Author Topic: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF  (Read 73795 times)

Offline dgates

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #60 on: 12/28/2015 01:10 am »
Ok, I give!  Thanks! :).

But.... If one pulled a few engines.......
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Offline John Alan

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #61 on: 12/28/2015 01:42 am »
Ok, I give!  Thanks! :).

But.... If one pulled a few engines.......

Nah...  ;)
If SpaceX decides to start air freighting S1 stages anywhere...
It will involve refueling
...and suborbital hops
 :o   ;D
« Last Edit: 12/28/2015 01:44 am by John Alan »

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #62 on: 12/28/2015 02:41 am »
~25,600kg according to http://spaceflight101.com/spacerockets/falcon-9-v1-1-f9r/

That's 56,320lbs.

EDIT: And it should be noted that the CH-53K does not practically exist yet, and the CH-53E (the actual operational helicopter) can only lift 14,500kg.

Normally you couldn't used 2 helos. The F9 core is so long that you can have a helo lifted from each end. But while possible, doesn't seem very practical or cheap.

IIRC the CH-53K have the same external lift capability as the CH-53E due to using the same external cargo handling system.

Offline JAFO

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #63 on: 12/28/2015 03:45 am »
Ok, I give!  Thanks! :) .

But.... If one pulled a few engines.......

What if they used unladen swallows to lift it?
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Offline Ludus

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #64 on: 12/28/2015 04:15 am »
Ok, I give!  Thanks! :) .

But.... If one pulled a few engines.......

What if they used unladen swallows to lift it?

...an African or a European Swallow?

Offline llanitedave

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #65 on: 12/28/2015 05:25 am »
Speaking of flyback --


once the stage is set up to use chilled fuel and subcooled oxidizer, could it do a flyback with the normal-temperature liquids, or would chilling equipment have to be available on the barge, or wherever?
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Offline guckyfan

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #66 on: 12/28/2015 06:04 am »
Speaking of flyback --


once the stage is set up to use chilled fuel and subcooled oxidizer, could it do a flyback with the normal-temperature liquids, or would chilling equipment have to be available on the barge, or wherever?

I have been thinking of that, too. But I thought about the second stage. After a coast phase the LOX would no longer be subcooled, I expect. So the Merlin-vac will have to use LOX at near boiling point.

Offline John Alan

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #67 on: 12/28/2015 06:37 am »
Speaking of flyback --


once the stage is set up to use chilled fuel and subcooled oxidizer, could it do a flyback with the normal-temperature liquids, or would chilling equipment have to be available on the barge, or wherever?

I have been thinking of that, too. But I thought about the second stage. After a coast phase the LOX would no longer be subcooled, I expect. So the Merlin-vac will have to use LOX at near boiling point.

IMHO... ;)
There may be max throttle % values based on RP1/LOX temps...
Subcooled can run at 100% thrust... if warmer fluids... some less value is ok...
I think the cooled RP1 is a bigger factor in letting the engine run higher thrust levels then we know...
I'm thinking this was likely researched and limits explored in Texas on the engine test stands...

Online Lars-J

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Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #68 on: 12/28/2015 06:49 am »
Speaking of flyback --


once the stage is set up to use chilled fuel and subcooled oxidizer, could it do a flyback with the normal-temperature liquids, or would chilling equipment have to be available on the barge, or wherever?

I have been thinking of that, too. But I thought about the second stage. After a coast phase the LOX would no longer be subcooled, I expect. So the Merlin-vac will have to use LOX at near boiling point.

IMHO... ;)
There may be max throttle % values based on RP1/LOX temps...
Subcooled can run at 100% thrust... if warmer fluids... some less value is ok...
I think the cooled RP1 is a bigger factor in letting the engine run higher thrust levels then we know...
I'm thinking this was likely researched and limits explored in Texas on the engine test stands...

I doubt it. I think the subcooling is just to get more propellant in the same volume. Once it reaches the engine, it has already warmed up a bit, so the difference will be close to moot. M1D being qualified for higher thrust is likely not linked to subcooling, it just happened to be an upgrade that was available and made sense with more propellant.
« Last Edit: 12/28/2015 04:46 pm by Lars-J »

Offline Dante80

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #69 on: 12/28/2015 06:56 am »
Yes. Sub-cooling the propellant is done so that you carry more of it, not to get more performance.

Actually, you would need to heat the RP-1 (before loading it on the stage) instead of cooling it to enable better stage performance (per unit of propellant mass).
« Last Edit: 12/28/2015 07:20 am by Dante80 »

Offline dgates

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #70 on: 12/28/2015 12:33 pm »
Ok, I give!  Thanks! :).

But.... If one pulled a few engines.......

