Author Topic: How far off shore have the launch rigs to be to be noise acceptable? (Read 15239 times)

Starships for Scotland · « **on:** 04/27/2021 04:27 pm »

How far off shore have the launch rigs to be to be noise acceptable? Phobos & Deimos.

Slarty1080 · « **Reply #1 on:** 04/27/2021 04:34 pm »

Quote from: Starships for Scotland on 04/27/2021 04:27 pm

How far off shore have the launch rigs to be to be noise acceptable? Phobos & Deimos.

20 miles perhaps.

FlattestEarth · « **Reply #2 on:** 04/27/2021 05:21 pm »

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1191496935250616321

nicp · « **Reply #3 on:** 04/27/2021 06:04 pm »

A further question is where can you launch Super Heavy / Starship such that noise is not going to adversely affect whales / dolphins / porpoises / pick your favorite marine life-form.

Mark K · « **Reply #4 on:** 04/27/2021 06:09 pm »

Quote from: nicp on 04/27/2021 06:04 pm

A further question is where can you launch Super Heavy / Starship such that noise is not going to adversely affect whales / dolphins / porpoises / pick your favorite marine life-form.

Depends on how they launch. the coupling isn't that good between air and water. This isn't sea lauch where the end is stuck in the water. It will be higher up probably. It would be interesting to see the acoustic data.

Starships for Scotland · « **Reply #5 on:** 04/27/2021 06:13 pm »

Just asking as Scotland has plenty old oil rigs.

cuddihy · « **Reply #6 on:** 04/27/2021 06:14 pm »

Quote from: nicp on 04/27/2021 06:04 pm

A further question is where can you launch Super Heavy / Starship such that noise is not going to adversely affect whales / dolphins / porpoises / pick your favorite marine life-form.

Yes, but a fairly easy question to answer. The answer is, anywhere.
There’s no fences in the ocean and marine mammals are known to move around quite a bit and to be surprisingly resilient to human noises. Also not too much acoustic energy moves through the air/sea surface interface, so it’s not a real problem the way underwater explosions or active military sonar may be.

Vultur · « **Reply #7 on:** 04/27/2021 06:42 pm »

Where do the noise limits come from, anyway? I mean, I suppose in regulatory terms from the FAA, but what are they based on (ie how is it determined what's acceptable vs not)?

Starships for Scotland · « **Reply #8 on:** 04/27/2021 06:48 pm »

In Scotland it will be when people on shore get upset.

born01930 · « **Reply #9 on:** 04/27/2021 07:04 pm »

Quote from: Starships for Scotland on 04/27/2021 06:48 pm

In Scotland it will be when people on shore get upset.

If they can suffer a band of bagpipes, I think SS/SH will be barely noticeable

AC in NC · « **Reply #10 on:** 04/27/2021 07:18 pm »

Quote from: Starships for Scotland on 04/27/2021 06:48 pm

In Scotland it will be when people on shore get upset.

Welcome. Have a look around and see how things operate here. It has a certain culture.

Both your threads are probably better as Questions in this Thread https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=52841.0 in the Facilities Section.

And use a google query like this https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anasaspaceflight.com+offshore+noise
to research the many questions where they've probably already been discussed.

Eric Hedman · « **Reply #11 on:** 04/28/2021 06:00 am »

Quote from: Vultur on 04/27/2021 06:42 pm

Where do the noise limits come from, anyway? I mean, I suppose in regulatory terms from the FAA, but what are they based on (ie how is it determined what's acceptable vs not)?

There have been plenty of studies on different types of noises including music for intensity and duration versus hearing damage. There have been studies on noise at and around airports. There are noise abatement procedures on flights at specific airports to keep noise below certain limits. The FAA will have plenty of history to draw on for noise regulations.

Vultur · « **Reply #12 on:** 04/28/2021 06:43 am »

Quote from: Eric Hedman on 04/28/2021 06:00 am

There have been plenty of studies on different types of noises including music for intensity and duration versus hearing damage. There have been studies on noise at and around airports. There are noise abatement procedures on flights at specific airports to keep noise below certain limits. The FAA will have plenty of history to draw on for noise regulations.

Hmm, ok.

I was mostly wondering because the OSHA noise/hearing protection limits I'm familiar with assume an 8-hour-workday exposure, and rocket launches are brief; and because the 20 miles quoted seems really far given what a Shuttle launch sounded like from 3-4 miles away.

Sure, Super Heavy will be larger than Shuttle, but wouldn't noise go down as inverse square since the sound waves would spread out?

Slarty1080 · « **Reply #13 on:** 04/28/2021 07:39 am »

There's also sonic booms on return and the vague possibility of a larger booster later.

Daan · « **Reply #14 on:** 04/28/2021 03:29 pm »

Quote from: Slarty1080 on 04/28/2021 07:39 am

There's also sonic booms on return and the vague possibility of a larger booster later.

What do you mean by "larger booster"? Like Super Heavy with 37 Raptors?

deadman1204 · « **Reply #15 on:** 04/28/2021 03:43 pm »

Quote from: cuddihy on 04/27/2021 06:14 pm

Quote from: nicp on 04/27/2021 06:04 pm
A further question is where can you launch Super Heavy / Starship such that noise is not going to adversely affect whales / dolphins / porpoises / pick your favorite marine life-form.

Yes, but a fairly easy question to answer. The answer is, anywhere.
There’s no fences in the ocean and marine mammals are known to move around quite a bit and to be surprisingly resilient to human noises. Also not too much acoustic energy moves through the air/sea surface interface, so it’s not a real problem the way underwater explosions or active military sonar may be.

You obviously no literally nothing about this. Its one thing to have a guess, but you are attempting to sound authoritative.
The ocean isn't a wide open evenly dispersed area. Sea life gathers in specific areas and depths. 20 miles might be much further out than where whales normally feed. It could also be the exact distance for optimal feeding for them. Ecosystems are far more complex than you suspect.

daveglo · « **Reply #16 on:** 04/28/2021 04:00 pm »

Quote from: Slarty1080 on 04/28/2021 07:39 am

There's also sonic booms on return and the vague possibility of a larger booster later.

The sonic boom issue is MUCH larger than the launch noise. Elon has said the booster would return in similar fashion to F9. While I haven't seen any informed discussion regarding the exact landing approach profile, some trial simulations by onespeed (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=47179.msg2212011#msg2212011) indicate the booster may be supersonic all the way down below 4km altitude. That would put a pretty good shock wave down to ground level, from what I can tell.

Starships for Scotland · « **Reply #17 on:** 04/28/2021 08:43 pm »

Ok I will just wait till Super Heavy flies and find out for real.

jstrotha0975 · « **Reply #18 on:** 04/28/2021 08:50 pm »

There's too many splinter threads. This is just stupid now.

AC in NC · « **Reply #19 on:** 04/28/2021 09:20 pm »

Quote from: jstrotha0975 on 04/28/2021 08:50 pm

There's too many splinter threads. This is just stupid now.

An unfortunate side-effect of Enthusiastic Noobs in combination with a Welcoming Culture. When Customer Service is too good (like here and Chik-Fil-A), your only bad experiences come when you NEED management to be rude.