Author Topic: Prospective Russian HLVs  (Read 196075 times)

Offline Hyperion5

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Prospective Russian HLVs
« on: 02/07/2013 05:59 pm »
Russia today lacks the HLV capability of its Soviet predecessors in the form of the Energia rocket.  But that hasn't stopped some Russian firms from dreaming big as the Russian economy has rebounded and Roscosmos has seen its funding steadily improved.  We can see the effects already in Russia committing itself to the first inter-planetary missions in 25 years, or since the august years of the USSR.  But will Russia ever commit itself to an HLV, and what form will such a vehicle take?  This thread is dedicated to discussing the various proposed designs and whether any of them will ever get off the ground. 

Here are a few of the prospective designs I've seen proposed so far:


Angara 7:
What is it?  A giant Angara with six booster cores each powered by an RD-191 engine around an enlarged kerolox core (3.9 m) powered by that engine.  Alternative version features a hydrolox core powered by a single RD-0120 engine. 

Known details
Payload to LEO (200 km--51.8 degrees): 35-50 mt (depending on version)
Payload to GEO: 7.6 mt
Launch mass: 1,122-1200 mt

Issues: Besides needing an all-new pad, the hydrolox core version would require reviving the RD-0120 engine, and even the biggest Angara 7 would be outdone by the Sodruzhestvo rocket. 


Energia
What is it?  An LV with four Zenit boosters, each powered by an RD-170 kerolox engine, and a huge 7.1 m central core powered by four RD-0120 hydrolox engines.  It was originally meant to lift the Soviet Space Shuttle, Buran, and also anti-strategic missile defense satellite battle stations to orbit.  Fell out of use in 1992 after 2 launches and has been continually rumored to be on the verge of revival ever since. 

Known details
Payload to LEO (200 km--51 degrees): 95-100 mt
Payload to GEO: 18 mt
Payload able to be launched towards moon (one-launch): 32 mt   
Launch mass: 2,400 mt

Issues: Besides bad Russia-Kazakhstan relations causing problems with simply going back to Baikonur, it would require billions of dollars and reviving the RD-120 engine to work.  The design is also less capable than the proposed Yenisei-5, further hurting its prospects. 


Sodruzhestvo:
What is it?  Essentially a giant 5-core Zenit rocket with a kerolox upper stage powered by a single RD-120 engine (not to be confused with RD-0120). 

Known details
Payload to LEO (200 km--51.6 degrees): 67 mt
Launch mass: 2,132 mt

Issues: While this may be the most practical HLV next to the less capable big Angaras, it would force Russia to rely upon the Ukraine.  Capability also pales in comparison to the Yenisei-5. 


Yenisei-5
What is it?  An Energia killer with four Zenit boosters around a 4.1 m core powered by three RD-0120 engines from the Energia.  It surpasses even the Saturn V in payload to orbit and rivals it as a lunar launcher. 

Known details
Payload to LEO (200 km--51.8 degrees): 125 mt
Payload Mass Fraction: 5.21%
Payload to GEO: 30 mt
Payload able to be launched towards moon (one-launch): 49 mt   
Two-launch scenario: 65 mt
Launch mass: 2,397 mt

Issues: Design requires reviving the RD-0120 engine and rebuilding of many parts of Russia's Far East railway lines if not launching from Baikonur.  Not as cheap to develop as the Sodruzhestvo. 


I'm sure I could cover more, but I'll leave that to others like fregate.  If I had to pick one of these most likely to be built, it'd be the big Angaras, followed by the Sodruzhestvo.  Reviving the Energia wouldn't make much sense if you could outlift it with the Yenisei-5 design.  I'm sure everyone has an opinion on Russian HLVs and whether or not they'll ever get built, so please let us know what you think!   ;D

Special thanks to Anatoly Zak for posting some of the info in English. 

Offline Jim

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #1 on: 02/07/2013 06:11 pm »
And discussions like this are equivalent to debating on how many fairies fit on a pinhead.  Russian HLV's and fairies exist in the same medium (going old school here), nothing but ink on paper. The rebound is not applicable to their space program.
« Last Edit: 02/07/2013 06:12 pm by Jim »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #2 on: 02/07/2013 06:30 pm »
As the old guys who work for $100 a month die off or retire, the Russians are going to have an ever more difficult job of maintaining their current level of development, let alone expand into heavy lift boosters.

