Dream Chaser shows her fight - SNC protest CCtCap decision

[Chris Bergin]

Does anyone think we should do it right now?

I do, but I've dragged this thread offtopic enough.

Discuss it here instead: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35871.0

Work with splinter threads people, or you'll lose your post, as it's a pain for the mods to be snipping out posts and merging.

[Jim]

Imagine a space program that was bold and fearless. It wouldn't be run by politicians.

And it wouldn't last long.

And have no money

[WindyCity]

The federal judge did not issue a ruling yesterday on SNC's request for an injunction to enforce NASA'S stop-work order. See http://tiny.cc/u0gynx.

[joek]

OK. Thanks for the clarification. My point was that if Boeing scored the best under the evaluation of the evaluation board and according to Gerst's evaluation, it will be difficult for SNC to win its challenge.

Yes, assuming NASA followed the rules.  That is what the GAO will rule on.  The court will rule on whether NASA's override decision was "arbitrary, capricious, or an abuse of discretion ...".

Do we have enough cases of such challenges to have a sense of the historical odds of success?  My guess is this is roughly the equivalent of the onside kick in (American) football, or the proverbial Hail Mary pass...

See GAO Bid Protest Annual Reports to Congress.  No idea what the stats are for court deicions on agency overrides.

[Todd Martin]

I'm pleased to have received a response from my Congressional Representative regarding the SNC protest.  Most politicians enter public service to help their community; if you let them know what's important they will listen and do their best.
 
October 16, 2014
 
Dear Mr. Martin,

Thank you for contacting me to in regards to the protest filed by the Sierra Nevada Corporation against NASA. I appreciate hearing from you on this issue.

On September 26, 2014, the Sierra Nevada Corporation (SNC) filed a challenge with the Government Accountability Office (GAO) over NASA's decision to select Boeing and SpaceX to develop spacecrafts for the Commercial Crew program. SNC has stated the reason for filing the challenge was that their bid was the second lowest of the three finalists, and that the U.S. government would likely spend an additional $900 million by not accepting their proposal. The GAO has until January 5, 2015 to announce a final decision on the claim.

As a member of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee, it is my responsibility to address waste throughout the government. I will closely monitor this situation and I look forward to seeing the final decision released by the GAO. Rest assured that I will continue to work with my colleagues to advocate for responsible spending.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts with me. Please stay in touch by visiting my website at  www.duckworth.house.gov , where you can sign up for my email list, access my voting record and get additional information on important issues facing our country. If I can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.

 


Sincerely,
 
The Honorable Tammy Duckworth
Member of Congress
Illinois' 8th District
 

[Sesquipedalian]

I'm pleased to have received a response from my Congressional Representative regarding the SNC protest.  Most politicians enter public service to help their community; if you let them know what's important they will listen and do their best.

Call me cynical, but most of that looks like a form letter, except for the second paragraph, which is merely a restatement of the facts.

[RonM]

I'm pleased to have received a response from my Congressional Representative regarding the SNC protest.  Most politicians enter public service to help their community; if you let them know what's important they will listen and do their best.

Call me cynical, but most of that looks like a form letter, except for the second paragraph, which is merely a restatement of the facts.

It probably is a form response sent by a staffer, but it is still important to contact your representative. They keep track of correspondence to find out what is important to their constituents. No one notices us complaining in forums.

[rmencos]

The federal judge did not issue a ruling yesterday on SNC's request for an injunction to enforce NASA'S stop-work order. See http://tiny.cc/u0gynx.

I just read an order today where Judge Horn stated that "On October 21, 2014, the court held a hearing in the above captioned protest. Given the urgency to resolve the override issue, the court provided the parties with a verbal decision declining to overrule the override."  It probably means SpaceX and Boeing can get back to work.

[OpsAnalyst]

Marcia Smith's got it:

"Court Declines SNC's Motion to Overrule NASA on CCtCAP Authorization to Proceed"

http://www.spacepolicyonline.com/news/court-declines-sncs-motion-to-overrule-nasa-on-cctcap-authorization-to-proceed

[A_M_Swallow]

Marcia Smith's got it:

"Court Declines SNC's Motion to Overrule NASA on CCtCAP Authorization to Proceed"

http://www.spacepolicyonline.com/news/court-declines-sncs-motion-to-overrule-nasa-on-cctcap-authorization-to-proceed

Good.  Halting Commercial Crew could have done major long term damage between SNC and NASA.

[Coastal Ron]

Halting Commercial Crew could have done major long term damage between SNC and NASA.

No.  Contractors sue the government all the time (and vice versa).  Two years ago Boeing sued the Air Force for $385M, and that hasn't stopped them from getting Air Force contracts.

It's business, not personal.

[A_M_Swallow]

Halting Commercial Crew could have done major long term damage between SNC and NASA.

No.  Contractors sue the government all the time (and vice versa).  Two years ago Boeing sued the Air Force for $385M, and that hasn't stopped them from getting Air Force contracts.

It's business, not personal.

No, it is the halt that would have damaged NASA, triggering revenge.  A big organisation can live with being sued.

