SpaceX Dragon XL

[jadebenn]

I don't know if this is true but it would make sense:

https://twitter.com/artemis360_moon/status/1372292826977902594

Dragon XL will be used to resupply Gateway, a lunar outpost for Artemis astronauts. This resupply ship will also include a toilet and beds to provide extra space in HALO for science.

This would explain the "1 year docked" requirement a lot of us were scratching our heads at in the original GLS procurement.

[DreamyPickle]

A dragon-derived Hydrazine tug has been speculated about before and it could be used for a great number of things, among them as a third stage for Falcon Heavy and even Starship.

Is it more than just speculation? There does not appear to be any budget for it.

SpaceX does not currently have a vacuum-optimized hydrazine engine and using SuperDracos (as frequently proposed) would have worse ISP than the AJ10 on the Orion service module. Doing a hydrazine tug "properly" would likely require a new engine.

[Lars-J]

SpaceX does not currently have a vacuum-optimized hydrazine engine and using SuperDracos (as frequently proposed) would have worse ISP than the AJ10 on the Orion service module. Doing a hydrazine tug "properly" would likely require a new engine.

What about Draco engines? Stick a full nozzle on them, and they should qualify. But maybe you mean something with more thrust, like the Orion main engine?

[baldusi]

A dragon-derived Hydrazine tug has been speculated about before and it could be used for a great number of things, among them as a third stage for Falcon Heavy and even Starship.

Is it more than just speculation? There does not appear to be any budget for it.

SpaceX does not currently have a vacuum-optimized hydrazine engine and using SuperDracos (as frequently proposed) would have worse ISP than the AJ10 on the Orion service module. Doing a hydrazine tug "properly" would likely require a new engine.

You probably meant a storable propellant tug, right? Hydrazine is a monopropellant. Tugs usually use a something like MMH/N2O2. Yes, variations of hydrazine, but a different set.
I will only say three things:
1) Not all space-certified storables are as toxic as the hidrazine based ones. There are some new one that were just demonstrated non toxic, and SpaceX is planning on using methalox for multiyear missions.
2) If one company has demonstrated an amazing capability at developing new engines, it is SpaceX. If they needed a storable vac optimized engine, they will develop it very quickly. Specially with all the internal experience they have.
3) I don't see why you can't use an electric tug.

[DistantTemple]

It might be better to think of it as a self- propelled outhouse.

That's it, you've forever ruined an entire spacecraft for me 

Even better - a self propelled outhouse you can sleep in with your three closest friends!

It would make a pretty good police box... its not blue, and its not a cuboid, but once inside it fulfils your most pressing needs, and transports you to boot. Who was that doctor character... he was releasing SX intellectual property... he was using a future version with upgraded engines to get that time displacement effect.

[spacenut]

Can Dragon XL be made into a tug to transfer other modules, landers, or supplies to the Artemis orbit? 

[Slarty1080]

I don't know if this is true but it would make sense:

https://twitter.com/artemis360_moon/status/1372292826977902594

Dragon XL will be used to resupply Gateway, a lunar outpost for Artemis astronauts. This resupply ship will also include a toilet and beds to provide extra space in HALO for science.

Does it make sense? A disposable cargo container is becoming more of a full fledged habitat module with a very short service life.

If dragon was bringing those to the station and leaving them behind maybe that would make sense. (Future crews could relocate them back into subsequent dragon vehicles)

Otherwise it's a recurring weight and cost to each dragon XL mission. Plus there is likely more stringent requirements on dragon if it is planned to be occupied like a habitat vs. infrequently accessed like a cargo craft.

Or maybe this is just on the first dragon XL before the ESA habitat module is available... That could make sense.

It might be better to think of it as a self- propelled outhouse. Dragon XL will be bringing waste back from the station, so having the toilet be on board to directly interface with the waste tanks makes a certian amount of sence and reduces contamination on the rest of the station.

And no ECCLSS in the outhouse so it might get a bit ripe in there. I suppose they will just have to hold their breath. 

[wannamoonbase]

I don't know if this is true but it would make sense:

https://twitter.com/artemis360_moon/status/1372292826977902594

Dragon XL will be used to resupply Gateway, a lunar outpost for Artemis astronauts. This resupply ship will also include a toilet and beds to provide extra space in HALO for science.

Does it make sense? A disposable cargo container is becoming more of a full fledged habitat module with a very short service life.

If dragon was bringing those to the station and leaving them behind maybe that would make sense. (Future crews could relocate them back into subsequent dragon vehicles)

Otherwise it's a recurring weight and cost to each dragon XL mission. Plus there is likely more stringent requirements on dragon if it is planned to be occupied like a habitat vs. infrequently accessed like a cargo craft.

