Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 2

[jpo234]

ESA head says Europe needs to stop facilitating Elon Musk’s ambitions in space

You have one person owning half of the active satellites in the world. That’s quite amazing. De facto, he is making the rules. The rest of the world including Europe... is just not responding quick enough.

So what is he actually proposing they do?

Landing rights, this is the only leverage they have against Starlink. Although I believe Starlink already got landing rights in major EU countries, so I'm guessing this is why Aschbacher is not happy.

I don't read it that way. Aschbacher has sounded the alarm that Europe risks being left behind in space on multiple occassions now. He wants more investment, the rest is editorializing by the FT.

[hektor]

Le patron d'Arianespace dénonce le "risque de monopolisation" de l'espace par SpaceX

The massive launch of satellites into low orbit by the American SpaceX for its Starlink constellation created a "risk of de facto monopolization" of space which undermines the sustainability of its operation, denounced the head of Arianespace Stéphane Israël.
...

I already said it but I expecting more and more European lawfare against Starlink and SpaceX in general.

This is a repeat of previous European statements.

[vsatman]

I know this sounds ranty but all the BS being spouted by all the older space/com companies just chaps my butt!  Compete or get the hell out of the way!  Tired of these industries getting all bent out of shape because they got use to not competing and seemed to have forgot how to....so they throw fits instead.   

I think   equal rights for USA telecom companies in Europe and European telcos  in USA is the most correct way.

 that is, it is necessary to prohibit SpaceX from creating its 100% subsidiaries in Europe, and, following the example of the United States, to oblige that 75% of the shares in them should belong to European businessmen ...

Nothing personly only business ...

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

I know this sounds ranty but all the BS being spouted by all the older space/com companies just chaps my butt!  Compete or get the hell out of the way!  Tired of these industries getting all bent out of shape because they got use to not competing and seemed to have forgot how to....so they throw fits instead.   

I think   equal rights for USA telecom companies in Europe and European telcos  in USA is the most correct way.

 that is, it is necessary to prohibit SpaceX from creating its 100% subsidiaries in Europe, and, following the example of the United States, to oblige that 75% of the shares in them should belong to European businessmen ...

Nothing personly only business ...

Good point.

The main goal of Starlink international usage is to increase the total revenue without increasing the total costs back to SpaceX/Starlink. A not wholly owned subsidiary has to purchase the bandwidth in bulk to then resell it to it's subscribers. But the result is that that increases to total revenue that the constellation puls in which then funds new sats launch and other top corporate costs plus will generally increase profit levels because the almost fixed costs are distributed across more users.

In general it's a solid business practice that can greatly increase Starlink's general usage and revenue sources to many countries.

[wannamoonbase]

I know this sounds ranty but all the BS being spouted by all the older space/com companies just chaps my butt!  Compete or get the hell out of the way!  Tired of these industries getting all bent out of shape because they got use to not competing and seemed to have forgot how to....so they throw fits instead.   

I think   equal rights for USA telecom companies in Europe and European telcos  in USA is the most correct way.

 that is, it is necessary to prohibit SpaceX from creating its 100% subsidiaries in Europe, and, following the example of the United States, to oblige that 75% of the shares in them should belong to European businessmen ...

Nothing personly only business ...

Maybe that's where SpaceX st

I know this sounds ranty but all the BS being spouted by all the older space/com companies just chaps my butt!  Compete or get the hell out of the way!  Tired of these industries getting all bent out of shape because they got use to not competing and seemed to have forgot how to....so they throw fits instead.   

I think   equal rights for USA telecom companies in Europe and European telcos  in USA is the most correct way.

 that is, it is necessary to prohibit SpaceX from creating its 100% subsidiaries in Europe, and, following the example of the United States, to oblige that 75% of the shares in them should belong to European businessmen ...

Nothing personly only business ...

Good point.

The main goal of Starlink international usage is to increase the total revenue without increasing the total costs back to SpaceX/Starlink. A not wholly owned subsidiary has to purchase the bandwidth in bulk to then resell it to it's subscribers. But the result is that that increases to total revenue that the constellation puls in which then funds new sats launch and other top corporate costs plus will generally increase profit levels because the almost fixed costs are distributed across more users.

In general it's a solid business practice that can greatly increase Starlink's general usage and revenue sources to many countries.

Yeah, if there needs to be ownership in a country then start a subsidiary with SpaceX owning as much as they can.  Then depending how you structure costs and such maybe the subsidiary pays SpaceX for launches etc.  So it could probably be structured to be a good deal for SpaceX (but not as good as owning 100%).

It's annoying to hear established players complaining about innovation that kicks them in the outdated business model.

SpaceX is 18 to 0 years ahead of Arianespace and pulling away.

[JayWee]

...
SpaceX is 18 to 0 years ahead of Arianespace and pulling away.

It's not like Elon didn't warn them couple of years ago with Ariane6 being a dead-end.