Offline Hyperion5

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #3 on: 02/07/2013 06:45 pm »
As the old guys who work for $100 a month die off or retire, the Russians are going to have an ever more difficult job of maintaining their current level of development, let alone expand into heavy lift boosters.

Alright, but Putin did order the pay of many key workers in the sector to be raised by 50% to make it more attractive.  That's one thing Russia's economic revival has let it do besides increasing Roscosmos' budget.  As for the heavy boosters, the only thing standing in the way of the Angara 7 is a new pad and developing a new 3.8 m core.  That is something the Russians have the resources and skill to do still.  Now the biggest Angara 7 might only launch 41 mt if it's got a kerolox core, but that's vastly more than what their Protons can launch today.  Whether it qualifies as "heavy lift" depends on how one defines that category of launcher. 

Offline major_tom

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #4 on: 02/07/2013 07:22 pm »
Isn't it funny that a great majority of this forum consists of discussing NASA powerpoints or 3D renderings that never get off the ground, but somehow discussing russian powerpoints and 3D renderings is looked down upon?

What gives?  ???
« Last Edit: 02/07/2013 07:23 pm by major_tom »
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #5 on: 02/07/2013 08:20 pm »
Thanks for the overview... Some interesting ideas. But it is all powerpoint fantasies. The Angara 7 has the most likelihood of happening by a significant margin, but it is still not very likely in the near future.

I did spot an error, though:
Quote
Yenisei-5
What is it?  An Energia killer with four Zenit boosters around a 4.1 m core powered by three RD-0120 engines from the Energia.  It surpasses even the Saturn V in payload to orbit and rivals it as a lunar launcher.

The core is not 4.1 m - it does not match the images nor does it seem plausible with the performance suggested.

EDIT: And I don't understand how "Yenisei-5" would have more payload capacity than Energia. It really is just a modernized Energia but with one fewer RD-0120 engine, right? So how does that add up?
« Last Edit: 02/07/2013 08:22 pm by Lars_J »

Offline Hyperion5

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #6 on: 02/07/2013 08:31 pm »
Thanks for the overview... Some interesting ideas. But it is all powerpoint fantasies. The Angara 7 has the most likelihood of happening by a significant margin, but it is still not very likely in the near future.

I did spot an error, though:
Quote
Yenisei-5
What is it?  An Energia killer with four Zenit boosters around a 4.1 m core powered by three RD-0120 engines from the Energia.  It surpasses even the Saturn V in payload to orbit and rivals it as a lunar launcher.

The core is not 4.1 m - it does not match the images nor does it seem plausible with the performance suggested.

EDIT: And I don't understand how "Yenisei-5" would have more payload capacity than Energia. It really is just a modernized Energia but with one fewer RD-0120 engine, right? So how does that add up?

If you don't think Anatoly Zak of Russiaspaceweb's info is correct on the Yenisei-5 can be correct, you can go to his website and contact him about it.  I'm only posting what Anatoly has on the vehicle, and what he has suggests the Yenisei's central core is 4.1 m in diameter and lifts 125 mt to LEO.  I'm aware the images don't look right for those figures, but that's what Anatoly Zak has posted.  As for how it does it, well it is a much narrower core than the Energia yet the vehicle's total mass is quite similar.  The reduced drag losses can't hurt.  Perhaps they intend on using common bulkheads and lighter materials to produce that kind of performance from the Yenisei.  I'm sure fregate has some opinions on the matter.

Here's the excerpt on it:

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/yenisei5.html

The use of liquid hydrogen on the core stage as oppose to kerosene fuel would sharply increase the capability of the proposed launch vehicle, enabling it to deliver 125 tons to the low Earth orbit. The payloads to be sent beyond the initial low Earth orbit would be further increased by the use of hydrogen on the proposed space tug dubbed KVTK. It would serve as the third stage of the Yenisei-5 rocket.

The Yenisei-5 launch vehicle would be based in yet-to-be-built launch site in Vostochny in the Russian Far East and become a centerpiece of an ambitious space program, possibly supporting a base on the Moon and even expeditions to Mars.

