Author Topic: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF  (Read 73720 times)

Online matthewkantar

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #40 on: 12/27/2015 04:29 pm »
I wonder why they went with two 48 wheeled sleds instead of the over-the-road Falcon first stage  rig?

Matthew

Online Jakusb

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #41 on: 12/27/2015 04:32 pm »

I wonder why they went with two 48 wheeled sleds instead of the over-the-road Falcon first stage  rig?

Matthew
1) transporter likely is in McGreggor or Hawtorn?
2) maybe corners are too much of a challenge for transporter? The last corner for HIF seemed quite sharp.
Anyway clearly they had a good reason...

Offline meekGee

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #42 on: 12/27/2015 04:36 pm »


I've been up in manlifts thousands of times (literally).  Going up and attaching a lifting system is a 10 minute job, and it's pretty much perfectly safe.  It's done tens of thousands of times every day in construction.

Thanks for that.

Quote
Why make something harder than it has to be?

Indeed.

Maybe people are wondering how one crane can do both...?
I guess this crane has two cables and can operate one cable with man lift independently from the cable that will be attached to the stage..?
No no no...

Two independent parallel cables in close proximity is a recipe for disaster.

I played with cables and cranes a little bit, I would not recommend such a plan.

Crane from one side, man lift at 120 degrees to it, that would be my take.

Or some auto latch, but man, you'd have to make damn sure all the snaps clicked in.
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Online Jakusb

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #43 on: 12/27/2015 04:39 pm »



I've been up in manlifts thousands of times (literally).  Going up and attaching a lifting system is a 10 minute job, and it's pretty much perfectly safe.  It's done tens of thousands of times every day in construction.

Thanks for that.

Quote
Why make something harder than it has to be?

Indeed.

Maybe people are wondering how one crane can do both...?
I guess this crane has two cables and can operate one cable with man lift independently from the cable that will be attached to the stage..?
No no no...

Two independent parallel cables in close proximity is a recipe for disaster.

I played with cables and cranes a little bit, I would not recommend such a plan.

Crane from one side, man lift at 120 degrees to it, that would be my take.

Or some auto latch, but man, you'd have to make damn sure all the snaps clicked in.

I have seen it before. Many cranes in the Netherlands use it to lift poles to underneath the hammer block. Poles are then hammered deep into the group for foundation purposes.
As long as you do not lower both cables at the same time, you should be ok..

Online Lee Jay

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #44 on: 12/27/2015 04:44 pm »


I've been up in manlifts thousands of times (literally).  Going up and attaching a lifting system is a 10 minute job, and it's pretty much perfectly safe.  It's done tens of thousands of times every day in construction.

Thanks for that.

Quote
Why make something harder than it has to be?

Indeed.

Maybe people are wondering how one crane can do both...?

They had a manlift on the pad with the crane.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38149.msg1464804#msg1464804
« Last Edit: 12/27/2015 04:46 pm by Lee Jay »

Online Lee Jay

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #45 on: 12/27/2015 04:52 pm »


I've been up in manlifts thousands of times (literally).  Going up and attaching a lifting system is a 10 minute job, and it's pretty much perfectly safe.  It's done tens of thousands of times every day in construction.

Thanks for that.

Quote
Why make something harder than it has to be?

Indeed.

Maybe people are wondering how one crane can do both...?
I guess this crane has two cables and can operate one cable with man lift independently from the cable that will be attached to the stage..?
No no no...

Two independent parallel cables in close proximity is a recipe for disaster.

It's done all the time.  That's why many larger cranes have a main cable and an auxiliary cable.  I've done it with boom cranes and with bridge cranes.  It's no big deal if you use a little skill.

Offline meekGee

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #46 on: 12/27/2015 05:00 pm »


I've been up in manlifts thousands of times (literally).  Going up and attaching a lifting system is a 10 minute job, and it's pretty much perfectly safe.  It's done tens of thousands of times every day in construction.

Thanks for that.

Quote
Why make something harder than it has to be?

Indeed.

Maybe people are wondering how one crane can do both...?
I guess this crane has two cables and can operate one cable with man lift independently from the cable that will be attached to the stage..?
No no no...

Two independent parallel cables in close proximity is a recipe for disaster.

It's done all the time.  That's why many larger cranes have a main cable and an auxiliary cable.  I've done it with boom cranes and with bridge cranes.  It's no big deal if you use a little skill.
Maybe, but I'd rather not have a man cage and a load on the same boom and right near each other.

I'd have the manlift out-of-line of the boom, and also out-of-swing.

These things can (admittedly  rarely) go south awfully fast.

Especially here when you want both the lift hat and the man cage loose at the same time.  It takes very little for he two cables to start twisting if contact is made.  Then someone releases tension in one cable to try to fix it, and it's off to the races....

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Offline Dante80

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #47 on: 12/27/2015 05:24 pm »
I wonder why they went with two 48 wheeled sleds instead of the over-the-road Falcon first stage  rig?

Matthew

Maybe it was what they had available at the time.

Also, recovery might be a slightly different process than the way the S1 is normally transported cross-country shrouded from the factory. The distances here are minuscule in comparison.
« Last Edit: 12/27/2015 05:33 pm by Dante80 »

Online Lee Jay

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #48 on: 12/27/2015 05:26 pm »
Maybe, but I'd rather not have a man cage and a load on the same boom and right near each other.

You would pretty much never do that.

