Author Topic: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision  (Read 287647 times)

Offline Todd Martin

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #440 on: 10/23/2014 01:44 pm »
Excerpt of letter to NASA from Congress, dated yesterday (this sort of NASA stone-walling is exasperating):

"Finally, on September 16, 2014, Subcommittee staff reached out to NASA in order to gain support for facilitating a briefing on the Commercial Crew Transportation Capabilities (CCtCap) contract source selection, as well as the source selection statement. After NASA issued the request for proposals (RFP) for the contract it declined to comment on the procurement so as to not influence the selection. Understanding the sensitive nature of the source selection process, the Committee decided to reserve questions regarding the procurement until after the selection. Similarly, the Committee also withheld queries until after the offerors were briefed on the selection. It is our understanding that at this point all of the offerors have been briefed. Unfortunately, NASA continues to delay providing Congress with information related to this program and the source selection. We are aware that the selection was referred to the Government Accountability Office (GAO) 3 as part of its bid protest process;4 however, this should not preclude NASA providing information to Congress as the statute that governs the protest process states "[a] protective order under this paragraph shall not be considered to authorize the withholding of any document or information from Congress or an executive agency."5 To date, the Committee has not been briefed on the source selection, nor has it received the source selection statement, despite the fact that offerors have been briefed, details were released to the press,6 the GAO is now involved; and NASA has decided to proceed with the contracts.7 Up to this point, NASA has not provided Congress with detailed information related to the CCtCap source selection in almost one year during the "blackout period." We assume the Administration will submit a budget proposal to Congress in the next few months that will include funding for the CCtCap program. Congresses' ability to evaluate this budget request may be challenged by NASA's uncooperative position. We hope that NASA will not expect taxpayers to blindly fund billion-dollar programs absent any information related to the procurement or contract. This Committee has demonstrated a commitment to ensure that American astronauts are once again launched on American rockets from American soil. NASA's refusal to provide necessary updates to Congress may unnecessarily impact these efforts."

Offline abaddon

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #441 on: 10/23/2014 01:49 pm »
Unfortunately, NASA continues to delay providing Congress with information related to this program and the source selection. We are aware that the selection was referred to the Government Accountability Office (GAO) 3 as part of its bid protest process;4 however, this should not preclude NASA providing information to Congress as the statute that governs the protest process states "[a] protective order under this paragraph shall not be considered to authorize the withholding of any document or information from Congress or an executive agency."5 To date, the Committee has not been briefed on the source selection, nor has it received the source selection statement, despite the fact that offerors have been briefed, details were released to the press,6 the GAO is now involved; and NASA has decided to proceed with the contracts.7 Up to this point, NASA has not provided Congress with detailed information related to the CCtCap source selection in almost one year during the "blackout period." We assume the Administration will submit a budget proposal to Congress in the next few months that will include funding for the CCtCap program. Congresses' ability to evaluate this budget request may be challenged by NASA's uncooperative position. We hope that NASA will not expect taxpayers to blindly fund billion-dollar programs absent any information related to the procurement or contract. This Committee has demonstrated a commitment to ensure that American astronauts are once again launched on American rockets from American soil. NASA's refusal to provide necessary updates to Congress may unnecessarily impact these efforts."

Wow.  I don't normally side with Congress... but this is inexcusable.  What is NASA thinking?  Maybe Congress won't like the source selection process, but they are going to find out about it at some point.  Congress is going to need to agree to fund the program, there is no way around that.  I don't get why this is happening, it doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: 10/23/2014 01:49 pm by abaddon »

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #442 on: 10/23/2014 01:55 pm »
Yup.. it's almost like NASA has learnt nothing from the numerous previous times they've gone to Congress with giant budget requests for commercial crew and gotten shocked responses.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline OpsAnalyst

General Shelton seemed to take it pretty personally when SpaceX filed their lawsuit, going so far as to rebuke them publicly and call them "ungrateful."  We can debate whether or not that means he took it "personally," but he was clearly upset about it.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/thebalancesheet/2014/05/20/air-force-general-fires-back-at-spacex-at-space-symposium/11985/

Shelton got reprimanded by Senator McCain for his reactions. He no longer holds his position (he was transferred to another position).

General Shelton retired after a long and distinguished career.  As planned for over a year.
« Last Edit: 10/23/2014 03:38 pm by OpsAnalyst »

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #444 on: 10/23/2014 05:18 pm »
General Shelton seemed to take it pretty personally when SpaceX filed their lawsuit, going so far as to rebuke them publicly and call them "ungrateful."  We can debate whether or not that means he took it "personally," but he was clearly upset about it.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/thebalancesheet/2014/05/20/air-force-general-fires-back-at-spacex-at-space-symposium/11985/

Shelton got reprimanded by Senator McCain for his reactions. He no longer holds his position (he was transferred to another position).

Those two events are not linked.

Offline Atomic Walrus

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #445 on: 10/23/2014 05:33 pm »

Wow.  I don't normally side with Congress... but this is inexcusable.  What is NASA thinking?  Maybe Congress won't like the source selection process, but they are going to find out about it at some point.  Congress is going to need to agree to fund the program, there is no way around that.  I don't get why this is happening, it doesn't make sense.

Seems fairly reasonably, actually.  The source selection documentation contains a lot of sensitive and proprietary information, and Congress isn't exactly known for discretion.  Congress is also likely responsible for the creation of the procurement guidelines being applied by NASA and the GAO that require withholding the information.

