Author Topic: Starlink direct to cell (was SpaceX & T-mobile event 25 Aug 2022)  (Read 79443 times)

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SpaceX and T-mobile event 25 Aug 2022
« Reply #160 on: 09/12/2022 09:53 pm »
There's a few more too:

- Principal Software Engineer (Direct To Cell)
- Sr. Software Engineer (Direct To Cell)
- Software Engineer (Direct To Cell)
- Communications Integration Engineer (Direct to Cell)
- Partnerships Manager (Direct to Cell)
- Sr. Software Engineer, Data Plane (Direct To Cell)
- Sr. Software Engineer, 4G/5G Protocols (Direct To Cell)
- Sr. Software Engineer, 4G/5G MAC/PHY (Direct To Cell)

That smells a lot like no 3G support. Unclear on 4G VoLTE though.

Do the 5G physical layers add anything more than MIMO and mmWave?  Neither of those really applies.  There are some VoLTE changes, but they're back in the IMS network, and mostly make switchover between mobile spectrum and wifi more seamless.  I'd be really surprised if LTE wasn't fully supported.  (Well, fully supported for text, with voice being on the bubble.)
The original dual mode CDMA/LTE and early non-VoLTE (non HD Voice) Fomats and spectrum phase out:

First in US with other providers having related proposals and plans:

Quote
...
Devices (handsets, IoT/M2M, tablets and air cards) that operate solely on the Sprint CDMA Network
Devices that operate using dual-mode CDMA/LTE or LTE technologies that do not support Voice over LTE (“VoLTE”)
...
https://www.t-mobile.com/support/coverage/t-mobile-network-evolution

ViLTE (video over LTE) and VoLTE however are planned to continue.
« Last Edit: 09/12/2022 10:26 pm by russianhalo117 »

Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX and T-mobile event 25 Aug 2022
« Reply #161 on: 09/21/2022 05:37 am »


Just realized both SpaceX representatives in this T-Mobile commercial are from Swarm:
Sara Spangelo: Founder and CEO of Swarm
Ben Longmier: CTO and Co-Founder of Swarm

Now both are SpaceX's Sr. Director, Satellite Engineering

Offline su27k

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Re: SpaceX and T-mobile event 25 Aug 2022
« Reply #162 on: 11/10/2022 02:44 pm »
Not sure which event this is: It's the Connecting the World from the Skies conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia

SpaceX: 50+ telcos have contacted us about signing T-Mobile-type satellite-to-cell service deals in their territories

Quote from: spaceintelreport.com
PARIS — More than 50 mobile network operators around the world have  solicited SpaceX Starlink to discuss T-Mobile-type partnerships for direct satellite-to-smartphone services on their territories, SpaceX Senior Director Sara Spangelo said.

The apparently unprompted inquiries are expected to lead to agreements with several by the end of this year or soon after, Spangelo said.

“We are trying to move as quickly as we can… to get everybody on-boarded so that by the time we offer the service we have regulatory . . .


https://spacenews.com/apple-lays-the-groundwork-for-emergency-sos-via-satellite-service/

Quote
SpaceX is looking to expand partnerships with mobile operators beyond T-Mobile in the U.S. to provide global services in 2025, SpaceX senior director of satellite engineering Sara Spangelo said Nov. 9.

Spangelo told the Connecting the World from the Skies conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, that more than 50 telcos have reached out about partnering with SpaceX to provide direct-to-smartphone services.

She said several potential partnerships are in the final stages of negotiations, and expects SpaceX to secure three to five of them by around the beginning of 2023.
« Last Edit: 11/11/2022 12:45 pm by su27k »

Offline MP99

Re: SpaceX and T-mobile event 25 Aug 2022
« Reply #163 on: 11/11/2022 12:36 pm »
I'm not sure why it says "unprompted". Elon asked foreign telcos to get in touch about signing up for the service during the announcement event.

