an Astronaut would be lofted by a Soyuz for what would normally be a 6 month stint and somewhere halfway would be rotated by STS with another Astronaut would would be brought home by that same Soyuz?

Are Cosmonauts and Astronauts that are brought up with a Soyuz flight, for the last few years at least, usually brought down by that same craft? It is my understanding, that yes.

So if there are now going to be four CC flights a year that rotate two Astronauts each, do each of those flights stay up there attached to the ISS while those two Astronauts are aboard? So those two to five extra seats may now be taken up by additional cargo?

I've read that those seats may be taken up by others, such as pilots or other short term visitors. So their CCv must supply their food, okay. Is that the thing that limits how long they can stay? Do they return in the same craft that brought them up? Is there therefor some other CC craft  that stays attached (as a lifeboat) for the two Astronauts that are staying on board?

Will the Soyuz still fly about 4 times a year, bringing three people for six months stays each?
...water is life and it is out there, where we intend to go. I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man or machine on a body such as the Moon and harvest a cup of water for a human to drink or process into fuel for their craft.

Offline baldusi

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8356
  • Buenos Aires, Argentina
  • Liked: 2539
  • Likes Given: 8273
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #42 on: 09/29/2011 05:30 pm »
Just tweeted:
@NASAKennedy NASA Kennedy / KSC
"SpaceX has just completed a review of the components they will use on their launch abort system. A milestone for #CCP round 2 development."

Offline Ronsmytheiii

  • Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23394
  • Liked: 1879
  • Likes Given: 1023
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #43 on: 09/29/2011 06:09 pm »
direct handover is when a new crew arrives to station before the old one leaves, so there would be an overlap in the case of a nominal expedition of 9 people (six previous, 3 new crew) before the returning crew left.  what is done today is indirect handover, where the old crew (3 people) undocks and then returns to earth, and then the new crew launches to join the other three already up there. 

Direct was the way expedition crews were transferred when station was three crew, but now with six it has switched to indirect.
« Last Edit: 09/29/2011 06:10 pm by Ronsmytheiii »

Offline erioladastra

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Liked: 222
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #44 on: 09/30/2011 01:17 am »


you use the words "direct" and "indirect" in a way that there is implied meaning. I am unfamiliar. Can someone expound on this?

I guess I am also having trouble following this thread in general. I read the meeting notes from Ames. I guess it requires a certain amount of knowledge of how things were done in the past in order to interpret how they will be done in the future. So what I know is that for the past few years, crew rotations on ISS have been done with Soyuz. In the past, on occasion, a crew member would be rotated by STS. I'm not sure how that worked, in that an Astronaut would be lofted by a Soyuz for what would normally be a 6 month stint and somewhere halfway would be rotated by STS with another Astronaut would would be brought home by that same Soyuz?

Are Cosmonauts and Astronauts that are brought up with a Soyuz flight, for the last few years at least, usually brought down by that same craft? It is my understanding, that yes.

So if there are now going to be four CC flights a year that rotate two Astronauts each, do each of those flights stay up there attached to the ISS while those two Astronauts are aboard? So those two to five extra seats may now be taken up by additional cargo?

I've read that those seats may be taken up by others, such as pilots or other short term visitors. So their CCv must supply their food, okay. Is that the thing that limits how long they can stay? Do they return in the same craft that brought them up? Is there therefor some other CC craft  that stays attached (as a lifeboat) for the two Astronauts that are staying on board?

Will the Soyuz still fly about 4 times a year, bringing three people for six months stays each?
[/quote]

Good questions.  I see someone answered the direct/indirect.  For a period we did rotate 1 crew member sometimes on the shuttle.  A crewmember might go up or down on a shuttle or up or down on the Soyuz (thought I can'te recall if we did all permutations - getting old :)).  If they went up on a shuttle, a special seat liner was brought up and inserted in their designated Soyuz so they could return at any time.  Sometimes we swapped seat liners for different crews.  For example, Suni Williams was part of Increment 15, and then she was replaced by Clay Anderson who was then swapped by Dan Tani.  It was an augmentantion plan that was very complcaited.

