Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)

[TrevorMonty]

I think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets)

SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).

A single core F9R equivalent would handle most of their missions. Add A6 SRBs for high performance missions and operate as ELV.

Cheaper to add SRBs they already have than try to design FHR equivalent which rarely flies.

[Zed_Noir]

I think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets)

SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).

A single core F9R equivalent would handle most of their missions. Add A6 SRBs for high performance missions and operate as ELV.

Cheaper to add SRBs they already have than try to design FHR equivalent which rarely flies.

Will point out that there is a limit to the number of A6/Vega-C SRB that can be poured at Kourou. Estimate the current limit is about 20 SRB annually. The locals around Kourou prefer less A6/Vega-C SRB being manufactured there, AIUI.

Guessing what @Steve Pietrobon is hinting at is a down-sized New Glenn equivalent. However the Europeans don't really have a suitable engine available. Unless they acquire some recent American cryogenic engines.

[TheKutKu]

I think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets)

SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).

A single core F9R equivalent would handle most of their missions. Add A6 SRBs for high performance missions and operate as ELV.

Cheaper to add SRBs they already have than try to design FHR equivalent which rarely flies.

None of the SRBs they already have (P120, P120+, whatever)  is exactly easy or cheaper to add to a rocket, probably not any more than making a multi-core variant of this Maia.

[Steven Pietrobon]

Guessing what @Steve Pietrobon is hinting at is a down-sized New Glenn equivalent. However the Europeans don't really have a suitable engine available. Unless they acquire some recent American cryogenic engines.

The 980 kN Prometheus is a good place to start. Have nine on a reusable first stage and one on the second. That should give performance as good as Falcon 9.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1613112397790584832

THEMIS! The @ArianeGroup Themis reusable launch booster demonstrator has arrived in Sweden ahead of the inauguration of the Esrange orbital launch facility on Friday. This is the first time we've got to see a Themis booster. Credit: Mia Kleregård of @SSCspace on LinkedIn

[TrevorMonty]

I think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets)

SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).

A single core F9R equivalent would handle most of their missions. Add A6 SRBs for high performance missions and operate as ELV.

Cheaper to add SRBs they already have than try to design FHR equivalent which rarely flies.

None of the SRBs they already have (P120, P120+, whatever)  is exactly easy or cheaper to add to a rocket, probably not any more than making a multi-core variant of this Maia.

They've done design work for A6 which will use 2-4 P120 SRBs. Given how few times FH launches I wouldn't many launches would require SRBs.

[Mamut]

Themis arrived in Sweden?
https://twitter.com/AndrewParsonson/status/1613112397790584832

[Rik ISS-fan]

Will point out that there is a limit to the number of A6/Vega-C SRB that can be poured at Kourou. Estimate the current limit is about 20 SRB annually. The locals around Kourou prefer less A6/Vega-C SRB being manufactured there, AIUI.

Back up that estimate with a source please.
Afaik the limit is around 35 P120C annually.

I think it's odd Themis (mini Maia 1th stage) arrived at Esrange before Callisto.
I thought 1MN thrust was above  the limit for Esrange LZ-3.  Themis is 3x as powerful.
But the limit is 15mT TNT- equivalent, so amount of propallent is limited.
I'm don't know how to convert the TNT equivalent into rocket size allowed.
But Themis is a ridiculously large demonstrator for it's purpose. 
Sirius-1 (multiple pressure feed engines, possible Prometheus gas generator derived) would have been much more logical in my oppinion.

I also want the Maia heavy to be the focus for Maia space/ArianeGroup-France. A 5.4m diameter stage with 7 to 9 Prometheus (Gas Generator) or a staged combustion engines. This could be produced alongside the Ariane 6 LLPM (core).
Heavy could use a modified ULPM, with more powerful Vince, or a Prometheus/M60 powered stage.
The super heavy could use two Maia heavy boosters, with a expendable LLPM, or Maia Heavy with less engines as expendable core. With the same upperstages.

The problem is that if Avio is allowed and able to develop the M60 (ACE-60) and Vega Next gen (3.4m diameter with 7-9 M60 engines) This is similar to the Maia medium and better suitable to be integrated with Ariane 6.

Arianegoup proposes what delivers work for them. Avio does the same. And it's ESA employees or politicians who decide what proposal gets funded. Risks are way to high for private funding (in Europe).
Both Themis/ Maia space Mini and Avio TSTO demo rocket, ruļne the commercial mini/micro launcher market in Europe.
Why invest into a competing system to a fully state funded launcher?!
.
Edit to note that these ideas for launcher might launch n.e.t. 2030s.  This decade Europe needs Ariane 6, Vega-C/E and some smaller rockets. In my oppinion the micro/ mini launchers should be left to the commercial market.

[Rik ISS-fan]

Sorry, but how many second of engine burning time have been achieved on the two demonstrator Prometheus engines?
Is this enough for a demonstrator rocket. NO, Far to few to use it on a reusable stage demonstrator.
Where has commen sence gone to?

[TheKutKu]

Will point out that there is a limit to the number of A6/Vega-C SRB that can be poured at Kourou. Estimate the current limit is about 20 SRB annually. The locals around Kourou prefer less A6/Vega-C SRB being manufactured there, AIUI.

Back up that estimate with a source please.
Afaik the limit is around 35 P120C annually.