Cheers, Martin


Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX and T-mobile event 25 Aug 2022
« Reply #164 on: 12/07/2022 08:32 pm »
Tweet cited below says:

Quote
After the FCC last week authorized SpaceX to deploy 7,500 Gen2 Starlink satellites, the company yesterday filed a request to put payloads on 2,016 of those satellites for its direct-to-cell system with T-Mobile to enable coverage "by mid-2024."

Highlights mine:

Highlights on attached images.

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1600595289995345920

https://fcc.report/IBFS/SAT-PPL-20221206-00170
SAT-PPL-20221206-00170
Quote
Description: SpaceX requests U.S. market access for its German-licensed direct-to-cellular payload to communicate on an unprotected, non-interference basis in the 1910-1915 MHz uplink E-s and 1990-1995 MHz downlink s-E bands PCS G Block with off-the-shelf cellular mob
« Last Edit: 12/07/2022 08:32 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX and T-mobile event 25 Aug 2022
« Reply #165 on: 12/09/2022 07:06 am »
https://twitter.com/sawyermerritt/status/1600596763030786066

Quote
NEWS: SpaceX says its Starlink service with T-Mobile will be able to provide voice, messaging, & basic web browsing at theoretical peak speeds of up to either 3.0 Mbps or 7.2 Mbps peak upload (Earth-to-space) & up to either 4.4 Mbps or 18.3 Mbps on the downlink (space-to-Earth).

twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1600941548375805953

Quote
Important to note that this is *total* bandwidth within a cell, so would be divided among all phones.

Starlink will be great for text messages, voice calls & low res pics. If only a dozen phones are active, which is true in remote regions, then video will work.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1600942011325902849

Quote
But the really mind-blowing thing is that this means your phone will work anywhere on Earth, unless blocked by local government!

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX and T-mobile event 25 Aug 2022
« Reply #166 on: 02/01/2023 12:01 pm »
https://twitter.com/virtuallynathan/status/1620762089987137537

Quote
SpaceX and T-Mobile met with the FCC on January 10th to discuss the Direct-to-Cell application.

Body of the letter:

Quote
On January 10, 2023, representatives of Space Exploration Holdings, LLC and its parent company, Space Exploration Technologies Corp. (collectively,
"SpaceX") and representatives of
T-Mobile USA, Inc. (T-Mobile USA, Inc. and its subsidiaries are referred to collectively as
"T-Mobile") met with representatives of the Commission's International Bureau to discuss Space's pending application for a direct-to-cellular satellite system that will allow wireless subscribers to switch to satellite service when terrestrial networks are unavailable, connecting the unconnected without requiring them to buy a new device or do anything more than sign up for the service.'

During the conversation, SpaceX and T-Mobile provided an overview of the direct-to-cellular system-operating effectively as a cell phone base station in space answered questions from the Commission staff about the application and underlying ITU filings, described the spectrum manager lease notification filed with the Wireless Telecommunications Bureau, and updated the staff on coordination efforts with federal stakeholders.
« Last Edit: 02/01/2023 12:02 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Interesting panel on SAT to cell:

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1635292849150529537

Quote
Next panel up at #SATShow is about sat-to-cell, with:

ST Engineering iDirect CEO Don Claussen

Iridium CEO Matt Desch

SpaceX VP of Starlink enterprise sales Jonathan Hofeller

Lynk Global CEO Charles Miller

Desch: "We are very squarely in this satellite-to-cellular conversion space with Qualcomm," with "a whole number of the Android ecosystem" adopting.

"Plan to evolve beyond just cell" to personal computers, autos, etc.

"Satellite should connect everything everywhere"

Hofeller: SpaceX has a two-fold approach:
1 - Complementing terrestrial towers with cell backhaul
2 - Go beyond complementing to provide high-speed low-latency service, and a LEO constellation as "best equipped to do that."

Miller: We think sat-to-cell "is going to grow to be the biggest category in satellite."

Mobile wireless is "a $1 trillion a year industry and the biggest unsolved problem in the industry is mobile hotspots," so "it's a huge opportunity."

