Author Topic: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)  (Read 58734 times)

Online TrevorMonty

Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #80 on: 01/09/2023 06:56 am »
I think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets)

SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).
A single core F9R equivalent would handle most of their missions. Add A6 SRBs for high performance missions and operate as ELV.

Cheaper to add SRBs they already have than try to design FHR equivalent which rarely flies.


Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #81 on: 01/10/2023 04:38 pm »
I think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets)

SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).
A single core F9R equivalent would handle most of their missions. Add A6 SRBs for high performance missions and operate as ELV.

Cheaper to add SRBs they already have than try to design FHR equivalent which rarely flies.
Will point out that there is a limit to the number of A6/Vega-C SRB that can be poured at Kourou. Estimate the current limit is about 20 SRB annually. The locals around Kourou prefer less A6/Vega-C SRB being manufactured there, AIUI.

Guessing what @Steve Pietrobon is hinting at is a down-sized New Glenn equivalent. However the Europeans don't really have a suitable engine available. Unless they acquire some recent American cryogenic engines.

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #82 on: 01/10/2023 05:36 pm »
I think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets)

SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).
A single core F9R equivalent would handle most of their missions. Add A6 SRBs for high performance missions and operate as ELV.

Cheaper to add SRBs they already have than try to design FHR equivalent which rarely flies.

None of the SRBs they already have (P120, P120+, whatever)  is exactly easy or cheaper to add to a rocket, probably not any more than making a multi-core variant of this Maia.

Online Steven Pietrobon

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #83 on: 01/11/2023 05:01 am »
Guessing what @Steve Pietrobon is hinting at is a down-sized New Glenn equivalent. However the Europeans don't really have a suitable engine available. Unless they acquire some recent American cryogenic engines.

The 980 kN Prometheus is a good place to start. Have nine on a reusable first stage and one on the second. That should give performance as good as Falcon 9.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #84 on: 01/11/2023 09:09 am »
https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1613112397790584832

Quote
THEMIS! The @ArianeGroup Themis reusable launch booster demonstrator has arrived in Sweden ahead of the inauguration of the Esrange orbital launch facility on Friday. This is the first time we've got to see a Themis booster. Credit: Mia Kleregård of @SSCspace on LinkedIn

Online TrevorMonty

Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #85 on: 01/11/2023 10:24 am »
I think Europe requires 5 sizes of launchers. (and several suborbital rockets)

SpaceX shows that you only need one (Falcon 9) to dominate the market. Build your vehicle a little bigger than Falcon 9 and you cover both Falcon Heavy and Starship (for payloads larger than 25 t, split them into smaller chunks).
A single core F9R equivalent would handle most of their missions. Add A6 SRBs for high performance missions and operate as ELV.

Cheaper to add SRBs they already have than try to design FHR equivalent which rarely flies.

None of the SRBs they already have (P120, P120+, whatever)  is exactly easy or cheaper to add to a rocket, probably not any more than making a multi-core variant of this Maia.
They've done design work for A6 which will use 2-4 P120 SRBs. Given how few times FH launches I wouldn't many launches would require SRBs.

Offline Mamut

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Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #87 on: 01/11/2023 08:07 pm »
Will point out that there is a limit to the number of A6/Vega-C SRB that can be poured at Kourou. Estimate the current limit is about 20 SRB annually. The locals around Kourou prefer less A6/Vega-C SRB being manufactured there, AIUI.
Back up that estimate with a source please.
Afaik the limit is around 35 P120C annually.

I think it's odd Themis (mini Maia 1th stage) arrived at Esrange before Callisto.
I thought 1MN thrust was above  the limit for Esrange LZ-3.  Themis is 3x as powerful.
But the limit is 15mT TNT- equivalent, so amount of propallent is limited.
I'm don't know how to convert the TNT equivalent into rocket size allowed.
But Themis is a ridiculously large demonstrator for it's purpose. 
Sirius-1 (multiple pressure feed engines, possible Prometheus gas generator derived) would have been much more logical in my oppinion.

