Isar Aerospace

[Galactic Penguin SST]

Still no post about the other news from ISAR aerospace. ...

Well maybe you can post it...
Not this one I guess?
https://twitter.com/isaraerospace/status/1785932797640613956

@isaraerospace has found a new home and signed a contract with VGP to develop our new company HQ in Vaterstetten near Munich, GER. Our scalable series production will be one of the world's most advanced production facilities for orbital LVs.

More: https://ow.ly/nbKH50RucF2

[Rik ISS-fan]

@Galactic Penguin SST: Yes that one.

[JEF_300]

Look at 50min into the video; ISAR requires one week to produce a new iteration of their engine.

That's the PR blurb section of the video. Tim Dodd tries to find out if they have some competitive edge in their development philosophy, and the answer is: blurb.

Ok, so tell me if I have this correct; you've been saying since at least October that Isar has no competitive advantage, and then when one of the founders of Isar directly says what their competitive advantage is, you call it PR?

That's business plan stuff, not real engineering stuff.

Good! Competitive advantage isn't necessarily an engineering problem, but it is the core of any business plan!

What's their competitive advantage? It's automated production, lack of reliance on outside suppliers, and their potential speed of iteration.

That's a perfectly clear and rational answer to the question.

[bavariablue]

unclear why they get so much funding. Checkout the new NATO collaboration.

[trimeta]

unclear why they get so much funding. Checkout the new NATO collaboration.

Context: Isar Aerospace raises $70 million (including participation from the NATO Innovation Fund).

This brings the total amount raised by Isar to over 400 million euros (>$425M). For reference, it took SpaceX and Rocket Lab $100-200M to reach first launch of their small-launch vehicles.

[Steven Pietrobon]

This brings the total amount raised by Isar to over 400 million euros (>$425M). For reference, it took SpaceX and Rocket Lab $100-200M to reach first launch of their small-launch vehicles.

Virgin Orbit spent over $1.2B and went bust! Having lots of money is not a guarantee for success.

[Rik ISS-fan]

It's true that a lot of funding isn't a guarantee for succes.
Virgin Orbit tried to develop a air-launched rocket. They required a Boeing 747 for this. They developed four different engines.
ISAR aerospace has developed a single engine, in a sealevel and vacuum optimized version, the Aquilla. The out of the ordinary thing about this is the fuel, propane. Tank structure material is mainly composite, Rocketlabs showed this can work.

I think the 70mln is already for the large factory that will enable ISAR aerospace to produce up to 40 launchers annually.
So this isn't required for the maiden launch, it's required for serial production at high rate.
AFAIK ISAR has permission to launch up to 10 launches annually from their launch site at Andoya, Norway.
And they also one selected by CNES as operator for one of the (ELM) Diamond small launcher zones.

edit to add: SpaceX Hawthorne facility roughly has the same area as the new facility for ISAR aerospace.
Their current facility has an area of ~8000m², the new facility will be 40.000m².

[TrevorMonty]

I think they are getting ahead of themselves by overestimating demand and underestimating how long it takes to get operational LV ie 5-10 launches a year.

F9 and Electron took quite afews to reach 10 launches a year. LauncherOne was getting close to 5 before it went bankrupt.  Alpha is another couple years at least from 10 launches per year.

To many startups over capitalise to soon which is partly why VO went bankrupt and RL bought $100m factory for $16m.  Astra are all but bankrupt for similar reasons.

Rough rule of thumb is 1, 3, 6 launches over 3 years. RL with all their Electron are still working to this plan with Neutron.

[JEF_300]

I think they are getting ahead of themselves by overestimating demand and underestimating how long it takes to get operational LV ie 5-10 launches a year.

F9 and Electron took quite afews to reach 10 launches a year. LauncherOne was getting close to 5 before it went bankrupt.  Alpha is another couple years at least from 10 launches per year.

To many startups over capitalise to soon which is partly why VO went bankrupt and RL bought $100m factory for $16m.  Astra are all but bankrupt for similar reasons.

Rough rule of thumb is 1, 3, 6 launches over 3 years. RL with all their Electron are still working to this plan with Neutron.

I mostly agree with this, but Isar has a similarly absurd amount of money as VO did, while having (hopefully) far less overhead, so I'm optimistic it will work out for them.