The central core stage on Yenisei-5 would ignite on the launch pad simultaneously with four kerosene-fueled strap-on boosters equipped with existing RD-170 engines. GKNPTs Khrunichev also promised that the diameter of the first stage modules would allow their transportation by rail. This claim was in contradiction with a quoted diameter of the first stage -- 4.1 meters.
« Last Edit: 02/07/2013 08:41 pm by Hyperion5 »

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #7 on: 02/07/2013 09:09 pm »
Another point about the 4.1 m diameter - it seems like a physical impossibility to squeeze 3 RD-0120 engines onto such a core. It must be a typo.

Offline DFSL

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #8 on: 02/08/2013 01:53 am »
Isn't it funny that a great majority of this forum consists of discussing NASA powerpoints or 3D renderings that never get off the ground, but somehow discussing russian powerpoints and 3D renderings is looked down upon?

What gives?  ???

That's because "SpaceX" has the exclusivity on powerpoint slides around here. Paper projects from this "private" company that so far is financed through public money are more prestigious than everything else.

Offline Prober

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #9 on: 02/08/2013 01:58 am »
As the old guys who work for $100 a month die off or retire, the Russians are going to have an ever more difficult job of maintaining their current level of development, let alone expand into heavy lift boosters.

Alright, but Putin did order the pay of many key workers in the sector to be raised by 50% to make it more attractive.  That's one thing Russia's economic revival has let it do besides increasing Roscosmos' budget.  As for the heavy boosters, the only thing standing in the way of the Angara 7 is a new pad and developing a new 3.8 m core.  That is something the Russians have the resources and skill to do still.  Now the biggest Angara 7 might only launch 41 mt if it's got a kerolox core, but that's vastly more than what their Protons can launch today.  Whether it qualifies as "heavy lift" depends on how one defines that category of launcher. 

its fun to have dreams......but sadly don't think someone has gotten the memo.
 
 
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Offline fregate

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #10 on: 02/08/2013 03:44 am »
Another point about the 4.1 m diameter - it seems like a physical impossibility to squeeze 3 RD-0120 engines onto such a core. It must be a typo.
Why not? FYI - RD-0120 nozzle diameter is 2.42 m. 3 LRE are would have a triangle layout and it should not be a problem even to exceed slightly stage diameter. Please refer how RD-180 LRE had been installed for Atlas-V - engine span exceed stage diameter.
« Last Edit: 02/08/2013 03:45 am by fregate »
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Offline hkultala

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #11 on: 02/08/2013 07:12 am »
Thanks for the overview... Some interesting ideas. But it is all powerpoint fantasies. The Angara 7 has the most likelihood of happening by a significant margin, but it is still not very likely in the near future.

I did spot an error, though:
Quote
Yenisei-5
What is it?  An Energia killer with four Zenit boosters around a 4.1 m core powered by three RD-0120 engines from the Energia.  It surpasses even the Saturn V in payload to orbit and rivals it as a lunar launcher.

The core is not 4.1 m - it does not match the images nor does it seem plausible with the performance suggested.

EDIT: And I don't understand how "Yenisei-5" would have more payload capacity than Energia. It really is just a modernized Energia but with one fewer RD-0120 engine, right? So how does that add up?

If you don't think Anatoly Zak of Russiaspaceweb's info is correct on the Yenisei-5 can be correct, you can go to his website and contact him about it.  I'm only posting what Anatoly has on the vehicle, and what he has suggests the Yenisei's central core is 4.1 m in diameter and lifts 125 mt to LEO.  I'm aware the images don't look right for those figures, but that's what Anatoly Zak has posted.  As for how it does it, well it is a much narrower core than the Energia yet the vehicle's total mass is quite similar.  The reduced drag losses can't hurt. 

The amount of hydrogen that fits into 4.1 is just way too little for 125 tonne payload, It's trivial that his specs are false.

If they pictures are correct, it's just energia with payload on top and and 3 engines instead of 4. And that should make it's LEO capasity slightly smaller than enegia, not bigger. (capasity to BEO might be higher though).

If the pictures are incorrect and it really has only 4.1 meter core stage, then the amount of hydrogen is much smaller and capasity is at the 60 ton class.

I think I know where one of his errors is:

Quote from: yenisei-5 page
"The use of liquid hydrogen on the core stage as oppose to kerosene fuel would sharply increase the capability of the proposed launch vehicle, enabling it to deliver 125 tons to the low Earth orbit. "

So he incorrectly thinks that
1) energija uses kerosine for it's core stage, and just assumes hydrolox gives 1.25 x the capasity of kerosine, and uses that to extrapolate from enegia the 125 ton number. If he wants to use than 1.25 factor he should use that over a rocket which uses kerosine-based core, not energija.
2) the 1.25x might be true for same MASS for the stage, but if the stage uses same VOLUME, hydrolox usually wins nothing, might even lose, as its much less dense.