I also want the Maia heavy to be the focus for Maia space/ArianeGroup-France. A 5.4m diameter stage with 7 to 9 Prometheus (Gas Generator) or a staged combustion engines. This could be produced alongside the Ariane 6 LLPM (core).
Heavy could use a modified ULPM, with more powerful Vince, or a Prometheus/M60 powered stage.
The super heavy could use two Maia heavy boosters, with a expendable LLPM, or Maia Heavy with less engines as expendable core. With the same upperstages.

The problem is that if Avio is allowed and able to develop the M60 (ACE-60) and Vega Next gen (3.4m diameter with 7-9 M60 engines) This is similar to the Maia medium and better suitable to be integrated with Ariane 6.

Arianegoup proposes what delivers work for them. Avio does the same. And it's ESA employees or politicians who decide what proposal gets funded. Risks are way to high for private funding (in Europe).
Both Themis/ Maia space Mini and Avio TSTO demo rocket, ruļne the commercial mini/micro launcher market in Europe.
Why invest into a competing system to a fully state funded launcher?!
.
Edit to note that these ideas for launcher might launch n.e.t. 2030s.  This decade Europe needs Ariane 6, Vega-C/E and some smaller rockets. In my oppinion the micro/ mini launchers should be left to the commercial market.
« Last Edit: 01/11/2023 09:42 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #88 on: 01/11/2023 09:34 pm »
Sorry, but how many second of engine burning time have been achieved on the two demonstrator Prometheus engines?
Is this enough for a demonstrator rocket. NO, Far to few to use it on a reusable stage demonstrator.
Where has commen sence gone to?

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #89 on: 01/11/2023 09:41 pm »
Will point out that there is a limit to the number of A6/Vega-C SRB that can be poured at Kourou. Estimate the current limit is about 20 SRB annually. The locals around Kourou prefer less A6/Vega-C SRB being manufactured there, AIUI.
Back up that estimate with a source please.
Afaik the limit is around 35 P120C annually.

I think it's odd Themis (mini Maia 1th stage) arrived at Esrange before Callisto.
I thought 1MN thrust was above  the limit for Esrange LZ-3.  Themis is 3x as powerful.
But the limit is 15mT TNT- equivalent, so amount of propallent is limited.
I'm don't know how to convert the TNT equivalent into rocket size allowed.
But Themis is a ridiculously large demonstrator for it's purpose. 
Sirius-1 (multiple pressure feed engines, possible Prometheus gas generator derived) would have been much more logical in my oppinion.

I also want the Maia heavy to be the focus for Maia space/ArianeGroup-France. A 5.4m diameter stage with 7 to 9 Prometheus (Gas Generator) or a staged combustion engines. This could be produced alongside the Ariane 6 LLPM (core).
Heavy could use a modified ULPM, with more powerful Vince, or a Prometheus/M60 powered stage.
The super heavy could use two Maia heavy boosters, with a expendable LLPM, or Maia Heavy with less engines as expendable core. With the same upperstages.

The problem is that if Avio is allowed and able to develop the M60 (ACE-60) and Vega Next gen (3.4m diameter with 7-9 M60 engines) This is similar to the Maia medium and better suitable to be integrated with Ariane 6.

Arianegoup proposes what delivers work for them. Avio does the same. And it's ESA employees or politicians who decide what proposal gets funded. Risks are way to high for private funding (in Europe).
Both Themis/ Maia space Mini and Avio TSTO demo rocket, ruļne the commercial mini/micro launcher market in Europe.
Why invest into a competing system to a fully state funded launcher?!

The Themis vehicle that is supposed to be tested at Esrange is Themis 1 with only 1 prometheus engine, plus the engine is throtlable down to 30%.

1 T TNT = 4.2 GJ; CH4 = 55 MG/kg, so amount of Methane limited to ~1.1 tons; or about 5 tons of propellant at 3.5:1 ratio (Fuel tank is for 130 tons).
Not a whole lot, if the Prometheus is 1000 kN/350 isp then that's only 20 seconds of full thrust; 1 minute throttled down. But it's only supposed to do 100m hops, if you look it up on youtube, SpaceX's grasshopper hops were no longer than 1 minute.