[OTV Booster]

ESA head says Europe needs to stop facilitating Elon Musk’s ambitions in space

You have one person owning half of the active satellites in the world. That’s quite amazing. De facto, he is making the rules. The rest of the world including Europe... is just not responding quick enough.

So what is he actually proposing they do?

Landing rights, this is the only leverage they have against Starlink. Although I believe Starlink already got landing rights in major EU countries, so I'm guessing this is why Aschbacher is not happy.

I don't read it that way. Aschbacher has sounded the alarm that Europe risks being left behind in space on multiple occassions now. He wants more investment, the rest is editorializing by the FT.

More investment is only part of it. EU has announced plans for a reusable booster. Wanna bet against it being over weight, over budget and over the event horizon? The young guys get it but the old guys are old school space. It's the attitude that makes the difference.

[Asteroza]

ESA head says Europe needs to stop facilitating Elon Musk’s ambitions in space

You have one person owning half of the active satellites in the world. That’s quite amazing. De facto, he is making the rules. The rest of the world including Europe... is just not responding quick enough.

So what is he actually proposing they do?

Landing rights, this is the only leverage they have against Starlink. Although I believe Starlink already got landing rights in major EU countries, so I'm guessing this is why Aschbacher is not happy.

I don't read it that way. Aschbacher has sounded the alarm that Europe risks being left behind in space on multiple occassions now. He wants more investment, the rest is editorializing by the FT.

More investment is only part of it. EU has announced plans for a reusable booster. Wanna bet against it being over weight, over budget and over the event horizon? The young guys get it but the old guys are old school space. It's the attitude that makes the difference.

Arianspace's just announced MaiaSpace is allegedly 2026 for a productized Themis, so not that far away...


But getting huffy over Starlink when OneWeb could have been bought at the bankruptcy sale (which launches from CSG at least, even if they are Soyuz) would have made things very EU/ESA. Following up OneWeb v1 with a surge push using MaiaSpace would have had the same vertical integration as SpaceX/Starlink.

[su27k]

I know this sounds ranty but all the BS being spouted by all the older space/com companies just chaps my butt!  Compete or get the hell out of the way!  Tired of these industries getting all bent out of shape because they got use to not competing and seemed to have forgot how to....so they throw fits instead.   

I think   equal rights for USA telecom companies in Europe and European telcos  in USA is the most correct way.

 that is, it is necessary to prohibit SpaceX from creating its 100% subsidiaries in Europe, and, following the example of the United States, to oblige that 75% of the shares in them should belong to European businessmen ...

Nothing personly only business ...

Not sure if this 75% share requirement is hypothetical or reality. If it's reality, does SES or Telesat have a 75% share subsidiary in the US when they're selling services in the US?

[vsatman]

Not sure if this 75% share requirement is hypothetical or reality. If it's reality, does SES or Telesat have a 75% share subsidiary in the US when they're selling services in the US?

but do they sell ??
As far as I know, they are selling the satellite capacity  to US goverment (if it need outside USA in Iraq  or Afganistan or US telco and Broadcast companies/  And  US Telco sell service for US endcustomer (American companies or citizens).
Or I don’t know something ??
And of course - Foreign company can ask FCC about   exception from this Act.

Note - SES in USA is former Satellite Operator  Americom with own fleet  (SES bought it in  2001...)

[su27k]

Not sure if this 75% share requirement is hypothetical or reality. If it's reality, does SES or Telesat have a 75% share subsidiary in the US when they're selling services in the US?

but do they sell ??
As far as I know, they are selling the satellite capacity  to US goverment (if it need outside USA in Iraq  or Afganistan or US telco and Broadcast companies/  And  US Telco sell service for US endcustomer (American companies or citizens).
Or I don’t know something ??
And of course - Foreign company can ask FCC about   exception from this Act.

Note - SES in USA is former Satellite Operator  Americom with own fleet  (SES bought it in  2001...)

Both SES and Telesat got C-band clearing payout from FCC, so I assume they're selling something on this band in the US.

[dondar]

Le patron d'Arianespace dénonce le "risque de monopolisation" de l'espace par SpaceX

The massive launch of satellites into low orbit by the American SpaceX for its Starlink constellation created a "risk of de facto monopolization" of space which undermines the sustainability of its operation, denounced the head of Arianespace Stéphane Israël.
...

I already said it but I expecting more and more European lawfare against Starlink and SpaceX in general.

This is a repeat of previous European statements.

