Author Topic: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin  (Read 42470 times)

Offline SpaceNutz SA

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Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« on: 08/29/2007 08:49 pm »

Busy reading Gene Cernan's book.  One very striking aspect that comes through is that Cernan definately had/has a serious beef with Buzz Aldrin which I haven't seen in other Astro books.  Mike Collins for example stated that he was 'damn fortunate' to be in the same crew with Aldrin and Armstrong. 

Was Buzz a difficult bloke or did Gene simply have an issue with him - and why??

"Lets not make things worse by guessing" - Gene Kranz - Apollo 13 Flight Director

Offline Andy_Small

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #1 on: 08/29/2007 09:15 pm »
I've read Gene's book as well.  

I also think there was a stink during Apollo 11 as to who would go out first.  Aldrin said that the pilot always did the EVA so he should be the first to go out.  Deke Slayton ended that by saying the CDR would go out first.  Plus he was closer to the hatch.

Aldrin was more of an Academic than most of the test pilot-turned astronauts and I think that turned off alot of the them to Aldrin.

Gene Krantz also had issues with Aldrins idea to free the launch shourd from the agena on Gemini 9.

Say what you will about Buzz.  He changed the way NASA looked at EVA training.

Offline mike robel

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #2 on: 08/29/2007 11:42 pm »
Gunter Wendt's book has some things to say about Aldrin.

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #3 on: 08/30/2007 02:44 am »
Some of the astronauts didn't always get along (contrary to what's seen in publicity shots), but the thing about Aldrin, since I first got
interested in the space program in 1968, was Aldrin struck me as someone who is a perfectionist.  I had friends in the past who had
this characteristics, and I can say that unless you can "read between the lines" on what makes a perfectionist "tick," it's hard for most
to get along with.  

But the story about who was going to be "first" to step on the moon has been kicked around for some time.  Heck, I'd be happy just to
be orbiting the moon if that's what I was assigned....
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline SpaceNutz SA

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #4 on: 08/30/2007 08:56 am »
The issue of who would be first is well documented but I think Mike Collins summed it up pretty well: "He resented not being first more than he appreciated being second".  

I guess in a group of over-achievers like this personality clashes are bound to happen.  It just seemed to me that Gene Cernan particularly had it in for Buzz more so than anyone else.
"Lets not make things worse by guessing" - Gene Kranz - Apollo 13 Flight Director

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #5 on: 08/30/2007 09:43 am »
I thought it was Borman who disliked Buzz the most?!
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Offline brihath

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #6 on: 08/30/2007 11:41 am »
I imagine that Buzz was the first astronaut who was more academically inclined than the others.  He already had his doctorate when he joined as part of the 1963 group.  I believe his doctoral thesis was on orbital rendezvous.  He probably spoke with a sense of authority that was based upon his credentials, which might have rubbed some of the others the wrong way.

No big deal...there are personality differences in any organization.  This is just one more example.

I wasn't aware that he was one of the proponents for trying to use an EVA to remove the ATDA shroud during Gemini 9.  I remember discussions about that being reported in the news during that mission.

Offline EirikV

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #7 on: 08/30/2007 01:18 pm »
Collins later wrote about Aldrin "(he)..is more approachable (than Armstrong); in fact, for reasons I cannot fully explain, it is me that seems to be trying to keep him at arm's length. I have the feeling that he would probe me for weaknesses, and that makes me uncomfortable."

I enjoyed "The Last Man on The Moon" a lot. I'd also recommend Collin's Carrying the Fire and "A Man on the Moon" by Andrew Chaikin.

Offline SpaceNutz SA

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #8 on: 08/30/2007 07:33 pm »
From my readings (and viewings) of Apollo literature it also seems worth mentioning that Buzz was to a large extent 'father driven' which is probably where his perfectionist label aluded to by dwmzmm found root.  

A complex character indeed but it was types like those that made Apollo the program that it was.

