Author Topic: Suborbital refueling of a rocketplane  (Read 13384 times)

Offline libra

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Suborbital refueling of a rocketplane
« on: 09/01/2019 12:41 pm »
I'm slowly but surely learning about gravity losses and suborbital manoeuvers because I'm a staunch believer in suborbital refueling as a "4th way" of solving the RLV / SSTO / TSTO conundrum (the other three being : VentureStar, X-30 Orient Express, and Skylon - respectively: all rocket, scramjet, and siphon-out-some-atmospheric-air)

what is really interesting is that Mitchell Bunrside Clapp first foray into what become Black Horse happened at the same time as Zubrin aforementioned Skyhook papers: 1993-95.
By 1996 the two joined forces to create Pioneer Astronautics and their Pathfinder rocketplane.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Zubrin jumped onboard the Pioneer Astronautics ship because he hoped to use their Pathfinder as the Skyhook suborbital vehicle. It makes some sense, as the Pathfinder top speed was around Mach 12, equal to HASTOL DF-9 vehicle.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #1 on: 09/02/2019 04:56 am »
Excellent. I'm slowly but surely learning about gravity losses and suborbital manoeuvers because I'm a staunch believer in suborbital refueling as a "4th way" of solving the RLV / SSTO / TSTO conundrum (the other three being : VentureStar, X-30 Orient Express, and Skylon - respectively: all rocket, scramjet, and siphon-out-some-atmospheric-air)

Well at least you are honest. You are a staunch believer in something you do not have a full grasp on. Just keep that honesty - if people put out well reasoned arguments against your idea, don’t dismiss them.

(It is better than the thread of the week where someone new pops in to declare a brand new idea, and they have it all figured out and the forum not accepting it just shows how we are all part of some big aerospace conspiracy. Loosely paraphrased) ;-)

Offline libra

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #2 on: 09/02/2019 03:26 pm »
You mean, the space runway ?  ;) 

Yeah I've followed this forum since 2008 (under varied I.D, i have many lives) and I remember many threads like this indeed.

Pipe-launcher
was pretty fun. Swala is no better.  Say what you want, but in comparison, a brief (3 minutes, average) hook and prop transfer during a suborbital parabola sound workable enough.  Heck, very serious people with aerospace knowledge like our beloved John Goff of Selenian Boondocks and altius and Masten fame, seems to think it might be workable.

https://selenianboondocks.com/2009/11/random-thoughtsorbital-access-methodologies-vii-air-launched-glideforward-tsto-with-exo-atmospheric-suborbital-refueling/

Gary Hudson, Mitch Clapp, Alan Goff (not related, M. FLOC) Rand Simberg... I've (very ) briefly discussed the concept with some of them, from time to time. General consensus: might work. In the sense, doesn't seems to violate any law of physics or rocketry.

I'm preparing a brief text on the matter with the hope of being published by Jeff foust The Space Review (any help would be welcome, incidentally, to augment my chances of being published there). Also a more technical paper and also a work of fiction, an alt-history.

I'm indeed searching what could possibly sink that idea, some kind of tech barier.

So far
- the rendezvous: nothing like ABM vs ICBM, they are on mostly parallel trajectories, not suicide collision courses

- gravity losses: the biggest worry indeed. But what I've found so far, seems manageable

- the brief hooking for prop transfer: F-16 to KC-135 or Soyuz to ISS are somewhat "brutal" manoeuvers a bit like a soft ramming.
Boom rendezvous however is different and might be the answer
https://selenianboondocks.com/2009/11/boom-rendezvous-a-path-not-yet-taken/

Now if anybody see a major technical issue that could ruin the day, please be my guest. The least holes left in the concept, the better.

Offline libra

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #3 on: 09/02/2019 03:38 pm »
...and now for something completely different...

Mind you, I have a little feud with LAR the moderator and for a brief instant I mistook your pseudo for him, which led to some serious head scratching on my side.
I tend to mistook you two, LAR and LAR-S-J, don't ask me why.  ;D ;D ;D

Offline Lars-J

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #4 on: 09/03/2019 12:22 am »
...and now for something completely different...

Mind you, I have a little feud with LAR the moderator and for a brief instant I mistook your pseudo for him, which led to some serious head scratching on my side.
I tend to mistook you two, LAR and LAR-S-J, don't ask me why.  ;D ;D ;D

We are not the same individual. But then again we have never been seen in the same location at once, so there is no proof.  ;D

Offline libra

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #5 on: 09/03/2019 03:48 pm »
A couple of papers I wrote and hope to get published.

Offline libra

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #6 on: 09/05/2019 03:55 pm »
65 downloads, how about that.

 Please provide feedback (including any gapping plot in the reasoning), perhaps by MP not to hijack that thread further...

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #7 on: 09/05/2019 11:54 pm »
Jon Goff doesn't have an H in it.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline libra

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #8 on: 09/07/2019 07:58 am »
Mistake corrected. Proof-reading is welcome, too, after all.  ;D


Offline libra

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #9 on: 09/08/2019 11:06 am »
As for hydrogen peroxide at  airports... I can understand the FAA blow a fuse about it.

how about trying it this way... 