I only took a few classes in French after college so after reading the original I ran it through Google Translate and got pretty much the same results.  "Bitch, Bitch, Bitch. Whine, Whine, Whine. FUD, FUD, FUD.  Blame others to distract from one's one failure."   Rather unbecoming for le patron d'Arianespace especially considering that he didn't offer a single recommendation on how to compete in this new marketplace, only complaints that someone else got there first.  These folks are acting like somebody moved their cheese, when in reality SpaceX developed a new way to make cheese while they have been hemming and hawing rather than bending metal.  Six months later and the same tune is just as unbecoming when we hear it from ESA.   European citizens in remote areas are being offered technology that their local telecoms can't, and the call from the head of ESA is that other leaders should deny their citizenry of this bounty, rather than asking why he as the leader of ESA failed to develop competitive local solutions.  Expect more of the same in the decades to come.

they are all politicians and consider everything using political language. More of it European political system transforms  more and more into specific governmental heavy administrative system of the (re)distribution (which is even much more restrictive than regulatory) nature.
What it means? They think about everything in the terms of "distributing", "shares", "participation", "rights", "privileges" etc. SpaceX activity put them outside of the action circle and makes the whole circus simply redundant. Hence the backslash.
P.S. All existing (and proposed) Arian designs are political constructs and are designed using above-mentioned vocabulary. It is extremely naive to even consider that the next variant will be any better as commercial product.

[vsatman]

Both SES and Telesat got C-band clearing payout from FCC, so I assume they're selling something on this band in the US.

Yes, of cource  They sell capacity to  american broadcater like BellTv, AirBox (all SES Customer)
more  https://www.satbeams.com/packages

[hektor]

Interview CCN with ESA Director General Josef Aschbacher

[su27k]

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1470318873115246594

ESA DG Josef Aschbacher says his comments in an FT interview about SpaceX’s Starlink satellites dominating LEO were misinterpreted as criticism. “Elon Musk is doing great things,” he says, but still need to address safe management of orbits. #WSBW

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1470793545867055107

In a #WSBW panel on constellations, more discussions about multi-orbit (LEO/MEO/GEO) solutions. SpaceX’s Jonathan Hofeller says he’s open to exploring with GEO operators to see where Starlink+GEO works. But, have yet to find such a solution that makes sense.

[vsatman]

In a #WSBW panel on constellations, more discussions about multi-orbit (LEO/MEO/GEO) solutions. SpaceX’s Jonathan Hofeller says he’s open to exploring with GEO operators to see where Starlink+GEO works. But, have yet to find such a solution that makes sense.

The only case where I see  GEO+LEO as useful is a service for large cruise ships (with 6000 passengers and 2000 crews ) For it  2-3-5-10 gigabits will be needed...

At the same time, you can divide the traffic from ship  into those that are sensitive to low latency and those that are indifferent.

[vsatman]

News from Paris (World Satellite Business Week 2021)
_________________
Jonathan Hofeller, SpaceX vice president of Starlink and Commercial Sales, addressed SpaceX’s go-to-market strategy for LEO constellation Starlink, comparing it to how SpaceX tackled the launch market. Hofeller described how civil, military, and commercial launch customers were all key to SpaceX’s success.

“If you just focused on commercial [or NASA or military] launch, we would not have been successful,” Hofeller said. “The three-legged stool is a paradigm that we also apply to Starlink. We have our consumer service, B2B enterprise service, and our government service as well. We’re putting effort in it across all three. It is a lot of work, but we’re focused on doing it right and learning in the process.”

Hofeller gave an update on Starlink’s reach, and said the service has “well over 100,000 subscribers both on the consumer and enterprise side,” and operates in more than 20 countries. More than 230 different nations have placed pre-orders for Starlink service, and the company is working to enter those markets to provide service. The Gen-1 constellation is complete, and SpaceX will begin launching Gen-2 in the next month or so, with inter-satellite links and Polar Orbit to target northern latitudes.

Hofeller also said that Starlink is expanding its enterprise service, and expects to be more public about its enterprise offerings in the future.

“A lot of folks say that we’re focused on direct-to-consumer. Certainly that has been a large portion of our effort to date. But we are also currently on cellphone towers, airplanes, schools, and hospitals — you name it. There’s no lack of need for connectivity. [We] continue to expand upon those enterprise offerings and solidify them,” he said. 
_______________________________
https://www.satellitetoday.com/broadband/2021/12/16/satellite-operators-debate-go-to-market-strategies-for-leo-and-geo-broadband/

But in United Nations  are only 193 country  today....
+Vatican?? Monaco?? Scotland??

[Nomadd]

But in United Nations  are only 193 country  today....
+Vatican?? Monaco?? Scotland??

As far as I know the only non UN recognized by most countries are Vatican City, Kosovo, Palestine and Taiwan.

[su27k]

But in United Nations  are only 193 country  today....
+Vatican?? Monaco?? Scotland??

https://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/countries_of_the_world.htm

Since South Sudan became an independent state on 9 July 2011, there are now 195 independent sovereign nations in the world (not including the disputed but de facto independent Taiwan), plus some 60 dependent areas, and several disputed territories, like Kosovo.

[su27k]

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1473343227411550214

200Mbps from a @SpaceX #Starlink terminal mounted to a @Tesla #ModelX while driving down the freeway at 100km/h. Many thanks to @Jays200 for awesome steel fabrication.
Can’t wait for full Starlink roaming ability @elonmusk

A lot of improvement still coming just from software updates to satellites & terminals