Miller: "If you can't get the cost of the satellite down, when you're mass producing, to well under $1 million then you're in trouble."

"Lynk marginal cost per satellite we have in orbit today is under $200,000"

Claussen: "As a ground systems providers, we have to figure out how to distill this" into "a single platform."

Moderator: Starlink has 2,500 satellites in orbit? or 3,000?

*Hofeller holds up 4 fingers*

Desch: "Just say a gazillion"

Hofeller: "We're moving rapidly to a world of abundance when it comes to capacity on orbit."

Moderator: Is there enough launch capacity?

Hofeller: When we were launching Iridium it was once a month, it was unheard of. Now at twice a week, "and it's not crazy to think that the boss will push for more."

Desch: "I believe you should follow the money" in terms of the potential of sat-to-cell, "how much has been invested."

"Investors are pretty smart, unless they're investing in banks in California, and in the last year or two there has been some investment in this year."

Desch: Mobile network operators have not much money behind sat-to-cell, and I believe total investment to date from MNOs in this "is less than $100 million," and "it's probably less than 50."

Miller: I "deeply respect" Desch but it reminds me of Nokia's CEO "in about 2005 or 2006 talking about the iPhone."

"If you're conservative, you wait too long, and you don't have conviction, ... you miss phase change."

Miller: Desch is right that MNOs "are conservative" and "are not Silicon Valley type investors. They're not used to betting risk capital."

Hofeller: "We're definitely wrong, we just don't know how wrong we are" about the opportunity. "We're going to learn a lot by doing --  not necessarily by overanalyzing -- and getting out there, working with the telcos."

Hofeller: Starlink now has "well over a million users," and SpaceX is building 6 next-generation satellite per day, as well as 1000s of user terminals daily.

Hofeller: SpaceX plans to "start getting into testing" its Starlink satellite-to-cell service "this year."

Offline bulkmail

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https://direct.starlink.com now states "wherever you may be on land, lakes, or coastal waters."

What about International waters, what are the regulatory requirements (if any) to provide LTE or 5G at the High seas?

Or is that restriction due to lack of inter-satellite links capacity in general or lack of ISL capability on the direct-to-cellular equipped satellites?

Also, will direct-to-cell work from inside an airplane over land?
« Last Edit: 11/19/2023 02:17 pm by bulkmail »

Offline Asteroza

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https://direct.starlink.com now states "wherever you may be on land, lakes, or coastal waters."

What about International waters, what are the regulatory requirements (if any) to provide LTE or 5G at the High seas?

Or is that restriction due to lack of inter-satellite links capacity in general or lack of ISL capability on the direct-to-cellular equipped satellites?

Also, will direct-to-cell work from inside an airplane over land?

I suppose EEZ's might be a convenient guide for which countries/MNO's/MVNO's licensing to match with, but deep ocean outside of EEZ's would be weird.

Presumably it would be easier for a cellphone in a plane to connect to an airplane internal microcell/picocell that has Starlink backhaul.

Offline bulkmail

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I suppose EEZ's might be a convenient guide for which countries/MNO's/MVNO's licensing to match with, but deep ocean outside of EEZ's would be weird.

Presumably it would be easier for a cellphone in a plane to connect to an airplane internal microcell/picocell that has Starlink backhaul.

Wikipedia mentions "Coastal shipping", also US EPA/EU EEA environmental agencies using the term "coastal waters" - all three with different meanings (lenghts).

So, I'm not sure if it's Territorial waters (12nm) - that are fully under the littoral state control, or EEZ (200nm) - where some international arrangements begin to play.

For comparison: Lynk states "continuous global coverage" (although unclear if "surface" may refer only to "land surface"), EEZ and "connectivity in international waters and anywhere on Earth". Now International waters and EEZ partially overlap, but "anywhere on Earth" is unambiguous...

so, is it just that none of the current telecom partners of Starlink is licensed/interested in providing roaming beyond coastal waters (whatever the definition)? But some of the Lynk partners are?

