SpaceX Dragon XL

[klod]

It appears that SpaceX is interested in developing a commercial LEO free flying habitat (see below). I wonder if such a habitat would be based on its Dragon XL:

Why wouldn't they? 2nd stage/Starship should go to Mars and back. It would take 3 years. Before the flight, they could test their LSS for at least for few years. Then they should launch this habitat on-orbit and NASA could fund this effort.

[Zed_Noir]

It appears that SpaceX is interested in developing a commercial LEO free flying habitat (see below). I wonder if such a habitat would be based on its Dragon XL:

Interesting that SpaceX is among the companies interested in the upcoming commercial LEO free flying habitats procurement:

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1375799375742525440

Think SpaceX will go big with and proposed a Starship variant for the commercial LEO free flying habitat as one of their proposals along with a Dragon XL variant.

The Dragon XL appears more as a fallback in case of Starship service introduction slippage. The future is not bright for the Dragon XL, IMO.

[Jim]

This does not make for a good station shape.  Plus an aft end full of useless engines.

It has to be something launched by Starship but not the vehicle itself.

[niwax]

This does not make for a good station shape.  Plus an aft end full of useless engines.

It has to be something launched by Starship but not the vehicle itself.

Take a grinder to the bulkheads and take off the engines and you have one hell of a wet workshop.

I'm only half kidding here. SpaceX has shown with the Artemis proposal that they are not above making Starship variants. Although I agree that something like a Dragon XL in LEO makes a lot more sense.

[DistantTemple]

This does not make for a good station shape.  Plus an aft end full of useless engines.

It has to be something launched by Starship but not the vehicle itself.

Take a grinder to the bulkheads and take off the engines and you have one hell of a wet workshop.

I'm only half kidding here. SpaceX has shown with the Artemis proposal that they are not above making Starship variants. Although I agree that something like a Dragon XL in LEO makes a lot more sense.

How many DragonXL could you launch in one Starship?

[Paul451]

[...]

Reply moved to Near term permanent post-ISS space station based on Starship chassis]

[JEF_300]

This does not make for a good station shape.

A single large volume. One that you can bring that can bring itself back to Earth to refurbish, update and/or reconfigure it for different clients.

Plus an aft end full of useless engines.

So?

It has to be something launched by Starship but not the vehicle itself.

Because it's cheaper to build two things than one thing.

The point is to spur development of private space stations. Unless SpaceX is willing to just leave a Starship on orbit indefinitely to be a space station (and hey, maybe they are), Starship is not what NASA is looking for.

[su27k]

Note I started a new thread to discuss whether SpaceX will bid a Starship based space station for CLD: Near term permanent post-ISS space station based on Starship chassis

As for using Dragon XL for this, it seems to be too small. Cygnus has 13 m^3 of pressurized volume, Dream Chaser has 17.7 m^3 of pressurized volume, even if we assume Dragon XL has 30 m^3 of pressurized volume, it's still significantly smaller than ISS modules such as Zvezda/Destiny/Harmony.

[Paul451]

[...]

Reply moved to Near term permanent post-ISS space station based on Starship chassis]

[yg1968]

Note I started a new thread to discuss whether SpaceX will bid a Starship based space station for CLD: Near term permanent post-ISS space station based on Starship chassis

As for using Dragon XL for this, it seems to be too small. Cygnus has 13 m^3 of pressurized volume, Dream Chaser has 17.7 m^3 of pressurized volume, even if we assume Dragon XL has 30 m^3 of pressurized volume, it's still significantly smaller than ISS modules such as Zvezda/Destiny/Harmony.

You could have more multiple modules attached to each other (similar to SNC's project). NASA said that it only wants 2 astronauts full time in LEO.

[clongton]

NASA said that it only wants 2 astronauts full time in LEO.

That is true but nowhere does it say that only NASA personnel will be aboard.

[niwax]

NASA said that it only wants 2 astronauts full time in LEO.

That is true but nowhere does it say that only NASA personnel will be aboard.

More specifically, NASA wants two full time astronauts on board. So if the provider needs the customer to do some maintenance tasks, they will probably request four or more seats, which would also nicely fill out a capsule.

[su27k]

Note I started a new thread to discuss whether SpaceX will bid a Starship based space station for CLD: Near term permanent post-ISS space station based on Starship chassis

As for using Dragon XL for this, it seems to be too small. Cygnus has 13 m^3 of pressurized volume, Dream Chaser has 17.7 m^3 of pressurized volume, even if we assume Dragon XL has 30 m^3 of pressurized volume, it's still significantly smaller than ISS modules such as Zvezda/Destiny/Harmony.

You could have more multiple modules attached to each other (similar to SNC's project). NASA said that it only wants 2 astronauts full time in LEO.

