Fermilab may be close to proving that a fifth force exists

[Star One]

At last something that hints at physics beyond the Standard Model.

Scientists at Fermilab close in on fifth force of nature https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66407099

[whitelancer64]

Dr Mitesh Patel from Imperial College London is among the thousands of physicists at the LHC attempting to find flaws in the Standard Model.

"Measuring behaviour that doesn't agree with the predictions of the Standard Model is the holy grail for particle physics. It would fire the starting-gun for a revolution in our understanding because the model has withstood all experimental tests for more than 50 years."

Muons are similar to electrons which orbit atoms and are responsible for electrical currents, but they are about 200 times as massive.

In the experiment they were made to wobble, using powerful, superconducting magnets.

The results showed that the muons wobbled faster than the standard model said it should. Prof Graziano Venanzoni, of Liverpool University, who is one of the leading researchers on the project, told BBC News that this might be caused by an unknown new force.

"We think there could be another force, something that we are not aware of now. It is something different, which we call the 'fifth force'.

"It is something different, something we don't know about yet, but it should be important, because it says something new about the Universe."

If confirmed, this would represent arguably one of the biggest scientific breakthroughs for a hundred years, since Einstein's theories of relativity. That is because a fifth force and any particles associated with it are not part of the Standard Model of particle physics.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-66407099

[zubenelgenubi]

Moderator reminder:
This is not a physics forum.  Keep discussion focused on potential spaceflight developments of the hypothetical fifth force.

Cranks need not apply.

Thank you.

[CuddlyRocket]

At last something that hints at physics beyond the Standard Model.

The claimed anomalous magnetic moment of the muon has been hinting at physics beyond the Standard Model for quite a while now. The problem is that the calculated value of the magnetic moment from the Standard Model is very uncertain - the calculations are fiendishly difficult as they involve the strong force. The difference between the experimental and calculated values can still be accounted for by the uncertainties.

But here's hoping. I'm sure physicists will be delirious with excitement if the Standard Model is shown to have a crack in it!

[Bob Woods]

Zuben, please give some running room on this until more info comes out.


It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.

[Star One]

Zuben, please give some running room on this until more info comes out.


It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.

As to your latter sentence that was my thinking and why I posted it here. But was unsure if to start a separate thread or not.

[Bob Woods]

Sure sounds like "New Physics" to me.

[Star One]

Sure sounds like "New Physics" to me.

My OP at least was in the Astronomy thread.

[zubenelgenubi]

Moderator:
Yes, I merged duplicate threads and chose "New Physics for Space Technology" as the sub-forum.

[InterestedEngineer]

Moderator:
Yes, I merged duplicate threads and chose "New Physics for Space Technology" as the sub-forum.

Is there a thread history to help get us familiar with this topc, or just the OP above?

[InterestedEngineer]

From the article:

These include the fact that galaxies are continuing to accelerate apart after the Big Bang that created the Universe, rather than the expansion slowing down. Scientists say the acceleration is being driven by an unknown force, called dark energy.

Galaxies are also spinning faster than they should, according to our understanding of how much material is in them. Researchers believe it's because of invisible particles called dark matter, which again are not part of the Standard Model.

While I'm grateful that the authors brought up glaring (easily observable macroscopic) holes in the standard model, The article didn't say how the new "5th" force would affect those holes.

Anyone have any idea what macroscopic effects this "5th force" would have?

[Star One]

Here’s the paper as regards this announcement.

https://muon-g-2.fnal.gov/result2023.pdf

[Mark K]

From the article:

These include the fact that galaxies are continuing to accelerate apart after the Big Bang that created the Universe, rather than the expansion slowing down. Scientists say the acceleration is being driven by an unknown force, called dark energy.

Galaxies are also spinning faster than they should, according to our understanding of how much material is in them. Researchers believe it's because of invisible particles called dark matter, which again are not part of the Standard Model.

While I'm grateful that the authors brought up glaring (easily observable macroscopic) holes in the standard model, The article didn't say how the new "5th" force would affect those holes.

Anyone have any idea what macroscopic effects this "5th force" would have?

Those things are not glaring holes in the Standard Model (of Particle Physics) which says nothing about Dark Energy or Dark Matter. They are more holes for General Relativity, the other main model used for predictions. A new force would mean a new force carrier particle and interactions.  I would think the most immediate space related effect would possibly be some new predictions that would call for some new in space instruments.