Also, we should note that both Starship and Vulcan are making an effort to buck that trend this year, so maybe that rule of thumb won't be so significant this time next year. We'll see.

An interesting approach would be to just fly regardless of whether or not you have payload. It would allow the company to build up experience with it's team and with the vehicle, to work out any kinks early, and to build up a record of successful flights. All of which will, presumably, make them more attractive to customers. The cost of the flights without payload could effectively be rolled into the overall R&D cost. No idea if that would be worth it in practice, but it seems better than just continuing blindly down the same path as Virgin Orbit.

[c4fusion]

Also, we should note that both Starship and Vulcan are making an effort to buck that trend this year, so maybe that rule of thumb won't be so significant this time next year. We'll see.

That is true, but both companies have significant launch experience and one of them is designed to be a dependable workhorse designed to slot right in. The other holds the record for most launches in a year by a country mile even if their vehicle is ambitious and audacious.

[JEF_300]

Also, we should note that both Starship and Vulcan are making an effort to buck that trend this year, so maybe that rule of thumb won't be so significant this time next year. We'll see.

That is true, but both companies have significant launch experience and one of them is designed to be a dependable workhorse designed to slot right in. The other holds the record for most launches in a year by a country mile even if their vehicle is ambitious and audacious.

Agreed.

When the big players redefine what's possible, the little guys often take years to catch up. But there are also occasions when they instead seem to go "oh, so that's how it's done", and are there shockingly fast.

I don't have any reason to expect this situation to go one way or the other, so I'm just throwing out the possibility.

[Yggdrasill]

It seems likely that Isar will start doing some sort of stage testing at the orbital launch site at Andøya, Norway, potentially starting tomorrow. https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=54946.msg2619783#msg2619783

It *might* just be testing of the GSE, but the road closure seems too big, in my opinion. They're closing the road approximately where they would close it for an orbital launch.

[Yggdrasill]

Some new information about what's going on at Andøya. Source in google translate: https://www-nrk-no.translate.goog/nordland/klart-for-historisk-rakett-test-pa-andoya-_-ekspert-mener-norge-er-i-ferd-med-a-vinne-romkapplopet-1.17025666?_x_tr_sl=sv&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

In an email, Daniel Metzler said "We are in the final phase before our first test launch. Right now we are preparing a so-called "hot fire" test of the stages of the rocket."

And "If successful, we will go ahead with the launch as quickly as possible."

(I've translated it from Norwegian to English, and it was probably originally in English, so it's been translated from English to Norwegian to English. This isn't ideal for conveying the original meaning intended. Something may be lost in translation.)

[Yggdrasill]

According to the text alert, they closed the road past the orbital launch site at 12:36 CET. So they should be into testing right now.

Edit: Road reopened at 15:24 CET.

[Yggdrasill]

On Wednesday I got a text saying they are planning on testing on Thursday September 5th, Friday September 6th and Monday September 9th, between 12:00 and 20:00.

There was no road closure text on Thursday, but I got one just now. The road past the orbital launch site closed at 12:54 CET, Friday September 6th. That should mean they are back into testing.

Edit: Road reopened at 17:25 CET.

[Yggdrasill]

Road was closed 12:27-18:37 CET September 9th.

[Yggdrasill]

I got another text message they are also planning test activity with road closures on the 12th, 13th and 16th. Same (tentative) times, 12:00 - 20:00.

[Rik ISS-fan]

Andoya space posted another notice. A second period of temporary road closures has been announced for september 16th to 30th September. Possible road closures between 12:00 and 20:00.
https://andoyaspace.no/info-messages/periodevis-stenging-av-fv-7698-2/
I've not found any information on what exactly they are using the road closures for. 
Let's assume that no news is good news, no mishap has occurred. ISAR Aerospace will most likely make an announcement when they have (successfully) completed the test campaign.

[Yggdrasill]

No road closure on the 12th occurred, but the road was closed 12:00-17:12 CET on September 13th.

The road closures don't say all that much, but it is interesting to see if they deviate from the pattern at some point.

[Yggdrasill]

- There was no road closure on the 16th.
- On the 16th they sent out a notice that they intended to perform tests on the 18th, 19th and 20th, 12:00-20:00.
- I just got a message that the road is closed, 12:28 CET today, September 18th. Edit: And it's reopened at 17:13 CET.