Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2

[snotis]

New rough calculation for new high performance user terminal proposed by SpaceX:

Area x Aperture efficiency x Maximum Transmit Duty Cycle:

GENERAL POPULATION/UNCONTROLLED:
2496 cm² x 74.2% x 15.5% = 287

OCCUPATIONAL/CONTROLLED:
2496 cm² x 74.2% x 33% = 611.1

Doing a very rough approximation of capabilities between the two:

Area x Aperture efficiency x Maximum Transmit Duty Cycle:

UT1: 1809.5 cm² x 57% x 11% = 113.5
New UT: 1030.1 cm² x 74% x 14% = 144.2

New UT about 27% more capable.

How about the new dish?

new dish  is  50 x 30 cm, antenna size 48 x 29 cm
BUT!!! is very important  that
Aperture efficiency is 74%  (for UT1 is only 57%)
Maximum Transmit Duty Cycle is 14% (for UT1 is only11%)

Summary - Gain is the same, Download speed  the same , Upload speed will be   about 25% better..

[Reynold]

Each StarLink satellite has 16 beams and can serve 2000+ users

more
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/each-starlink-satellite-has-16-beams-can-serve-2000-users-pekhterev/

Interestingly, there is a reply to that LinkedIn article that says each satellite has 3 downlink antennas and 1 uplink antennas, and each can do 8 beams x 2 polarizations, for a total of 48 beams down and 16 up.  That is quite a few potential customers, though obviously still not something that can serve cities.  No idea if the person replying is correct, of course, but it seems like pretty specific information. 

[envy887]

Each StarLink satellite has 16 beams and can serve 2000+ users

more
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/each-starlink-satellite-has-16-beams-can-serve-2000-users-pekhterev/

Interestingly, there is a reply to that LinkedIn article that says each satellite has 3 downlink antennas and 1 uplink antennas, and each can do 8 beams x 2 polarizations, for a total of 48 beams down and 16 up.  That is quite a few potential customers, though obviously still not something that can serve cities.  No idea if the person replying is correct, of course, but it seems like pretty specific information.

The number of antennas, polarizations and "beams" information is straight from the SpaceX FCC filings, except that "beams" should really read "channels". SpaceX has 2,000 MHz of spectrum for user downlink and splits it into 8x channels of 250 MHz each.

However, it's not clear what the minimum angular separation is needed to reuse downlink channels, or that each antenna can use each channel exactly once per polarization.

[Aaronb]

Apologies for cluttering the feed, but after many failed searches I'll just post and ask for forgiveness later.

I want to know what the technical reason for not being able to port forward dishy? If someone can explain or link any past replies about the subject that would be great.

(I work in A/V and have lots of clients that want high-speeds in the middle of no where... but it is hard to integrate with rti/control4 etc without this, usually end up using starlink just for keystones, ap..)

[DigitalMan]

Apologies for cluttering the feed, but after many failed searches I'll just post and ask for forgiveness later.

I want to know what the technical reason for not being able to port forward dishy? If someone can explain or link any past replies about the subject that would be great.

(I work in A/V and have lots of clients that want high-speeds in the middle of no where... but it is hard to integrate with rti/control4 etc without this, usually end up using starlink just for keystones, ap..)

I'm still on the list and don't have it yet, but if it uses the 10.x.x.x subnet, like I have heard, it is not routable on the public internet.

[Aaron_Space]

I want to know what the technical reason for not being able to port forward dishy? If someone can explain or link any past replies about the subject that would be great.

Current information from https://support.starlink.com:

What IP address does Starlink provide?
Starlink today currently provides a DHCP issued Carrier Grade NAT (CGNAT) non-routable IPv4 address in the 100.64.0.0/10 range.

Note - as Starlink continues to expand and upgrade our global internet service infrastructure and rollout new capabilities, some users may see different IP address behavior (ex. publicly routable addresses, IPv6, non-CGNAT)

Will Starlink provide a publicly routable DHCP or Static IP IPv4 address?
Yes. Starlink plans to support this functionality in the future. We do not yet have an estimated time when this will be available to customers.

[su27k]

Starlink Premium service: https://www.starlink.com/premium

Starlink Premium has more than double the antenna capability of Starlink, delivering faster internet speeds and higher throughput for the highest demand users, including businesses. Order now to reserve, deliveries start in Q2 2022.

Designed specifically for high demand users, Starlink Premium helps ensure bandwidth for critical operations even during times of peak network usage.