[Bob Woods]

For non-tech folks, here is the NY Times story , non-technical.


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/10/science/physics-muons-g2-fermilab.html

[ugordan]

It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.

It's not hard at all.
Call me a grumpy old man, but I fail to see how a tentative new force of nature would automatically help to advance space travel? For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.

This is just wishful thinking.

[InterestedEngineer]

From the article:

These include the fact that galaxies are continuing to accelerate apart after the Big Bang that created the Universe, rather than the expansion slowing down. Scientists say the acceleration is being driven by an unknown force, called dark energy.

Galaxies are also spinning faster than they should, according to our understanding of how much material is in them. Researchers believe it's because of invisible particles called dark matter, which again are not part of the Standard Model.

While I'm grateful that the authors brought up glaring (easily observable macroscopic) holes in the standard model, The article didn't say how the new "5th" force would affect those holes.

Anyone have any idea what macroscopic effects this "5th force" would have?

Those things are not glaring holes in the Standard Model (of Particle Physics) which says nothing about Dark Energy or Dark Matter. They are more holes for General Relativity, the other main model used for predictions. A new force would mean a new force carrier particle and interactions.  I would think the most immediate space related effect would possibly be some new predictions that would call for some new in space instruments.

I might be a bit confused, but doesn't the Standard Model incorporate General Relativity and Quantum Electrodynamics at least as assumptions?

Standard Model doesn't predict particles that interact only be gravity and General Relativity doesn't predict the macro behavior we see.  So it's 6:1 half dozen to the other, the models collectively have a big hole.

off to read the paper to see if they address that last part of the article, or whether it's just the author article throwing off topic stuff.

[InterestedEngineer]

It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.

It's not hard at all.
Call me a grumpy old man, but I fail to see how a tentative new force of nature would automatically help to advance space travel? For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.

Sure it did. The weak force allows us to model fission more accurately, which, while it never flew, full scale prototypes of NTRs were built and tested, and I think someone actually flew a nuclear reactor for orbital power generation (Soviets).

So it didn't help space travel much, but the weak force was involved to some extent.

In the future if we get fusion rockets the weak force will be right there in the models.

[InterestedEngineer]

Here’s the paper as regards this announcement.

https://muon-g-2.fnal.gov/result2023.pdf

The data are blinded by hiding the true value of the
calorimeter digitization clock frequency. This blinding
factor is different for Run-2 and Run-3

I'm already getting impressed.  Blinding in physics experiments.

[Bob Woods]

It's hard to think that a new force wouldn't be applicable to space travel.

It's not hard at all.
Call me a grumpy old man, but I fail to see how a tentative new force of nature would automatically help to advance space travel? For example, how did the (already known) weak force help space travel? Answer: it didn't.

This is just wishful thinking.

The weak force is entwined with boson production. The Z Boson, with the weak force, is referred to as a mediator in the transfer of momentum. My physics understanding is over 50 years old, and I don't claim to be  anything more than an interested observer. But I have thought that the transfer of momentum is intrinsic to movement. If we could develop a method of creating Z Bosons (a proton sized transitory particle) on demand we would have the beginnings of an impulse drive that would not require the exhaust of a propellant.

[ugordan]

From the article:

These include the fact that galaxies are continuing to accelerate apart after the Big Bang that created the Universe, rather than the expansion slowing down. Scientists say the acceleration is being driven by an unknown force, called dark energy.

Galaxies are also spinning faster than they should, according to our understanding of how much material is in them. Researchers believe it's because of invisible particles called dark matter, which again are not part of the Standard Model.

While I'm grateful that the authors brought up glaring (easily observable macroscopic) holes in the standard model, The article didn't say how the new "5th" force would affect those holes.

Anyone have any idea what macroscopic effects this "5th force" would have?

Those things are not glaring holes in the Standard Model (of Particle Physics) which says nothing about Dark Energy or Dark Matter. They are more holes for General Relativity, the other main model used for predictions. A new force would mean a new force carrier particle and interactions.  I would think the most immediate space related effect would possibly be some new predictions that would call for some new in space instruments.

I might be a bit confused, but doesn't the Standard Model incorporate General Relativity and Quantum Electrodynamics at least as assumptions?

Quantum electrodynamics are fully incorporated in the SM, my understanding is even GR works in the weak field limit just fine. It's "only" when you get to very short distance scales/high energies that things start blowing up with infinities, revealing that we need a proper theory of quantum gravity and not an effective one at low energies.