Or maybe this is just on the first dragon XL before the ESA habitat module is available... That could make sense.

It might be better to think of it as a self- propelled outhouse. Dragon XL will be bringing waste back from the station, so having the toilet be on board to directly interface with the waste tanks makes a certian amount of sence and reduces contamination on the rest of the station.

And no ECCLSS in the outhouse so it might get a bit ripe in there. I suppose they will just have to hold their breath. 

After a few days in space the sense of smell diminishes, at least it did with Apollo. 

[jarmumd]

No different than with Dragon 2 at ISS.  The ECLSS isn't on when docked to the ISS, there is a ventilation pipe which provides circulation for the air.  Would imagine gateway would be the same...

[woods170]

Can Dragon XL be made into a tug to transfer other modules, landers, or supplies to the Artemis orbit? 

Dragon XL-based tug would be launched with the module already docked to it. The module would be where the pressurized section is on Dragon XL. So, launch on FH as a 'whole package'

FH upper stage would push the combination into lunar transfer orbit.
Dragon XL-based tug does the final job: enter NRHO, approach to Lunar Gateway and perform the docking.

After the module has been removed from Dragon XL-based tug, and relocated to its permanent position on Gateway (by means of Canadarm 3), the Dragon XL-based tug would undock and send itself into a disposal orbit.

Dragon XL is already in development for sending supplies to the Lunar Gateway. So will be a modified version of HTV-X.

Landers will get to Gateway under their own power. National Team has a Cygnus derivative for that, which serves as a transfer stage for the their lander.
Dynetics uses in-space refueling and its own engines.
So will lunar Starship: in-space refueling and its own engines.

Dragon XL-based tug is there mostly for getting modules, without their own propulsion system, to the Gateway (including the docking).

[woods170]

No different than with Dragon 2 at ISS.  The ECLSS isn't on when docked to the ISS, there is a ventilation pipe which provides circulation for the air.  Would imagine gateway would be the same...

Naturally, the toilet will only be in use when people are there. Which also happens to be the time that the ECLSS is running, including the air filtering system.
And yes, ventilation hoses will be applied between the modules. Exactly like how its done on ISS now.

[guckyfan]

After the module has been removed from Dragon XL-based tug, and relocated to its permanent position on Gateway (by means of Canadarm 3), the Dragon XL-based tug would undock and send itself into a disposal orbit.

If I recall correctly, you said early on that the disposal will be into the Earth atmosphere on a slow low delta-v trajectory. Is this still the plan?

[woods170]

After the module has been removed from Dragon XL-based tug, and relocated to its permanent position on Gateway (by means of Canadarm 3), the Dragon XL-based tug would undock and send itself into a disposal orbit.

If I recall correctly, you said early on that the disposal will be into the Earth atmosphere on a slow low delta-v trajectory. Is this still the plan?

That's for Dragon XL. I haven't had it confirmed that Dragon XL-based tug would do the same.

[Johnnyhinbos]

Can Dragon XL be made into a tug to transfer other modules, landers, or supplies to the Artemis orbit? 

Dragon XL-based tug would be launched with the module already docked to it. The module would be where the pressurized section is on Dragon XL. So, launch on FH as a 'whole package'

FH upper stage would push the combination into lunar transfer orbit.
Dragon XL-based tug does the final job: enter NRHO, approach to Lunar Gateway and perform the docking.

After the module has been removed from Dragon XL-based tug, and relocated to its permanent position on Gateway (by means of Canadarm 3), the Dragon XL-based tug would undock and send itself into a disposal orbit.

Dragon XL is already in development for sending supplies to the Lunar Gateway. So will be a modified version of HTV-X.

Landers will get to Gateway under their own power. National Team has a Cygnus derivative for that, which serves as a transfer stage for the their lander.
Dynetics uses in-space refueling and its own engines.
So will lunar Starship: in-space refueling and its own engines.

Dragon XL-based tug is there mostly for getting modules, without their own propulsion system, to the Gateway (including the docking).

The solar panels are currently on the pressurized end of XL, so that would have to change for the tug concept, unless XL relies on power from its payload?

[woods170]

Can Dragon XL be made into a tug to transfer other modules, landers, or supplies to the Artemis orbit? 

Dragon XL-based tug would be launched with the module already docked to it. The module would be where the pressurized section is on Dragon XL. So, launch on FH as a 'whole package'

FH upper stage would push the combination into lunar transfer orbit.
Dragon XL-based tug does the final job: enter NRHO, approach to Lunar Gateway and perform the docking.