Starlink Premium users can expect download speeds of 150-500 Mbps and latency of 20-40ms, enabling high throughput connectivity for small offices, storefronts, and super users across the globe.

With Starlink, there are no long-term contracts, no data caps, and no exclusivity requirements.

Your Starlink Premium Kit arrives with everything you need to get online including your Starlink, wifi router, cables and base.

Starlink Premium is designed for improved performance in extreme weather conditions. Users will also benefit from 24/7, prioritized support.

[MechE31]

Starlink Premium service: https://www.starlink.com/premium

Starlink Premium has more than double the antenna capability of Starlink, delivering faster internet speeds and higher throughput for the highest demand users, including businesses. Order now to reserve, deliveries start in Q2 2022.

Designed specifically for high demand users, Starlink Premium helps ensure bandwidth for critical operations even during times of peak network usage.

Starlink Premium users can expect download speeds of 150-500 Mbps and latency of 20-40ms, enabling high throughput connectivity for small offices, storefronts, and super users across the globe.

With Starlink, there are no long-term contracts, no data caps, and no exclusivity requirements.

Your Starlink Premium Kit arrives with everything you need to get online including your Starlink, wifi router, cables and base.

Starlink Premium is designed for improved performance in extreme weather conditions. Users will also benefit from 24/7, prioritized support.

For those curious, it's $2500 for the dish + $50 shipping and $500/month for premium. It required a $500 deposit today if you wanted to reserve.

[Mandella]

I want to know what the technical reason for not being able to port forward dishy? If someone can explain or link any past replies about the subject that would be great.

Current information from https://support.starlink.com:

What IP address does Starlink provide?
Starlink today currently provides a DHCP issued Carrier Grade NAT (CGNAT) non-routable IPv4 address in the 100.64.0.0/10 range.

Note - as Starlink continues to expand and upgrade our global internet service infrastructure and rollout new capabilities, some users may see different IP address behavior (ex. publicly routable addresses, IPv6, non-CGNAT)

Will Starlink provide a publicly routable DHCP or Static IP IPv4 address?
Yes. Starlink plans to support this functionality in the future. We do not yet have an estimated time when this will be available to customers.

So what does this mean to me, a simple residential user planning to use Starlink for streaming and gaming and such? Is there any capability I'm losing compared to Viasat?

[vsatman]

Each StarLink satellite has 16 beams and can serve 2000+ users

more
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/each-starlink-satellite-has-16-beams-can-serve-2000-users-pekhterev/

Interestingly, there is a reply to that LinkedIn article that says each satellite has 3 downlink antennas and 1 uplink antennas, and each can do 8 beams x 2 polarizations, for a total of 48 beams down and 16 up.  That is quite a few potential customers, though obviously still not something that can serve cities.  No idea if the person replying is correct, of course, but it seems like pretty specific information.

// It is mistake . Antenna can receive or trasmit 1..5..10..20..50  beams.  But important  another : you have in Ka 2000 MHz in 2 polarisation. Total are 4000 MHz (it is for service and TT&C beams) .  Beam in Ku  is 240 MHz .  4000 /240 bp 16 plus something fot TT&S and intervals between beams

[vsatman]

However, it's not clear what the minimum angular separation is needed to reuse downlink channels, or that each antenna can use each channel exactly once per polarization.

If we have in fider link  in Ka (between GW and Sat)  only the same 2000 MHz (or 4000 MHz in both polarisation),  frequency reuse in Ku  impossible - no additional capacity for it ..

[envy887]

However, it's not clear what the minimum angular separation is needed to reuse downlink channels, or that each antenna can use each channel exactly once per polarization.

If we have in fider link  in Ka (between GW and Sat)  only the same 2000 MHz (or 4000 MHz in both polarisation),  frequency reuse in Ku  impossible - no additional capacity for it ..

There are multiple ground station antennas per sat, too. They could be reusing the Ku spectrum as well, by connecting to multiple ground stations in different directions with enough angular separation to avoid interference.

[envy887]

I want to know what the technical reason for not being able to port forward dishy? If someone can explain or link any past replies about the subject that would be great.

Current information from https://support.starlink.com:

What IP address does Starlink provide?
Starlink today currently provides a DHCP issued Carrier Grade NAT (CGNAT) non-routable IPv4 address in the 100.64.0.0/10 range.

