Reviving crewed Dream Chaser?

[Steven Pietrobon]

Landing a capsule, under chutes with a precision of what, 100 sq miles, is so last century. God forbid you flood while bobbing in the ocean or hit a boulder or comically large cacti in the desert. Is it safe sure. So is a max speed of 20 mph in your model T.

Its easy to disparage the past when the present is assumed to be the best. Apollo capsule landing accuracy was much better than that. The distance from the target ranged from 1.1 to 5.6 km, with an average distance of 3.0 km.

https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9780387300436

The maximum speed of a Model T is 42 mph (68 km/h).

https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/Ford/20867/Ford-Model-T-.html

[TrevorMonty]

effectively unlimited "landing zones"

The shuttle landing options were awfully less than unlimited…

And I have to say, while we’re casting aspersions, I’d be pretty uncomfortable landing in a one-shot-no-errors-no-go-around glider, where any mistake or problem with getting that touchdown right on try one just means you die.

Unpowered landings aren't big deal especially if weather is good, which it will be for DC landings. Capsules are lot higher risk, they rely on parachutes deploying then are at mercy of winds. Soyzu 23 ended up in lake.

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[jdon759]

effectively unlimited "landing zones"

The shuttle landing options were awfully less than unlimited…

And I have to say, while we’re casting aspersions, I’d be pretty uncomfortable landing in a one-shot-no-errors-no-go-around glider, where any mistake or problem with getting that touchdown right on try one just means you die.

Theoretically, could a Crew Dream Chaser use its abort motors to give itself a second chance at landing?

[Zed_Noir]

effectively unlimited "landing zones"

The shuttle landing options were awfully less than unlimited…

And I have to say, while we’re casting aspersions, I’d be pretty uncomfortable landing in a one-shot-no-errors-no-go-around glider, where any mistake or problem with getting that touchdown right on try one just means you die.

Theoretically, could a Crew Dream Chaser use its abort motors to give itself a second chance at landing?

We would have a better idea if we know what Sierra Space is planning to use for the abort motors. The Cargo Dreamchaser only have RCS thrusters installed.


But the way the so called unlimited "landing zones" is unrealistic. You would have to clear the approach airspace to the runway and clear the airfield for several hours. Never mind liability issues at a commercial airfield.

[jstrotha0975]

Sierra space will need someone to fund the crew Dream Chaser for them because they will not fund it themselves or they would already have.

[TrevorMonty]

Sierra space will need someone to fund the crew Dream Chaser for them because they will not fund it themselves or they would already have.

They've split company up with space systems now separate entity. Plan is to list space systems on stock exchange with Ozmen's holding onto majority shareholding. The cash injection from this will fund large projects.  SNC minus space systems will still be 100% owned by Ozmen's.

Ozmen's plans for crew DC and LEO spacestations are going need $100Ms if not $Bs with debt being most likely source. SNC won't be liable for any of this debt as it is separate company.

While cargo version of DC is LV agnostic this won't be case with crew version . They need to choose LV. With RL, Firefly and Relativity all building larger LVs SN have few more options. 
Crew DC gross mass is 9000kg and was to be launched on Atlas 412.(1SRB 2RL10s).





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[abaddon]

Landing a capsule, under chutes with a precision of what, 100 sq miles, is so last century. God forbid you flood while bobbing in the ocean or hit a boulder or comically large cacti in the desert. Is it safe sure. So is a max speed of 20 mph in your model T.

Its easy to disparage the past when the present is assumed to be the best. Apollo capsule landing accuracy was much better than that. The distance from the target ranged from 1.1 to 5.6 km, with an average distance of 3.0 km.

https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9780387300436

The maximum speed of a Model T is 42 mph (68 km/h).

https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/Ford/20867/Ford-Model-T-.html

Those are great points.  It's also worth noting nobody is landing capsules with the kind of gross inaccuracy suggested in the OP.  For example, it should be blindingly obvious to anyone that actually watches Crew Dragon land that the recovery boats are extremely close to the splashdown location.  Dragons have also not suffered water intrusion since the very early days of the cargo program.  It's sad that the OP feels necessary to make up obviously incorrect "facts" casting aspersions on existing capsules, rather than citing real benefits from the Dream Chaser concept for crewed return.

[Vahe231991]

Given that the first six orbital flights of the Dream Chaser will be launched aboard the Vulcan rocket, it is possible that orbital flights of the manned Dream Chaser will use the Vulcan rocket because no Dream Chaser launches are scheduled to be used aboard any of the remaining Atlas V launches.

[libra]

68 km/h in a Ford T ? wow. Must have been one hell of a memorable ride. 

[Lee Jay]

effectively unlimited "landing zones"

The shuttle landing options were awfully less than unlimited…

DC can land anywhere you can land a 737.  That's a lot of places.