CCs will only go twice a year most likely.  The 3-4 crew will go up and stay for their increment and then come home.  It is unlikely paying passengers will go up on these flights since to not have them stay means extra launches which it is unlikely the ISS would pay for (or your seat prices would be too high).  Could change but I suspect the extra seats on ISS will be cargo.

Offline arkaska

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3042
  • Sweden
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #45 on: 09/30/2011 11:37 am »
It might be worth adding that in the beginning (pre-STS-107) crew rotations was done entirely with Shuttle with Soyuz as an emergency return vehicle.

Offline Ronsmytheiii

  • Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23394
  • Liked: 1879
  • Likes Given: 1023
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #46 on: 09/30/2011 11:31 pm »
It might be worth adding that in the beginning (pre-STS-107) crew rotations was done entirely with Shuttle with Soyuz as an emergency return vehicle.

Except Expedition 1 (went up on Soyuz  ;))

However there were Soyuz taxi flights, which was the beginning of space tourism.  Basically a crew would fly up with a new soyuz, and after a short stay would return with the old one.  Soyuz was still required for crew stays, not really sure why expedition crews had to go up on shuttle besides good old nationalism. 

Offline Jorge

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6404
  • Liked: 529
  • Likes Given: 67
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #47 on: 10/01/2011 05:05 am »
It might be worth adding that in the beginning (pre-STS-107) crew rotations was done entirely with Shuttle with Soyuz as an emergency return vehicle.

Except Expedition 1 (went up on Soyuz  ;))

However there were Soyuz taxi flights, which was the beginning of space tourism.  Basically a crew would fly up with a new soyuz, and after a short stay would return with the old one.  Soyuz was still required for crew stays, not really sure why expedition crews had to go up on shuttle besides good old nationalism. 

During pre-107 ISS assembly, expedition crews trained for assembly tasks and therefore it made sense to tie the start and end of their expeditions to shuttle flights.

The post-107 move of station crew rotation to Soyuz drastically limited the roles that expedition crews could fill on the remaining assembly flights and shifted more of the burden to the shuttle crews, due to the probability that shuttle launches would slip out past the end of the ISS expedition originally trained for the tasks.

Nationalism had nothing to do with it.
JRF

Offline majormajor42

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 531
  • Liked: 74
  • Likes Given: 230
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #48 on: 10/04/2011 07:18 pm »
thanks for the answers. that cleared some things up for me.

Any ideas then what the Russians will do with Soyuz once the CCDev/CCP flights are up and running? Will two Soyuz, when the time comes, bring up three cosmonauts each for six month stays, for about four flights a year?

If they knock it down to just one soyuz with three at a time, does that open up an extra Russian docking spot? The Soyuz crews could then do "direct" handovers or that makes room for another Progress if need be?
...water is life and it is out there, where we intend to go. I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man or machine on a body such as the Moon and harvest a cup of water for a human to drink or process into fuel for their craft.

Offline arkaska

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3042
  • Sweden
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #49 on: 10/04/2011 07:44 pm »
The life support can not handle more then 7 people so the Russians will stick to 3 crew-members.

Offline Ronsmytheiii

  • Moderator
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23394
  • Liked: 1879
  • Likes Given: 1023
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #50 on: 10/04/2011 08:06 pm »
The life support can not handle more then 7 people so the Russians will stick to 3 crew-members.

ISS has handled up to 13 people at a time for short duration, a week handover should not be that big of a deal:

However, would not expect this to occur during a USOS crew handover, however doubtful that would happen with issues of crew support for docking operations.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2011 08:09 pm by Ronsmytheiii »

Offline joek

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4870
  • Liked: 2783
  • Likes Given: 1097
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #51 on: 10/04/2011 09:12 pm »
- CCP Oct 4 Requirements Workshop Presentation, see here.
- CCP Oct 4 IDC Pre-solicitation Conference presentation, see here.


edit: move to appropriate threads.
« Last Edit: 10/04/2011 09:22 pm by joek »

Offline arkaska

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3042
  • Sweden
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #52 on: 10/04/2011 09:47 pm »
The life support can not handle more then 7 people so the Russians will stick to 3 crew-members.