Turns out, not really workable.  Removing all nine engines would reduce the lift by roughly 10,000 lbs.  if we start with 50,000 lbs it still does not get into aerial lift weight ranges, or if it did it, would be right at the upper range.  I was thinking of a landed stage move that might be a few miles, say from an offshore island or a barge when the barge was needed for another landing quickly.

However, at 25 tons, a landed stage is a comparatively easy crane lift.  A crawler crane was used because of the good stability offered when doing a "lift then move" operation. 
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Offline CardBoardBoxProcessor

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #71 on: 12/28/2015 12:52 pm »
DO we think eventually they will make a crane or vehicle or machine for this operation or continue to use a crane?

Offline dgates

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #72 on: 12/28/2015 01:28 pm »
DO we think eventually they will make a crane or vehicle or machine for this operation or continue to use a crane?

A on site transport erector (TE) might make sense at a high reuse / landing rate.  In any case a crane lift would be needed *somewhere*, as stages accumulate after successful landings.  I would not think SpaceX would wish to store landed stages on the TE. At current launch rates though, the practical "crane, translate to horizontal, truck over to wherever needed" works ok, seeing as how they got it done and done in less than 72 hours.
« Last Edit: 12/28/2015 01:29 pm by dgates »
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Offline edkyle99

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #73 on: 12/28/2015 01:49 pm »
DO we think eventually they will make a crane or vehicle or machine for this operation or continue to use a crane?
This question illustrates the still to be developed infrastructure that will be needed to handle returned stages if re-usability pans out.  A foremost need will be a hangar for storing/refurbishing/checking out returned stages.  Ground handling equipment will obviously be needed.  The crane setup at LZ-1 looks like an R&D arrangement rather than a long-term operational system.  If they use the barges, a completely different set of equipment will be needed.  And so on.

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Online ugordan

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #74 on: 12/28/2015 01:54 pm »
Crawling before walking, etc. This is only the first ever returned stage and I'd bet SpaceX can already see where the booster itself can/should be improved, let alone handling procedures/infrastructure. We're barely in the is cost-efficient reuse actually possible? phase now.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #75 on: 12/28/2015 02:38 pm »
Ok, I give!  Thanks! :).

But.... If one pulled a few engines.......

Turns out, not really workable.  Removing all nine engines would reduce the lift by roughly 10,000 lbs.  if we start with 50,000 lbs it still does not get into aerial lift weight ranges, or if it did it, would be right at the upper range.  I was thinking of a landed stage move that might be a few miles, say from an offshore island or a barge when the barge was needed for another landing quickly.

However, at 25 tons, a landed stage is a comparatively easy crane lift.  A crawler crane was used because of the good stability offered when doing a "lift then move" operation. 
An MI-26 can lift 44,000 pounds.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline cscott

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #76 on: 12/28/2015 03:05 pm »
Normally you couldn't used 2 helos. The F9 core is so long that you can have a helo lifted from each end. But while possible, doesn't seem very practical or cheap.

The Russians tried it!
http://www.buran-energia.com/documentation/documentation-akc-air-transportation.php
Quote
The newly developed MI-26 helicopter of the weight-lifting capacity of 26 tons was offered for delivery by helicopter. According to this project, bulky cargoes of high mass (airframe and rocket bays) tied with cables had to be carried by 2 or 3 helicopters, and such ‘bundle’ had to move along the route, at the best fit height and flying speed. As the basis for such version the example of helicopters application for ‘crane’ operations was brought, but there was still no experience of flights ‘in bundles’.

Test flights with mock-up cargo having the configuration of a tank section of the rocket were carried out at LII. The tests revealed a complexity and risk of such kind of delivery. During one of the flights at a suddenly arisen weak turbulence of atmosphere, a ‘pendulous’ swing of cargo on the cables started which caused a disturbance of the helicopters flight stability, owing to what the crews were compelled to dump the cargo.

EDIT: to be clear (if you didn't read TFA) the Russians tried it and after trying to make it work *dismissed it as impractical*.
« Last Edit: 12/28/2015 06:40 pm by cscott »

Online Lars-J

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #77 on: 12/28/2015 04:48 pm »
Lifting the stage with a helicopter is a terrible idea, why keep bringing it up?

Offline Dante80

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #78 on: 12/28/2015 04:57 pm »
It's not a terrible idea at all, it would actually speed rapid re-usability considerably for barge landings.

It's simply impossible to do, since the helicopter to do the job doesn't exist. Thus, the whole discussion is a priori moot.
« Last Edit: 12/28/2015 04:58 pm by Dante80 »

Offline RoboGoofers

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #79 on: 12/28/2015 05:25 pm »
It's not a terrible idea at all, it would actually speed rapid re-usability considerably for barge landings.

It's simply impossible to do, since the helicopter to do the job doesn't exist. Thus, the whole discussion is a priori moot.

then use rigid airships!  ;)
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, ah, your opinion, man.

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