The rocketplanes push back from the gate like ordinary airliners, loaded only with kerosene. They taxi to the end of the runway or a remote, secured area. There - and only there - the oxidizer tank is filled with H2O2 thanks to a pair of trucks stationned there. A pair of 43 mt trucks with H2O2 trailers.

could that work from a safety regulation point of view ?

Offline rakaydos

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #10 on: 09/08/2019 05:47 pm »
As for hydrogen peroxide at  airports... I can understand the FAA blow a fuse about it.

The rocketplanes push back from the gate like ordinary airliners, loaded only with kerosene. They taxi to the end of the runway or a remote, secured area. There - and only there - the oxidizer tank is filled with H2O2 thanks to a pair of trucks stationned there. A pair of 43 mt trucks with H2O2 trailers.

could that work from a safety regulation point of view ?
The problem is you have toxic chemicals stored in an Airplane Emergency Landing area. If an airplane screws up takeoff or landing, and skews to the wrong side as they slide to a stop, that day is going to get even more interesting.

Offline libra

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #11 on: 09/09/2019 10:09 am »
Thanks for the tip. Will take this into account.

An underground storage tank would be less vulnerable to what you suggest - but open a whole different can of worms - digging the hole, ensuring it remain "clean" enough not to detonate the H2O2, things like that.
Or maybe the trucks pump their H2O2 into an underground storage tank and then run away before an aircraft crashes into them.  ;D
Alternative number 3: drive the trucks into a semi-underground bunker able to withstand an aircraft crash. Then again, infrastructure and maintenance costs...

Online john smith 19

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #12 on: 09/10/2019 08:27 pm »
A couple of papers I wrote and hope to get published.
You still don't seem to understand that neither SABRE nor the RR545 were or are LACE designs.  :(
Avoiding air liquefaction alone saved a massive amount of LH2.

You concept does not seem to have much to do with the recovery of an F9 US, but perhaps I've not read enough of your plan yet.

But just remember, inside a computer anything is possible, like making the basic thermodynamic properties of air better than they really are for example.

That little error helped get NASP started and (when a 3rd party finally got to peer review the engineering behind NASP) helped kill it stone dead. After more than a $Bn has been spent first. 
« Last Edit: 09/10/2019 09:07 pm by john smith 19 »
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 2027?. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero. The game of drones. Innovate or die.

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #13 on: 09/10/2019 09:27 pm »
A couple of papers I wrote and hope to get published.

I've read "Suborbital Refueling: A Path Not Taken," (aka TSR SOR.odt) and you appear to be ignoring the gravity losses that occur during the "suborbital refueling" portion of the flight. During the 3-5 minutes you are refueling after booster separation, your rockets are incurring gravity losses. You mention gravity losses, but do not provide a calculation for them. You mention not firing the engines at all (scenario with the greatest gravity losses) and firing the engines at a very low throttle (somewhat better, but you are also burning fuel / oxidizer then), but never calculate the gravity losses for either.

You don't explicitly state this either, but I presume your idea here is two simultaneous launches of these two-stage rockets, with one carrying only fuel, which will rendezvous, dock, and refuel the other right after both perform booster stage separation.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
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Offline libra

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #14 on: 09/11/2019 04:31 am »
Ok

You hit the nail on its head. gravity losses is the trickier part. I'm documenting on that.

Case 1
10 m/s lost. In this case we agree that 120 seconds of refueling (2 minutes) would be a penalty of 1200 m/s.

Case 2
Wikipedia (I know...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_drag

Quote
Thrust is a vector quantity, and the direction of the thrust has a large impact on the size of gravity losses. For instance, gravity drag on a rocket of mass m would reduce a 3mg thrust directed upward to an acceleration of 2g. However, the same 3mg thrust could be directed at such an angle that it had a 1mg upward component, completely canceled by gravity, and a horizontal component of mg× 3 2 − 1 2 {\displaystyle {\sqrt {3^{2}-1^{2}}}} {\displaystyle {\sqrt {3^{2}-1^{2}}}} = 2.8mg (by Pythagoras' theorem), achieving a 2.8g horizontal acceleration.

As orbital speeds are approached, vertical thrust can be reduced as centrifugal force (in the rotating frame of reference around the center of the Earth) counteracts a large proportion of the gravitation force on the rocket, and more of the thrust can be used to accelerate.

Planning to refuel at 5 km/s for keroxide, and 7 km/s for hydrolox. Would the above apply ?

Which bring us to Robert Zubrin and... Speedevil. See the attachement.

Quote
(Zubrin - The hypersonic skyhook - Analog, 1993 and JBIS, 1995)
"Only suborbital flight up to Mach 15 would be needed. (...) The TAV would match speeds with the Skyhook bottom, which is hanging at an altitude outside the  tangible atmosphere. It would use vertical thrusters to negate gravity during the period of rendezvous. The TAV would hover below the tether tip, open its cargo bay and allow its payload to be hooked by a cable car mechanism. Assuming that 30 seconds of thrust-negated gravity are required for the hooking operation, and that hydrolox thruster with a specific impulse of 450 seconds are used, an amount of propellant whose mass is about 3.3 % of the TAV vehicle will have to be expanded during rendezvous.“

So in the end... getting closer and closer from orbit, with the help of centrifugal forces, can the suborbital manoeuver be accomplished with reasonable gravity losses ?