ISS has handled up to 13 people at a time for short duration, a week handover should not be that big of a deal:

However, would not expect this to occur during a USOS crew handover, however doubtful that would happen with issues of crew support for docking operations.


Well if you had read the post below mine you would have found out that the question was not about short duration.

majormajor42 wrote:
Quote
Will two Soyuz, when the time comes, bring up three cosmonauts each for six month stays, for about four flights a year?

And 4 Soyuz flights a year with three cosmonauts equals 6 cosmonauts onboard all the time, something the life-support can not handle...
« Last Edit: 10/04/2011 09:52 pm by arkaska »

Offline BrightLight

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1381
  • Northern New Mexico
  • Liked: 312
  • Likes Given: 924
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #53 on: 10/23/2011 09:02 pm »

Offline Garrett

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1134
  • France
  • Liked: 128
  • Likes Given: 113
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #54 on: 10/23/2011 09:38 pm »
Third CCDev update from NASA:

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/598229main_CCPCCDev2_Public_20111017_508.pdf

So, SpaceX are expected to have LAS hardware by start of Q2-2012, just 6 months after LAS preliminary design review? Am I reading this right?
- "Nothing shocks me. I'm a scientist." - Indiana Jones

Offline BrightLight

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1381
  • Northern New Mexico
  • Liked: 312
  • Likes Given: 924
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #55 on: 10/23/2011 09:42 pm »
Third CCDev update from NASA:

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/598229main_CCPCCDev2_Public_20111017_508.pdf

So, SpaceX are expected to have LAS hardware by start of Q2-2012, just 6 months after LAS preliminary design review? Am I reading this right?
6 to 7 months

Offline joek

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4870
  • Liked: 2783
  • Likes Given: 1097
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #56 on: 10/23/2011 09:45 pm »
Third CCDev update from NASA:
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/598229main_CCPCCDev2_Public_20111017_508.pdf

Thanks for the update!   Looks like everyone has tracked well to original milestone dates so far.  Altho Boeing's are redacted in the original SAA, based on the amendment appear to be projected to still be on track.

Offline BrightLight

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1381
  • Northern New Mexico
  • Liked: 312
  • Likes Given: 924
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #57 on: 10/23/2011 09:48 pm »
Third CCDev update from NASA:
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/598229main_CCPCCDev2_Public_20111017_508.pdf

Thanks for the update!   Looks like everyone has tracked well to original milestone dates so far.  Altho Boeing's are redacted in the original SAA, based on the amendment appear to be projected to still be on track.
YW, although if it wasn't me, it would be someone else!

Offline manboy

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2086
  • Texas, USA, Earth
  • Liked: 134
  • Likes Given: 544
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #58 on: 10/23/2011 10:20 pm »
The life support can not handle more then 7 people so the Russians will stick to 3 crew-members.

ISS has handled up to 13 people at a time for short duration, a week handover should not be that big of a deal:

However, would not expect this to occur during a USOS crew handover, however doubtful that would happen with issues of crew support for docking operations.

But since there's intended to be two docking ports for Commercial Crew than why would this problem exist?
« Last Edit: 10/23/2011 10:24 pm by manboy »
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline joek

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4870
  • Liked: 2783
  • Likes Given: 1097
Re: CCDev/CCP updates
« Reply #59 on: 10/23/2011 11:32 pm »
The life support can not handle more then 7 people so the Russians will stick to 3 crew-members.
ISS has handled up to 13 people at a time for short duration, a week handover should not be that big of a deal:

However, would not expect this to occur during a USOS crew handover, however doubtful that would happen with issues of crew support for docking operations.

But since there's intended to be two docking ports for Commercial Crew than why would this problem exist?


I believe the concern is not docking ports, but ISS life support for additional crew during handover if crew ISS stay overlaps; in particular, given that the ISS's life support appears to be limited to 7 for extended periods (?).  Given the objective of increasing USOS crew to 4, and assuming crew overlap, that could be as many as 11 (4+4+3) for the USOS; as many as 10 (3+3+4) for the ROS; or as many as 14 (4+4+3+3) for both.

However, I would hope and expect that ISS operations takes such considerations into account when scheduling crew rotations.  Exactly what those considerations/limits are is probably a question better addressed by the guru's in the ISS section.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1