Furthermore the conversion of energy to "explosive energy" is not perfect since propellant tanks aren't designed to explode lol. So there's margin beyond these 5 tons.

Callisto is a mostly separate project (JAXA's follow up to RVT->RV-X with CNES and DLR grafted on), Themis is pure Arianegroup skunkwork with CNES, ONERA, ESA participation and some French, Belgian and Swiss industrials. Arianework (and now Maiaspace since last august, lots of overlap between the two) was designed to be a more flexible, it would make no sense to wait for an international institutional program which faces delays (was supposed to fly in 2021...).

Sirius was made after Arianeworks and Themis afaik, plus it's less advanced.


To me, Maiaspace has two goals:
1) Offer a direct and targeted competition, or at least the appearance of one, to Avio and OHB (RFA), based on reusing as much of Themis (which was partially publicily funded by ESA CNES ONERA..)

2) Prove that AG has forward thinking and innovation capabilities so that they still get picked as the prime contractor for the post-A6 ESA launcher funding. Everybody knows that if A6 doesn't do well (both on the commercial and institutional market), there is a risk that AG-AS and the CSG will be left behind for the post-A6 (which will surely come sooner than the gap from A5 to A6) and european launcher industry will be split in purely French, German, Italian interests.

In this context, it makes no sense to focus on Maia heavy which would be slower to develop and outsized, plus it would also compete with A62! You can be sure that AG will want to receive funding and subsidies for a institutionnal heavy launcher.
« Last Edit: 01/12/2023 05:06 pm by TheKutKu »

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #90 on: 01/11/2023 11:20 pm »
Sorry, but how many second of engine burning time have been achieved on the two demonstrator Prometheus engines?
Is this enough for a demonstrator rocket. NO, Far to few to use it on a reusable stage demonstrator.
Where has commen sence gone to?

From what I've read their goal was only to do short (<5s) tests at Vernon before moving quickly to Kiruna. The prometheus full scale test fire were directly done on a Themis tank after all.
I wouldn't be surprised if the engine come much later however.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #91 on: 01/13/2023 06:09 am »
https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1613772223818469377

Quote
It looks like we're going to have to wait another year before the first hop test of the @ArianeGroup Themis reusable booster demonstrator.

Text on booster sign:

Quote
The European space launcher's reusable first stage demonstrator
First lift off in 2024 from Spaceport Esrange, Sweden.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #92 on: 01/13/2023 12:49 pm »

Online TrevorMonty

Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #93 on: 01/13/2023 04:31 pm »
https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1613895083539009537

Quote
MaiaSpace finally has a website - https://maia-space.com/
Wish they came up with different design than mini F9R booster for recovery. Blue, RL and Stoke are trying different ideas. Aircraft industry tried lots of different tail, wing and land gear configurations before settling on standard layouts now.



Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #94 on: 01/19/2023 07:06 am »
https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1615967880285421568

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During an interview with @B_SMART_TV MaiaSpace CEO  Yohann Leroy described the challenges of implementing reusability in a small launch vehicle.

https://europeanspaceflight.com/maiaspace-ceo-admits-reusing-small-launchers-is-a-challenging-prospect/

Offline Mamut

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #95 on: 02/28/2023 02:53 am »
First leg of the Themis on its way to Vernon, France.

[Moderator: Attach images. Do not embed them.]

LinkedIn link

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« Last Edit: 02/28/2023 06:43 am by zubenelgenubi »

Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #96 on: 03/03/2023 07:36 am »
"According to public filings, ArianeGroup invested €6 million more into MaiaSpace in late January. Filings indicate that MaiaSpace issued an additional 1.5 million shares as part of the agreement. This brings the total amount ArianeGroup has invested in the company to €10.9 million."

https://europeanspaceflight.com/arianegroup-invest-e6m-more-into-maiaspace/

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #97 on: 04/27/2023 12:34 pm »
Maiaspace says they have completed a full-scale (second) stage prototype.