And I have to say, while we’re casting aspersions, I’d be pretty uncomfortable landing in a one-shot-no-errors-no-go-around glider, where any mistake or problem with getting that touchdown right on try one just means you die.

Go-arounds are uncommon and often caused by situations that could be easily mitigated (or ignored) if you knew they were impossible.  Further, DC's steep decent trajectory (glide path) makes the miss distance far shorter than it is for a commercial or GA airplane.

[Asteroza]

Given that the first six orbital flights of the Dream Chaser will be launched aboard the Vulcan rocket, it is possible that orbital flights of the manned Dream Chaser will use the Vulcan rocket because no Dream Chaser launches are scheduled to be used aboard any of the remaining Atlas V launches.

Hrm, does that mean Starliner qualification work would ostensibly shoulder the bulk of the man rating cost for Vulcan? Which means manned DC would largely then need to do crew access arm/escape, plus the aeroloads analysis from being flown naked, for a substantially reduced qualification cost?

[libra]

DC can land anywhere you can land a 737.  That's a lot of places.

... but lifting bodies are (in)famous for being tricky to land - trickier than winged shapes. That's the concept biggest flaw, although it has improved a lot since the 60's obviously. Back then a rather extreme case of lifting body crash was Bruce Peterson terrifying M2F-2 accident in May 1967 - that later granted him an unexpected role in the famous series "The 6 million dollar man" when they reused the footage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Peterson
 

[Rebel44]

Given that the first six orbital flights of the Dream Chaser will be launched aboard the Vulcan rocket, it is possible that orbital flights of the manned Dream Chaser will use the Vulcan rocket because no Dream Chaser launches are scheduled to be used aboard any of the remaining Atlas V launches.

Hrm, does that mean Starliner qualification work would ostensibly shoulder the bulk of the man rating cost for Vulcan? Which means manned DC would largely then need to do crew access arm/escape, plus the aeroloads analysis from being flown naked, for a substantially reduced qualification cost?

All planned Starliner flights will be on Atlas V - so Boeing is in no hurry to pay for potential future crew-rating of Vulcan.

[Lee Jay]

DC can land anywhere you can land a 737.  That's a lot of places.

... but lifting bodies are (in)famous for being tricky to land - trickier than winged shapes.

Did you watch the thing fly and land?  It looked like it was on rails.

hat's the concept biggest flaw, although it has improved a lot since the 60's obviously.

Modern controls have basically eliminated this as a problem.

[yg1968]

Given that new entrants will be able to bid in the upcoming Commercial Crew Space Transportation Services contract (the RFI was released today), now would be a good time to revive crewed Dream Chaser:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=55039.msg2302155#msg2302155

[kevinof]

Given that new entrants will be able to bid in the upcoming Commercial Crew Space Transportation Services contract (the RFI was released today), now would be a good time to revive crewed Dream Chaser:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=55039.msg2302155#msg2302155

What LV will it fly on and who is going to pay to man rate it? It ain’t Atlas as there are no more and ULA probably won’t do it for Vulcan as they would have to pay for it (and it’s not in the NASA budget) so that leaves New Glenn.

[nacnud]

Or Falcon.

Unlikely but possible.

[yg1968]

Given that new entrants will be able to bid in the upcoming Commercial Crew Space Transportation Services contract (the RFI was released today), now would be a good time to revive crewed Dream Chaser:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=55039.msg2302155#msg2302155

What LV will it fly on and who is going to pay to man rate it? It ain’t Atlas as there are no more and ULA probably won’t do it for Vulcan as they would have to pay for it (and it’s not in the NASA budget) so that leaves New Glenn.

Tory Bruno said that they would human rate Vulcan if the customer asks for it. NASA is considering putting some funding in CCSTS relating to the development and certification of the crew transportation system, so there could be some money for certifying Vulcan (and Dream Chaser). Don't forget that Starliner is in the same situation (i.e. they also need Vulcan to be certified).

[Kiwi53]

Tory Bruno said that they would human rate Vulcan if the customer asks for it. NASA is considering putting some funding in CCSTS relating to the development and certification of the crew transportation system, so there could be some money for certifying Vulcan (and Dream Chaser). Don't forget that Starliner is in the same situation (i.e. they also need Vulcan to be certified).

But Boeing wouldn't be a 'new entrant', so most likely wouldn't get funding to crew-qualify Vulcan

[yg1968]

Tory Bruno said that they would human rate Vulcan if the customer asks for it. NASA is considering putting some funding in CCSTS relating to the development and certification of the crew transportation system, so there could be some money for certifying Vulcan (and Dream Chaser). Don't forget that Starliner is in the same situation (i.e. they also need Vulcan to be certified).

But Boeing wouldn't be a 'new entrant', so most likely wouldn't get funding to crew-qualify Vulcan

My understanding is that you don't have to be a new entrant. The entire transportation system (including the LV) is what is certified, so it could get funding for certification activities.