If the yenisei-5 core stage is 4.1 meters, and 20% longer it's only about 30% more volume than Sodruzhestvo core stage. This means much smaller propellant mass. And Sodruzhestvo has a second stage. Acceleration would be faster so gravity losses would be smaller though, but Sodruzhestvo won't have bad gravity losses either.
So 4.1-meter yenisei-5 would have propably have slightly smaller capasity than Sodruzhestvo, or maybe equal if the lightness of the core stage allows staging the boosters at much higher speed.

But if the core stage is something like 7 meters, then it can have something like 4 times the tank size of Sodruzhestvo, and can then weights about the same as the yenise-5 core, and reach much higher paload capasities than Sodruzhestvo. If his 1.25-factor works over Sodruzhestvo, then the capasity would be something like 84 tons.

Offline owais.usmani

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #12 on: 02/08/2013 07:48 am »
Yenisei-5 and Amur-5 (another name for the biggest Angara) as envisioned by Khurunichev (Got these from NSF and NK forum):

EDIT: so hkultala, as you can clearly see, its not Anatoly Zak who's making up 125mt to LEO for yenisei-5. Rather its Khurunichev themselves.
« Last Edit: 02/08/2013 09:38 am by owais.usmani »

Offline owais.usmani

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #13 on: 02/08/2013 07:52 am »
Also if anyone can answer this, why do they want to reuse RD-0120? If they got the money and they are keen on spending it, why not design a new hydrolox engine? As I understand, the RD-0120 has got a terrible thrust-to-weight ratio.

Offline 360-180

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #14 on: 02/08/2013 08:37 am »
EDS for Amur-5. Summer 2008


Offline major_tom

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #15 on: 02/08/2013 10:34 am »
As the old guys who work for $100 a month die off or retire, the Russians are going to have an ever more difficult job of maintaining their current level of development, let alone expand into heavy lift boosters.

Alright, but Putin did order the pay of many key workers in the sector to be raised by 50% to make it more attractive.  That's one thing Russia's economic revival has let it do besides increasing Roscosmos' budget.  As for the heavy boosters, the only thing standing in the way of the Angara 7 is a new pad and developing a new 3.8 m core.  That is something the Russians have the resources and skill to do still.  Now the biggest Angara 7 might only launch 41 mt if it's got a kerolox core, but that's vastly more than what their Protons can launch today.  Whether it qualifies as "heavy lift" depends on how one defines that category of launcher. 

its fun to have dreams......but sadly don't think someone has gotten the memo.
 
 

Indeed, where the hell are the NASP, the X-33 and the OSP?
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Offline 360-180

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #16 on: 02/08/2013 10:35 am »
Rather its Khurunichev themselves.
21-05-2008 Программа первой совместной научной конференции Российской академии космонавтики имени К.Э.Циолковского и Международной академии астронавтики 'Космос для человечества'
This slides from the presentation of the Khrunichev at the conference in May 2008.

Offline spectre9

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #17 on: 02/08/2013 11:10 am »
Build a big tank 5-8m diameter, put a powerful engine on the bottom and surround it with Angara URM boosters and give it a hydrolox upper stage.

Not that hard.

The world right now only likes medium rockets. Even ESA seems to dislike their own Ariane 5 for being too big.

The question as always is "For what payload?"  :P

Offline fregate

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #18 on: 02/08/2013 01:09 pm »
Phillip,

You missed MRKS-1 family of re-usable LV by Khrunichev - unlike other former or "paper" LV projects at least this one got funds for Preliminary Design. Unfortunately because of Khrunichev 20+ history of Angara design nothing furher would happened
until Angara-5 maiden flight.
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: Prospective Russian HLVs
« Reply #19 on: 02/08/2013 03:43 pm »
Yenisei-5 and Amur-5 (another name for the biggest Angara) as envisioned by Khurunichev (Got these from NSF and NK forum):

EDIT: so hkultala, as you can clearly see, its not Anatoly Zak who's making up 125mt to LEO for yenisei-5. Rather its Khurunichev themselves.

And as you can see from the Krunichev slides, the core is 7.7m in diameter, not 4.1m.

 

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