Or Starlink will try to get a MNO license themselves to serve those regions? Starlink maritime has license there for dish frequencies, so maybe they want to get one for LTE/5G?

For the airplane - agree it's better to use the microcell (or WiFi), but wondering if direct-to-cell connection will technically work trough the airframe.

Offline Nomadd

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 We used micro/pico cells over vsat for disasters, but the rule was you could only use them where that particular carrier was already authorized to operate.
 Cell licensing can be pretty Byzantine.
« Last Edit: 11/23/2023 08:34 am by Nomadd »
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline raptorx2

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SpaceX's latest Ex Parte was created and filed yesterday regarding the ongoing"squabble" with Omnispace over interference concerns.

"The companies have supported these requests with robust non-interference showings based on both simulations and ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS.

There has been torrid debate about whether SpaceX actually launched experimental licensed D2D prototype payloads under German authority with the first V2.0Mini launches 6-1 (Feb 2023)  6-2 (April 2023) several of which had highly publicized early failures and were deorbited. Can you provide "Actual Interference Measurements" without the corresponding spacecraft on-orbit.

TIA

Online mn

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SpaceX's latest Ex Parte was created and filed yesterday regarding the ongoing"squabble" with Omnispace over interference concerns.

"The companies have supported these requests with robust non-interference showings based on both simulations and ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS.

There has been torrid debate about whether SpaceX actually launched experimental licensed D2D prototype payloads under German authority with the first V2.0Mini launches 6-1 (Feb 2023)  6-2 (April 2023) several of which had highly publicized early failures and were deorbited. Can you provide "Actual Interference Measurements" without the corresponding spacecraft on-orbit.

TIA

The same document also says in the next sentence "and look forward to learning more through testing on-orbit", I think that implies that up to now their testing was not on-orbit.

Offline raptorx2

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Yes, testing on-orbit in the United States under FCC authority.  SpaceX needs FCC authority to launch and operate  "US flagged payloads" that are necessary to enter into Spectrum Manager Lease Agreemens with a US terrestrial providers.

SpaceX noted in Dec. 2022 that it intended to launch/operate D2D authority with a German licensed payload and requested "US Market Entry"  So SpaceX could test on-orbit German payloads offshore CONUS  with Experimental German authority

Offline SF anders

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To use Starlink on your cell phone, will you need a portable user terminal or will it connect directly to satellites in orbit?

Offline c4fusion

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To use Starlink on your cell phone, will you need a portable user terminal or will it connect directly to satellites in orbit?
Directly. iPhones already have this feature for emergency calls with Globalstar.

Offline Zed_Noir

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To use Starlink on your cell phone, will you need a portable user terminal or will it connect directly to satellites in orbit?
It is direct to to your smartphone that is the most recently available in the market. Not older smartphones.

Just a reminder this Starlink direct to smartphone service only have voice and text initially.

Offline Asteroza

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To use Starlink on your cell phone, will you need a portable user terminal or will it connect directly to satellites in orbit?
Directly. iPhones already have this feature for emergency calls with Globalstar.

Globalstar is not what people are calling D2D (or D2C). That's unique frequencies and systems bespoke to Globalstar, that newer iPhones have the necessary hardware for. It's in the same vein as Qualcomm providing hardware support for Iridium for android smartphone chips (which apparently no smartphone maker took them up on...)

Starlink D2D is actual current 4G/5G frequencies and formats, so there is in theory no mods needed for existing smartphones (aside from the doppler shift accommodations, which some smartphones may be unable to do). Starlink, SpaceMobile and Lynk.Global depend on this unmodified cellular terminal capability as their main selling point.

Offline bulkmail

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Is there a way to ping (@) forum members in reply? I think there are a few people with direct experience from the VSAT and telecom industries - maybe they can share what the regulations apply in the Ocean, which may answer why Lynk states "continuous global coverage" and "anywhere on Earth", while Starlink limits coverage to "on land, lakes, or coastal waters"...

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