Quote
We were delighted to welcome Bruno Bonnell, General Secretary of the France 2030 government investment plan, along with a delegation from ArianeGroup, to our MaiaSpace site at Vernon, today, Wednesday 26 April.

They were met by Jerome VILA, MaiaSpace Deputy CEO, and Francois Planchot, in charge of end-to-end industrialization, who led the delegation around the facility.

MaiaSpace developed the Vernon site as an industrial manufacturing and assembly facility, repurposing existing industrial facilities,

With incremental ramp-up of MaiaSpace product development taking place over the past 12 months, an important milestone was met recently with the delivery of a full-scale stage prototype model.

The visiting delegation was able to take a closer look at the prototype as well as discussing the overall development strategy of MaiaSpace, leveraging amongst other things ArianeGroup’s Prometheus© engine and addressing European reusable and eco-responsible launch capability and space mobility.

Following the visit, Jerome Vila commented “It was a pleasure to show the latest developments at MaiaSpace, highlighting what has been achieved over the last 12 months, and to share our view of what lies ahead. In particular, we are keen to be a user of the ArianeGroup’s test zone, begin cryo-tests, and see some frost on our prototype!”
Quote
MaiaSpace turns 1 year old!  All systems go as we pass the one-year point en-route to first flight in 2025.

We are proud to celebrate our first year of operation as an industrial and commercial structure. As we look back over the past 12 months, we can see clear progress has been made, against the milestones we set, how the company has grown, and take onboard lessons learnt in readiness for the next steps ahead.

Notable achievements realised during year-one of our product development roadmap include scaling-up a skilled and diverse team, completing high-level vehicle design, establishing international partnerships, implementing our industrial facilities in Vernon and - last but not least - delivering a full-scale stage prototype model.

In the meantime, our commercial team did quite an amazing job engaging with our future customer base: validating capabilities, matching analysis with prospects, and fine-tuning our launch service offer to market expectations, sustaining confidence for our overall business and commercial approach.

Measuring our progress against these key milestones validates the agile scale-up strategy of MaiaSpace.

We can continue along our incremental development roadmap with increasing confidence, assured by continual and ongoing testing that further de-risks future progress.

Planned highlights for 2023 include upper-stage cryo-testing, ground testing of our Kick-Stage (Colibri) sub-systems and paving the way for launch site activities at Kourou, Guyane.

None of this would have been possible without people, with MaiaSpace growing to seventy employees, of 10 different nationalities and average age 36, over the past 12 months and planned to double in size again by year-end, increasing cultural, social and gender diversity.

MaiaSpace leverages European technical know-how through a unique combination of expertise, experience, and talent, from a diverse industrial, professional, and cultural background.

Whilst most new hires join the engineering teams, overseeing development of the integrated launch capability, a support function has also been put in place to ensure scale-up continues at pace.

More people means more office space, and we will relocate our office to larger premises at La Défense over the summer period to accommodate the expanded crew.

In parallel, an industrial manufacturing and assembly site has opened at Vernon, repurposing existing industrial facilities.

Our first employee, CEO Yohann Leroy, commented: ”I’m delighted at the progress made over the past 12 months as we made the transition from incubation to business venture. I’m equally looking forward to the year ahead, as we advance development and move closer towards industrial ramp-up. Cadence and tempo remain fully aligned with our overall ambition to shape in a collaborative manner the future of European reusable and eco-responsible launch and space transportation capability”.



Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #98 on: 07/24/2023 07:08 pm »
https://twitter.com/andrewparsonson/status/1683553530139869184

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Scoop: In public filings submitted on 9 June, @ArianeGroup subsidiary MaiaSpace reported total expenses of €3.49 million for its first year of operation ending 31 December 2022.

Offline deltaV

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Re: Maļa Space - ArianeGroup reusable launcher (2026)
« Reply #99 on: 07/25/2023 02:07 am »
https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1683554324490641409

Quote
Spending $3.7 million on a reusable launch vehicle suggests that this is a fairly non-serious effort by Europe's ArianeGroup. That buys you a few PowerPoints and some coffee for the office. It does not get you meaningfully toward reusable launch.

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