I need feedback about the above point because, indeed, it is key to the concept.

Online john smith 19

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #15 on: 09/11/2019 06:52 am »
Ok

You hit the nail on its head. gravity losses is the trickier part. I'm documenting on that.

Case 1
10 m/s lost. In this case we agree that 120 seconds of refueling (2 minutes) would be a penalty of 1200 m/s.
.
.
.
.

I need feedback about the above point because, indeed, it is key to the concept.
IIRC these sorts of problems are solved by simulation. Identify the forces (drag, lift, thrust, gravity) then split them out into their horizontal and vertical components. Likewise "Steering losses" are the angle of the nozzles relative to the vehicle body, again analyzed into horizontal and vertical components.

Obvious caveats are how fast does the propellant transfer versus how fast is it being burnt in the engines (IIRC Black Horse had the tanker towing the LV to conserve fuel. That's not a conventional flight refueling task) BTW "Flight Refueling Limited" was founded in 1934 (when aircraft engines burned more fuel and aircraft had less range to begin with) in the UK and developed the probe and drogue system for flight refueling in 1949. the idea has been around for a while, but only the military use it.

As for the engineering of this proposed vehicle it's a lot tougher than you think. There are very good reasons why no supersonic aircraft has a visible fan face, unlike commercial aircraft. The only ones that did were turbojets in the 50's and 60's. The rest are turbofans and are protected behind more or less complex inlets to slow the air to about M0.5 (Concorde was a turbojet but needed complex inlets to meet the very demanding flight profile.  Inlet and nacelle design is a non trivial task and adds substantial weight

An aircraft that has a propellant mass fraction of 85% and can take off and land on its own landing gear is a well beyond the common state of practice and AFAIK well beyond the SoA (Note that qualification of using its own landing gear. One of the other tricks RASV used to make near SSTO possible).
« Last Edit: 09/11/2019 06:54 am by john smith 19 »
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 2027?. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero. The game of drones. Innovate or die.

Offline libra

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #16 on: 09/11/2019 02:12 pm »
The attached file features a detailed weight breakdown of the Shuttle orbiter, and also of a derived LH2, air launched SSTO.
Also attached are Black Horse, Black colt, and Skylon weight breakdowns.

What puzzles me, from all this, is that Skylon undercarriage is actually far lighter than undercarriage of the Shuttle orbiter.

Whatever landing or taking-off, internal tanks or no internal tanks, whatever the fuel, fact is that the Shuttle orbiter, at landing, massed 90 mt when the Skylon D1, with the tanks full, mass 325 mt. C1 was 275 mt.

I mean, lets suppose the two vehicles stands, still, on the ground. An orbiter after landing, Skylon before liftoff.
At this point, standing still, Skylon D1 undercarriage has to withstand 325 mt of vehicle. The Shuttle orbiter undercarriage, only 90 mt. Yet the Skylon undercarriage is no more heavy than the orbiter.
Admittedly, the Skylon use a very bold trick: the water brakes. And the Shuttle undercarriage is old heavy mecanic straight out of the 60's.
Also sometimes I wonder how can Skylon even liftoff. Those small wings surely don't make much lift. I think most of the liftoff impulse comes from the rocket brute force thrust. More akind to a JATO liftoff of a B-47 Stratojet... or Mirage IVA, for that matter.

From all this I don't think undercarriage mass would be a serious problem. By contrast wings might be heavy.

I will try to extract undercarriage masses vs vehicle masses for the five vehicles I mentionned - Black Horse, Black Colt, Skylon, Shuttle orbiter, Dan Delong Spaceplane.

Offline libra

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #17 on: 09/11/2019 02:20 pm »
Shuttle orbiter undercarriage: 7222 pound.

Dan Delong air-launched, derived SSTO: 2200 pound.

Black Horse: 1159 pound

Black Colt: 1621 pound

Skylon: 4170 pound.

Well, ok, Skylon undercarriage is much lighter than the Shuttle orbiter. Which is kind of surprising, since the vehicle mass, standing still, is vastly superior (this is C1 at 270 mt, exactly 3 times more than a shuttle orbiter at 90 mt). Can the water brake system explain such difference ?

(english not my native language; somebody please tell me if pound must be plural or not)  ;)

Offline speedevil

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Re: Re: Suborbital ballistic second stage recovery.
« Reply #18 on: 09/11/2019 02:23 pm »
The attached file features a detailed weight breakdown of the Shuttle orbiter, and also of a derived LH2, air launched SSTO.
Also attached are Black Horse, Black colt, and Skylon weight breakdowns.
This is completely, completely off-topic. I suggest you start your own thread.

Offline libra

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Re: Suborbital refueling of a rocketplane
« Reply #19 on: 09/11/2019 02:24 pm »
Fair enough. I asked Chris Bergin about it. Will ask again;

How about displacing these posts to that old thread ?
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=19541.40

Edit/Lar: that thread is quite old, I started a new one

 

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