Offline veblen

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #446 on: 10/23/2014 05:36 pm »
I thought McCain's dressing down of Shelton was very telling. My takeaway: lawfare is just another aspect of doing business in America. Part of the landscape. Deal with it.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #447 on: 10/23/2014 05:45 pm »
The interim go ahead on the CCtCap contracts can be used by NASA as an excuse to publish the SpaceX and Boeing contracts and milestones.

Offline Todd Martin

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #448 on: 10/23/2014 05:59 pm »
Seems fairly reasonably, actually.  The source selection documentation contains a lot of sensitive and proprietary information, and Congress isn't exactly known for discretion.  Congress is also likely responsible for the creation of the procurement guidelines being applied by NASA and the GAO that require withholding the information.

No, it is not reasonable.  Congress is responsible for funding these contracts and that responsibility requires the ability to provide oversight over the process.  It is NASA that has leaked documents (1 sided only) regarding the selection process.  NASA does not have the moral or legal authority to hide contract details from oversight committees.   

Offline abaddon

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #449 on: 10/23/2014 06:51 pm »
Seems fairly reasonably, actually.  The source selection documentation contains a lot of sensitive and proprietary information, and Congress isn't exactly known for discretion.

Considering Aviation Week and that Washington Post blogger have seen the document in its entirety, that argument doesn't really hold water.

Offline Atomic Walrus

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #450 on: 10/23/2014 08:58 pm »
Seems fairly reasonably, actually.  The source selection documentation contains a lot of sensitive and proprietary information, and Congress isn't exactly known for discretion.

Considering Aviation Week and that Washington Post blogger have seen the document in its entirety, that argument doesn't really hold water.

Keep in mind that there's a legal difference between the actions of individuals leaking a document and the official actions of an agency.  The legal system is path dependent.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #451 on: 10/23/2014 09:11 pm »

Wow.  I don't normally side with Congress... but this is inexcusable.  What is NASA thinking?  Maybe Congress won't like the source selection process, but they are going to find out about it at some point.  Congress is going to need to agree to fund the program, there is no way around that.  I don't get why this is happening, it doesn't make sense.

Seems fairly reasonably, actually.  The source selection documentation contains a lot of sensitive and proprietary information, and Congress isn't exactly known for discretion.  Congress is also likely responsible for the creation of the procurement guidelines being applied by NASA and the GAO that require withholding the information.

The selection document will eventually be made public (as was the case for every other round of commercial crew). It doesn't contain proprietary information.
« Last Edit: 10/23/2014 09:12 pm by yg1968 »

Offline abaddon

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #452 on: 10/23/2014 09:24 pm »
Keep in mind that there's a legal difference between the actions of individuals leaking a document and the official actions of an agency.  The legal system is path dependent.

Sure, and as Congress notes, it is not illegal for NASA to give Congress the documents.

Offline Cthulhus

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #453 on: 11/14/2014 10:23 am »
Hello,

I'm sorry if I'm not on the correct thread but I'm getting lost... I saw some pics on Facebook sent by NASA CCiCap program and it's like the DreamChaser still or back on course...

Can I have please a clarification ? Does SNC DreamChaser still on course (does they "win" with their protestation?)

Here the facebook page :
https://www.facebook.com/NASACommercialCrew?hc_location=timeline

They said : Want to show off your Commercial Crew spirit
or spread the word to family and friends? Download and print your Blue Origin, Boeing Company, NASA Commercial Crew Program, Sierra Nevada Corporation Space Systems and SpaceX collector cards, at
http://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew.

With poster to download...

Thanks !
Don't see the Shuttle, fly it : Space Shuttle Mission

Offline SWGlassPit

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #454 on: 11/14/2014 02:30 pm »
Only the Dragon and CST-100 cards have the "Launch America" logo on them.  SNC is still involved inasmuch as they have CCiCap milestones to complete.

The bid protest has to be decided by (I believe) January 5.

Offline joek

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #455 on: 11/15/2014 05:19 am »
The bid protest has to be decided by (I believe) January 5.
At least one of them; most recent SNC protest has a due date of 17-Feb-2015.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #456 on: 01/07/2015 01:15 am »

The bid protest has to be decided by (I believe) January 5.

And here it is:

http://spacenews.com/gao-denies-sierra-nevada-protest-of-commercial-crew-contract/

Quote
Sierra Nevada, in a statement issued Jan. 5, accepted the decision by the GAO and said it would continue to find alternative avenues to support development of the Dream Chaser vehicle it proposed to NASA. 
« Last Edit: 01/07/2015 01:22 am by Kabloona »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #457 on: 01/20/2015 06:54 pm »
Here is the full GAO decision (21 pages) on the SNC protest:
http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/667979.pdf
« Last Edit: 01/20/2015 06:55 pm by yg1968 »

Offline llanitedave

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #458 on: 01/21/2015 12:37 am »
It's tough for me to argue with that decision!
"I've just abducted an alien -- now what?"

Online vt_hokie

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Re: Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision
« Reply #459 on: 01/21/2015 02:56 am »
It's tough for me to argue with that decision!

I don't argue with the decision as much as the structure of this program.  Seems to me Sierra Nevada never had a realistic chance, so why did we throw away money on a charade that was destined to lead HL-20 to yet another dead end?

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