Note - as Starlink continues to expand and upgrade our global internet service infrastructure and rollout new capabilities, some users may see different IP address behavior (ex. publicly routable addresses, IPv6, non-CGNAT)

Will Starlink provide a publicly routable DHCP or Static IP IPv4 address?
Yes. Starlink plans to support this functionality in the future. We do not yet have an estimated time when this will be available to customers.

So what does this mean to me, a simple residential user planning to use Starlink for streaming and gaming and such? Is there any capability I'm losing compared to Viasat?

I don't think it's any different from Viasat's normal residential service that way. Unless you have the Viasat business service, you wouldn't notice.

[su27k]

US rejects charge that Starlink satellites endangered China’s space station

WASHINGTON: The United States, in an official “note verbale” to the United Nations, has refuted China’s unusual diplomatic accusation that SpaceX’s Starlink satellites have endangered, and continue to endanger, its crewed space station.

“If there had been a significant probability of collision involving the China Space Station, the United States would have provided a close approach notification directly to the designated Chinese point of contact,” asserts the Jan. 28 missive filed with the UN Office of Outer Space Affairs in Vienna.

Beijing, in its own Dec. 3 note verbale to the same UN office, complained that on two occasions — once in July 2020 and once in October 2021 — the station’s newest core module, Tianhe, had to dodge a Starlink to avoid a crash. The complaint also asked the UN to “remind States parties” (i.e. the United States) about their obligations under the 1967 Outer Space Treaty to ensure that their space operators follow the treaty’s provisions. The move was politically odd, both in the fact that it seemingly came out of the blue and that the Office of Outer Space Affairs has no official role in mediating such disputes.

The US Note verbale to the UN: https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/oosadoc/data/documents/2022/aac.105/aac.1051265_0.html

[su27k]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1488916075781799942

SpaceX standard antenna production rises rapidly this year, so those with orders shouldn’t have to wait long.

Note, Starlink can only support a limited number of users in an area, so best to order early.

[wannamoonbase]

The rate of Antenna production and its increases would be interesting to know, but of course they don't have to share anything.

We'll probably figure it out by how many people are getting it.

The cost per unit would be good to know too and see how much they have brought the cost down. 

I think they need to get into the 100's of thousands per month eventually.

[vsatman]

There are multiple ground station antennas per sat, too.

definitely not. The satellite has only 2 Ka-band parabolic antennas, and only works with 1 gateway at all times. One antenna is working, the second is aimed at another gateway for handover..

[Nomadd]

There are multiple ground station antennas per sat, too.

definitely not. The satellite has only 2 Ka-band parabolic antennas, and only works with 1 gateway at all times. One antenna is working, the second is aimed at another gateway for handover..

No. Handoffs take about a second. They're not going to keep half their ground capability shut down waiting for one.

[envy887]

There are multiple ground station antennas per sat, too.

definitely not. The satellite has only 2 Ka-band parabolic antennas, and only works with 1 gateway at all times. One antenna is working, the second is aimed at another gateway for handover..

No. Handoffs take about a second. They're not going to keep half their ground capability shut down waiting for one.

Plus, we know satellites switch cells every 15 seconds. They probably time switching ground stations to coincide with switching cells, so there's no disruption to the connection.

[vsatman]

No. Handoffs take about a second. They're not going to keep half their ground capability shut down waiting for one.

Design OneWEB & StarLink Gen1  is very  similar, you can say Musk in 2016 copied the first version of StarLink from OneWEB. And OneWEB described everything in detail and unambiguously in its application for the FSS from 2016.

//Each OneWeb satellite will have 16 nominally identical user beams, operating in Ku-band, each
consisting of a non-steerable highly-elliptical spot beam. There are also two identical steerable
gateway beam antennas, operating in Ka-band, on each OneWeb satellite, and each of these
antennas creates an independently steerable circular spot beam. The 16 Ka-band uplink channels
in one gateway receive beam (the one tracking the servicing gateway) are converted to 16 Kuband downlink channels, each one routed to one of the 16 user beams (“forward links”),
nominally at 250 MHz bandwidth. Additionally, 16 different Ku-band uplink channels from the
same 16 user beams are converted to 16 Ka-band downlink channels and sent back to the same
gateway transmit beam (“return links”), each having a nominal channel bandwidth of 125 MHz.
The second gateway beam is tracking the next gateway earth station for handover procedures

No operator in their right mind will interrupt the service for a while while the antenna is slowly tuned to another gateway. strange to talk about this in 2022