Offline ugordan

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #49 on: 12/27/2015 05:31 pm »
I wonder why they went with two 48 wheeled sleds instead of the over-the-road Falcon first stage  rig?

They already used this before for short site-to-site transport around the Cape. Below, DSCOVR booster being transferred from one of the Hangar buildings to SLC-40.

Offline rnataraja

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #50 on: 12/27/2015 05:34 pm »
Next things on stage are static fire tests and another LEO recovery?

Offline AJW

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #51 on: 12/27/2015 05:37 pm »
The main cable is pulled to the top.   The cage is raised with no other cables around it.  Once the cage is at the top, the crane moves the cage over the stage and the main cable is lowered and the person in the cage connects the cable to the top of the stage.  The crane now backs up and lowers the man cage.

No, I'm not in construction, but this doesn't appear to be rocket science.
We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives.

Online Lee Jay

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #52 on: 12/27/2015 05:54 pm »
The main cable is pulled to the top.   The cage is raised with no other cables around it.  Once the cage is at the top, the crane moves the cage over the stage and the main cable is lowered and the person in the cage connects the cable to the top of the stage.  The crane now backs up and lowers the man cage.

No, I'm not in construction, but this doesn't appear to be rocket science.

That's a lot harder than it sounds.  First, you need to have control over where the main cable is (because the lifting spreader bar/attachment rig needs to be over the load center) and the basket (because the humans need to be able to reach all of the attachments) separately.  Second, the lifting rig may be heavier than you might think (it includes the weight of the ball/block, the slings and the bar/rig itself) and thus may compromise the very stringent safety standards for lifting people with a crane.  By the way, those standards often include a pre-lift with the same mass (in the form of weights in the basket) to the same location, and leaving it there for minutes to many minutes, then lowering it back down, unloading the weights, and getting the humans in.

Offline macpacheco

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #53 on: 12/27/2015 06:14 pm »
Next things on stage are static fire tests and another LEO recovery?
Static fire yes.

Another LEO recovery, uncertain. If you take Musk's words at face value the answer would be probably no. But I think that decision will be taken after the static fire results are analysed, if the data is picture perfect, SpaceX could go for some sort of demo mission. Read the transcripts of the conference call right after the launch.
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Offline AJW

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #54 on: 12/27/2015 06:32 pm »
The main cable is pulled to the top.   The cage is raised with no other cables around it.  Once the cage is at the top, the crane moves the cage over the stage and the main cable is lowered and the person in the cage connects the cable to the top of the stage.  The crane now backs up and lowers the man cage.

No, I'm not in construction, but this doesn't appear to be rocket science.

That's a lot harder than it sounds.  First, you need to have control over where the main cable is (because the lifting spreader bar/attachment rig needs to be over the load center) and the basket (because the humans need to be able to reach all of the attachments) separately.  Second, the lifting rig may be heavier than you might think (it includes the weight of the ball/block, the slings and the bar/rig itself) and thus may compromise the very stringent safety standards for lifting people with a crane.  By the way, those standards often include a pre-lift with the same mass (in the form of weights in the basket) to the same location, and leaving it there for minutes to many minutes, then lowering it back down, unloading the weights, and getting the humans in.

My uncle owned a crane operation, and while I never got to see him move a multi-million dollar first stage, I did see him move heavy equipment including full size locomotives.  Pun or not, this work is not to be taken lightly.   From your reply, we don't seem to be in disagreement on the likely process, just the level of detail provided.
We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives.

Offline dgates

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #55 on: 12/27/2015 11:52 pm »
3 questions:
Landed stage empty weight =.  _________
Landed stage residual fuel weight = ________
Landed stage residual LOX weight = ________

Getting rid of the leftover LOX is easy, drain it or simply let it boil off and vent it.
The extra RP1 can readily be drained into trucks.

Could empty landed stage be in the reasonable weight range to be helo lifted? (San Nicholas Island, for example...)
« Last Edit: 12/27/2015 11:55 pm by dgates »
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Online Lee Jay

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #56 on: 12/27/2015 11:59 pm »

Could empty landed stage be in the reasonable weight range to be helo lifted? (San Nicholas Island, for example...)


No way.

Offline dgates

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #57 on: 12/28/2015 12:17 am »

Could empty landed stage be in the reasonable weight range to be helo lifted? (San Nicholas Island, for example...)


No way.

Defend that.  Why not? CH-53K can lift a 35,000lb external load.  How much does an empty landed stage weigh?
« Last Edit: 12/28/2015 12:18 am by dgates »
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Offline cscott

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #58 on: 12/28/2015 12:23 am »
~25,600kg according to http://spaceflight101.com/spacerockets/falcon-9-v1-1-f9r/

That's 56,320lbs.

EDIT: And it should be noted that the CH-53K does not practically exist yet, and the CH-53E (the actual operational helicopter) can only lift 14,500kg.
« Last Edit: 12/28/2015 12:35 am by cscott »

Offline macpacheco

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Re: Returned Falcon 9 OG2 First Stage Transported to 39A HIF
« Reply #59 on: 12/28/2015 12:28 am »
Defend that.  Why not? CH-53K can lift a 35,000lb external load.  How much does an empty landed stage weigh?
A simple google search suggests the empty first stage is around 20 tons.
That's 44,000lb, and it might be a little heavier including landing legs for instance.
Probably around 50k lbs.
Just some food for thought.
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