[docmordrid]

Marcia Smith's got it:

"Court Declines SNC's Motion to Overrule NASA on CCtCAP Authorization to Proceed"

http://www.spacepolicyonline.com/news/court-declines-sncs-motion-to-overrule-nasa-on-cctcap-authorization-to-proceed

Good.  Halting Commercial Crew could have done major long term damage between SNC and NASA.

Agreed! About time someone injected some common sense into this. Hopefully the GAO does as well.

[newpylong]

Halting Commercial Crew could have done major long term damage between SNC and NASA.

No.  Contractors sue the government all the time (and vice versa).  Two years ago Boeing sued the Air Force for $385M, and that hasn't stopped them from getting Air Force contracts.

It's business, not personal.

Wrong.  The damage has already been done. And it is personal when SNC first calls the selection bogus and then the override (for NASA's own program, not SNC's) "arbitrary and capricious, an abuse of discretion, and is contrary to law."

[SpaceDave]

Halting Commercial Crew could have done major long term damage between SNC and NASA.

No.  Contractors sue the government all the time (and vice versa).  Two years ago Boeing sued the Air Force for $385M, and that hasn't stopped them from getting Air Force contracts.

It's business, not personal.

Wrong.  The damage has already been done. And it is personal when SNC first calls the selection bogus and then the override (for NASA's own program, not SNC's) "arbitrary and capricious, an abuse of discretion, and is contrary to law."

Trust me on this. We don't take it personally in the Air Force and we didn't take it personally when I was at NASA.

The legal terminology "arbitrary and capricious, an abuse of discretion, and contrary to law" is required for this sort of claim -- and is also a very high bar to clear -- and I doubt Gerst feels personally impugned.

[Kabloona]

General Shelton seemed to take it pretty personally when SpaceX filed their lawsuit, going so far as to rebuke them publicly and call them "ungrateful."  We can debate whether or not that means he took it "personally," but he was clearly upset about it.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/thebalancesheet/2014/05/20/air-force-general-fires-back-at-spacex-at-space-symposium/11985/

[Atomic Walrus]

Context is everything for whether a big organization "takes it personally."  In a lot of cases, this is just a matter of doing business.  The technical people are usually fine; the noise tends to come from the business people.  An MBA perspective on a program is always a bit different than the engineering perspective.  Where these types of challenges become a problem is if they seem ill-founded or are persistent. 

I suspect General Shelton felt SpaceX's lawsuit was ill-founded:  the Air Force told SpaceX what they needed to do to qualify, SpaceX didn't get it done in time for the competition so wasn't qualified from the USAF perspective.  The USAF was continuing to work with them and continued to keep the door open for future work.  SpaceX sued instead.  I don't want to get into a debate on the merits of the USAF position - I'm just summarizing what they were thinking. 

Persistent protests are another problem.  If you're constantly arguing and challenging everything, you become difficult to work with.  Why bring on the aggravation?  I don't think anybody is there yet with respect to commercial spaceflight.

[woods170]

Halting Commercial Crew could have done major long term damage between SNC and NASA.

No.  Contractors sue the government all the time (and vice versa).  Two years ago Boeing sued the Air Force for $385M, and that hasn't stopped them from getting Air Force contracts.

It's business, not personal.

Wrong.  The damage has already been done. And it is personal when SNC first calls the selection bogus and then the override (for NASA's own program, not SNC's) "arbitrary and capricious, an abuse of discretion, and is contrary to law."

One of my jobs is with a large company that get's sued by clients and competitors every once in a while. The same language used by SNC we regularly see showing up in the presented legal documents. We don't get upset about it. It's all business. NASA will not get upset about the SNC suit either. There is no damage done.

[newpylong]

Halting Commercial Crew could have done major long term damage between SNC and NASA.

No.  Contractors sue the government all the time (and vice versa).  Two years ago Boeing sued the Air Force for $385M, and that hasn't stopped them from getting Air Force contracts.

It's business, not personal.

Wrong.  The damage has already been done. And it is personal when SNC first calls the selection bogus and then the override (for NASA's own program, not SNC's) "arbitrary and capricious, an abuse of discretion, and is contrary to law."

One of my jobs is with a large company that get's sued by clients and competitors every once in a while. The same language used by SNC we regularly see showing up in the presented legal documents. We don't get upset about it. It's all business. NASA will not get upset about the SNC suit either. There is no damage done.

Yeah? Talk to some people in the agency if you think so. Some have shrugged it off, and some haven't. Legal language or not, SNC is being a PITA. They have every right to do so, and NASA has the right to not care for it.

[AnalogMan]

NASA Statement on Court of Federal Claims Decision
Posted on October 22, 2014 at 12:25 pm by commercial-crew-program

NASA is pleased the U.S. Court of Federal Claims Oct. 21 allowed NASA to proceed with the performance of its Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) contracts while the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) considers the GAO bid protest filed by Sierra Nevada Corporation. NASA will continue to work with Boeing and SpaceX on the contracts that will enable safe and reliable crew transportation to and from the International Space Station on American spacecraft launched from U.S. soil.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/commercialcrew/2014/10/22/nasa-statement-on-court-of-federal-claims-decision/