I think it's odd Themis (mini Maia 1th stage) arrived at Esrange before Callisto.
I thought 1MN thrust was above  the limit for Esrange LZ-3.  Themis is 3x as powerful.
But the limit is 15mT TNT- equivalent, so amount of propallent is limited.
I'm don't know how to convert the TNT equivalent into rocket size allowed.
But Themis is a ridiculously large demonstrator for it's purpose. 
Sirius-1 (multiple pressure feed engines, possible Prometheus gas generator derived) would have been much more logical in my oppinion.

I also want the Maia heavy to be the focus for Maia space/ArianeGroup-France. A 5.4m diameter stage with 7 to 9 Prometheus (Gas Generator) or a staged combustion engines. This could be produced alongside the Ariane 6 LLPM (core).
Heavy could use a modified ULPM, with more powerful Vince, or a Prometheus/M60 powered stage.
The super heavy could use two Maia heavy boosters, with a expendable LLPM, or Maia Heavy with less engines as expendable core. With the same upperstages.

The problem is that if Avio is allowed and able to develop the M60 (ACE-60) and Vega Next gen (3.4m diameter with 7-9 M60 engines) This is similar to the Maia medium and better suitable to be integrated with Ariane 6.

Arianegoup proposes what delivers work for them. Avio does the same. And it's ESA employees or politicians who decide what proposal gets funded. Risks are way to high for private funding (in Europe).
Both Themis/ Maia space Mini and Avio TSTO demo rocket, ruļne the commercial mini/micro launcher market in Europe.
Why invest into a competing system to a fully state funded launcher?!

The Themis vehicle that is supposed to be tested at Esrange is Themis 1 with only 1 prometheus engine, plus the engine is throtlable down to 30%.

1 T TNT = 4.2 GJ; CH4 = 55 MG/kg, so amount of Methane limited to ~1.1 tons; or about 5 tons of propellant at 3.5:1 ratio (Fuel tank is for 130 tons).
Not a whole lot, if the Prometheus is 1000 kN/350 isp then that's only 20 seconds of full thrust; 1 minute throttled down. But it's only supposed to do 100m hops, if you look it up on youtube, SpaceX's grasshopper hops were no longer than 1 minute.

Furthermore the conversion of energy to "explosive energy" is not perfect since propellant tanks aren't designed to explode lol. So there's margin beyond these 5 tons.

Callisto is a mostly separate project (JAXA's follow up to RVT->RV-X with CNES and DLR grafted on), Themis is pure Arianegroup skunkwork with CNES, ONERA, ESA participation and some French, Belgian and Swiss industrials. Arianework (and now Maiaspace since last august, lots of overlap between the two) was designed to be a more flexible, it would make no sense to wait for an international institutional program which faces delays (was supposed to fly in 2021...).

Sirius was made after Arianeworks and Themis afaik, plus it's less advanced.


To me, Maiaspace has two goals:
1) Offer a direct and targeted competition, or at least the appearance of one, to Avio and OHB (RFA), based on reusing as much of Themis (which was partially publicily funded by ESA CNES ONERA..)

2) Prove that AG has forward thinking and innovation capabilities so that they still get picked as the prime contractor for the post-A6 ESA launcher funding. Everybody knows that if A6 doesn't do well (both on the commercial and institutional market), there is a risk that AG-AS and the CSG will be left behind for the post-A6 (which will surely come sooner than the gap from A5 to A6) and european launcher industry will be split in purely French, German, Italian interests.

In this context, it makes no sense to focus on Maia heavy which would be slower to develop and outsized, plus it would also compete with A62! You can be sure that AG will want to receive funding and subsidies for a institutionnal heavy launcher.

[TheKutKu]

Sorry, but how many second of engine burning time have been achieved on the two demonstrator Prometheus engines?
Is this enough for a demonstrator rocket. NO, Far to few to use it on a reusable stage demonstrator.
Where has commen sence gone to?

From what I've read their goal was only to do short (<5s) tests at Vernon before moving quickly to Kiruna. The prometheus full scale test fire were directly done on a Themis tank after all.
I wouldn't be surprised if the engine come much later however.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1613772223818469377

It looks like we're going to have to wait another year before the first hop test of the @ArianeGroup Themis reusable booster demonstrator.

Text on booster sign:

The European space launcher's reusable first stage demonstrator
First lift off in 2024 from Spaceport Esrange, Sweden.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1613895083539009537

MaiaSpace finally has a website - https://maia-space.com/

[TrevorMonty]

https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1613895083539009537

MaiaSpace finally has a website - https://maia-space.com/

Wish they came up with different design than mini F9R booster for recovery. Blue, RL and Stoke are trying different ideas. Aircraft industry tried lots of different tail, wing and land gear configurations before settling on standard layouts now.

[FutureSpaceTourist]

https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1615967880285421568

During an interview with @B_SMART_TV MaiaSpace CEO  Yohann Leroy described the challenges of implementing reusability in a small launch vehicle.

https://europeanspaceflight.com/maiaspace-ceo-admits-reusing-small-launchers-is-a-challenging-prospect/

[Mamut]

First leg of the Themis on its way to Vernon, France.

[Moderator: Attach images. Do not embed them.]

LinkedIn link

Image link

[AndrewParsonson]

"According to public filings, ArianeGroup invested €6 million more into MaiaSpace in late January. Filings indicate that MaiaSpace issued an additional 1.5 million shares as part of the agreement. This brings the total amount ArianeGroup has invested in the company to €10.9 million."

https://europeanspaceflight.com/arianegroup-invest-e6m-more-into-maiaspace/