After the module has been removed from Dragon XL-based tug, and relocated to its permanent position on Gateway (by means of Canadarm 3), the Dragon XL-based tug would undock and send itself into a disposal orbit.

Dragon XL is already in development for sending supplies to the Lunar Gateway. So will be a modified version of HTV-X.

Landers will get to Gateway under their own power. National Team has a Cygnus derivative for that, which serves as a transfer stage for the their lander.
Dynetics uses in-space refueling and its own engines.
So will lunar Starship: in-space refueling and its own engines.

Dragon XL-based tug is there mostly for getting modules, without their own propulsion system, to the Gateway (including the docking).

The solar panels are currently on the pressurized end of XL, so that would have to change for the tug concept, unless XL relies on power from its payload?

Solar panels would be moved to the tug itself.

[yg1968]

Can Dragon XL be made into a tug to transfer other modules, landers, or supplies to the Artemis orbit? 

Dragon XL-based tug would be launched with the module already docked to it. The module would be where the pressurized section is on Dragon XL. So, launch on FH as a 'whole package'

FH upper stage would push the combination into lunar transfer orbit.
Dragon XL-based tug does the final job: enter NRHO, approach to Lunar Gateway and perform the docking.

After the module has been removed from Dragon XL-based tug, and relocated to its permanent position on Gateway (by means of Canadarm 3), the Dragon XL-based tug would undock and send itself into a disposal orbit.

Dragon XL is already in development for sending supplies to the Lunar Gateway. So will be a modified version of HTV-X.

Landers will get to Gateway under their own power. National Team has a Cygnus derivative for that, which serves as a transfer stage for the their lander.
Dynetics uses in-space refueling and its own engines.
So will lunar Starship: in-space refueling and its own engines.

Dragon XL-based tug is there mostly for getting modules, without their own propulsion system, to the Gateway (including the docking).

Is there any plans for a Dragon-XL based tug?

[woods170]

Can Dragon XL be made into a tug to transfer other modules, landers, or supplies to the Artemis orbit? 

Dragon XL-based tug would be launched with the module already docked to it. The module would be where the pressurized section is on Dragon XL. So, launch on FH as a 'whole package'

FH upper stage would push the combination into lunar transfer orbit.
Dragon XL-based tug does the final job: enter NRHO, approach to Lunar Gateway and perform the docking.

After the module has been removed from Dragon XL-based tug, and relocated to its permanent position on Gateway (by means of Canadarm 3), the Dragon XL-based tug would undock and send itself into a disposal orbit.

Dragon XL is already in development for sending supplies to the Lunar Gateway. So will be a modified version of HTV-X.

Landers will get to Gateway under their own power. National Team has a Cygnus derivative for that, which serves as a transfer stage for the their lander.
Dynetics uses in-space refueling and its own engines.
So will lunar Starship: in-space refueling and its own engines.

Dragon XL-based tug is there mostly for getting modules, without their own propulsion system, to the Gateway (including the docking).

Is there any plans for a Dragon-XL based tug?

No, not 'plans'. As part of the Dragon XL contract studies are being performed to look at other roles that Dragon XL derivatives might fulfill. One of those study subjects is a Dragon XL derived tug.

So, it's not a plan. It's a study subject.

[yg1968]

I don't know if this is true but it would make sense:

https://twitter.com/artemis360_moon/status/1372292826977902594

Dragon XL will be used to resupply Gateway, a lunar outpost for Artemis astronauts. This resupply ship will also include a toilet and beds to provide extra space in HALO for science.

This would explain the "1 year docked" requirement a lot of us were scratching our heads at in the original GLS procurement.

In the proposed RFP, they had a 3 year docked requirement but it got reduced to one year in the final RFP.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48353.msg1956785#msg1956785

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48353.msg2018139#msg2018139

[yg1968]

It appears that SpaceX is interested in developing a commercial LEO free flying habitat (see below). I wonder if such a habitat would be based on its Dragon XL:

Interesting that SpaceX is among the companies interested in the upcoming commercial LEO free flying habitats procurement:

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1375799375742525440

[hplan]

It appears that SpaceX is interested in developing a commercial LEO free flying habitat (see below). I wonder if such a habitat would be based on its Dragon XL:

This Dragon II platform is proving versatile and potentially useful for a variety of purposes.

Put on the capsule--HLS.

Put on the pressurized cylinder--cargo delivery to lunar orbit, Gateway module. Maybe a free flying space station.

Take off the modules--space tug.

Almost like legos!