Ok, but I don't see what Dragon XL buys you, seems to me it is an inferior solution comparing to Starship in every way:
1. DXL has smaller volume, so you have to use multiple attached to each other, which require docking or berthing, which is extra operation thus higher cost
2. DXL itself is probably not cheaper than Starship, since it's production volume is low
3. DXL is designed for deep space, so it needs changes to be able to work in LEO.
4. DXL doesn't have a full ECLSS, it's a cargo ship, unlike crewed version of Starship or Lunar Starship which will have full ECLSS
5. DXL is using old technology which SpaceX wanted to phase out eventually.

[spacenut]

Who is going to bring the fuel for the landers and station keeping to the Artemis station?  Can a modified Dragon XL bring fuel for whoever wins the lander awards?  How about fuel or propellant for Artemis station keeping?  What about cargo, food, water, extra clothing, etc. for the Artemis station? 

Right now it seems on a FH can deliver large amounts of cargo and fuel to the Artemis orbit.  Maybe an Atlas V with 5 solids can deliver some.  Maybe a Vulcan heavy and a New Glenn when they come on line.  SLS will be too expensive for continuous supply. 

[hektor]

Ultimately there should also be JAXA's H-3 + HTV-X combo. And possibly Ariane 6 + CLTV.

There are dedicated threads about both cargo spacecraft so I will not go further in details.

[soyuzu]

Who is going to bring the fuel for the landers and station keeping to the Artemis station?  Can a modified Dragon XL bring fuel for whoever wins the lander awards?  How about fuel or propellant for Artemis station keeping?  What about cargo, food, water, extra clothing, etc. for the Artemis station? 

Right now it seems on a FH can deliver large amounts of cargo and fuel to the Artemis orbit.  Maybe an Atlas V with 5 solids can deliver some.  Maybe a Vulcan heavy and a New Glenn when they come on line.  SLS will be too expensive for continuous supply.

Northrop Grumman’s transfer element seems to be a great cryogenic fuel transfer vehicle, and it should have some residual besides performing the 700m/s burn.

Dynetics can just find someone to build a tug for them to transfer and replace the two tanks instead of refueling them.

Then in the long term ACES, maybe even a Starship-supported one will go online.

[Paul451]

Who is going to bring the fuel for the landers and station keeping to the Artemis station?  Can a modified Dragon XL bring fuel for whoever wins the lander awards?  How about fuel or propellant for Artemis station keeping?  What about cargo, food, water, extra clothing, etc. for the Artemis station?

I believe that NASA asked SpaceX to look into whether a DXL bus can also be used as a tug.

However, regarding the landers:
The National Team concept is expendable. It's "refuelled" by sending a whole new stack via SLS. (With a long term goal of mumble-mumble-sustainable-handwave.)
Lunar Starship will require Starship tankers to refuel it. It needs way too much fuel for anything else to supply.
The Dynetics lander has its own transfer stage, launched on Vulcan. Presumably the same launcher and xfer-stage will be used to carry their refueller. DXL wouldn't add anything.

[TrevorMonty]

Who is going to bring the fuel for the landers and station keeping to the Artemis station?  Can a modified Dragon XL bring fuel for whoever wins the lander awards?  How about fuel or propellant for Artemis station keeping?  What about cargo, food, water, extra clothing, etc. for the Artemis station?

I believe that NASA asked SpaceX to look into whether a DXL bus can also be used as a tug.

However, regarding the landers:
The National Team concept is expendable. It's "refuelled" by sending a whole new stack via SLS. (With a long term goal of mumble-mumble-sustainable-handwave.)
Lunar Starship will require Starship tankers to refuel it. It needs way too much fuel for anything else to supply.
The Dynetics lander has its own transfer stage, launched on Vulcan. Presumably the same launcher and xfer-stage will be used to carry their refueller. DXL wouldn't add anything.

National team lander elements can be delivered and refuelled by Vulcan or NG. While SLS is option not likely to happen given cost and low flight rate.
DE is replaced every launch, think AE is refuelled at Gateway, not sure about TE.

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[woods170]

Who is going to bring the fuel for the landers and station keeping to the Artemis station?  Can a modified Dragon XL bring fuel for whoever wins the lander awards?  How about fuel or propellant for Artemis station keeping?  What about cargo, food, water, extra clothing, etc. for the Artemis station? 

I suggest you read up on sites like NASA.gov, ESA.int and the JAXA website.

Because all questions you ask have been answered in public already.

Station keeping of Lunar Gateway (what you refer to as 'the Artemis station') is done by the Power & Propulsion Element, which is the very first element (along with HALO) to be launched, on Falcon Heavy. PPE is solar electric propulsion for station keeping. Chemical as backup. No need to resupply for station keeping purposes for at least 15 years.

Cargo, food, water, clothing, etc. will be transported to Lunar Gateway by Dragon XL and a modified version of HTV-X.

The landers bring their own fuel. The current design of Lunar Gateway does NOT provision for at-station refueling of reusable lunar landers.

[Paul451]

National team lander elements [...]
DE is replaced every launch, think AE is refuelled at Gateway, not sure about TE.

There doesn't seem to be any mention of reintegrating the previous ascent vehicle with a new descent stage (let alone the transfer stage.) The only mention of refuelling is handwaving about ISRU at some point in the future.