"Lets not make things worse by guessing" - Gene Kranz - Apollo 13 Flight Director

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #9 on: 08/30/2007 10:44 pm »
Quote
SpaceNutz SA - 30/8/2007  2:33 PM

From my readings (and viewings) of Apollo literature it also seems worth mentioning that Buzz was to a large extent 'father driven' which is probably where his perfectionist label alluded to by dwmzmm found root.  

A complex character indeed but it was types like those that made Apollo the program that it was.


I might also add, from a personal standpoint, that Buzz Aldrin, of all the astronauts during the 1960's, had the demeanor and attitude that reminds me of Mr. Spock (of STAR TREK).  In the
CBS VHS tape of the "Man On The Moon," in a brief introduction of the Apollo - 11 crew done
by one of CBS's reporters (I think it was David Schumacher, or someone by that name), David,
in asking a question on which of the three crewmembers one would prefer to be with should
they be stuck on an island with no apparent way out, alluded to Aldrin as one who would "be
analyzing the solution, otherwise logically attacking the problem."  Logically?!  Who or what does that remind you of?!   But don't misunderstand me; I have the deepest respect and admiration of Buzz Aldrin and the contributions he's made to the US Space Program and our
nation....
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline NASAguy

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #10 on: 09/02/2007 12:57 pm »
No matter what anyone says being second must have been extremely difficult to deal with from his standpoint.
It has become part of folklore and rightly so. Although aren't issues like these always talked up to sell books?

Offline NASAguy

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #11 on: 09/05/2007 01:37 am »
To claim that there was an issue about been second is understandable in my opinion and having read about it I feel that no historical achievement like that will ever be compensation for the person in question but to the rest of us he was a great man who will live on in all our minds forever

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #12 on: 09/05/2007 01:48 pm »
Quote
Although aren't issues like these always talked up to sell books?

It's not just talk--this has always been an issue with him and still is today.  It's reached the point of being a parody.

Offline H-Dot Max

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #13 on: 09/07/2007 03:22 pm »
There have been various snipes between Aldrin and Cernan, and it probably goes back to their basic personalities. Aldrin has always been viewed as a bit of an egghead, right from the face-to-face interviews when he showed up wearing his Phi Beta Kappa pin that made Wally Schirra remark "It's already on your resume, you don't have to wear it."

In his book, Cernan downplays Aldrin's role in defining effective EVA techniques, while in the MOON SHOT documentary, Aldrin cracks that Cernan and Gordon had difficulties on G-9A and G-11 because they were Navy men trying to muscle their way through. I think that Aldrin wins that argument because it's Shepherd and Slayton who vouch for him in their book.

Aldrin has also shot back as being dismissive about Cernan's place in history as "The Last Man On The Moon." I figure that this stuff will keep going on.

Cunningham's "All-American Boys" gives a very good perspective on both men from the point of view of one of their peers.

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #14 on: 09/07/2007 04:12 pm »
Quote
H-Dot Max - 7/9/2007  10:22 AM

In his book, Cernan downplays Aldrin's role in defining effective EVA techniques, while in the MOON SHOT documentary, Aldrin cracks that Cernan and Gordon had difficulties on G-9A and G-11 because they were Navy men trying to muscle their way through. I think that Aldrin wins that argument because it's Shepherd and Slayton who vouch for him in their book.


No way.  Slayton was sufficiently supportive of Cernan v. Aldrin that he actually considered putting Cernan on 12 _in place of Aldrin_.  You're giving too much weight to a heavily co-authored statement (not just "Slayton" or "Shepard", but also Barbree and Benedict.)

Michael Cassutt, co-author of DEKE!

Offline H-Dot Max

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #15 on: 09/07/2007 05:11 pm »
Quote
Michael Cassutt - 7/9/2007  9:12 AM

No way.  Slayton was sufficiently supportive of Cernan v. Aldrin that he actually considered putting Cernan on 12 _in place of Aldrin_.  You're giving too much weight to a heavily co-authored statement (not just "Slayton" or "Shepard", but also Barbree and Benedict.)

Michael Cassutt, co-author of DEKE!

Then I stand corrected. So how much credit does Aldrin deserve in regards to developing EVA techniques. And were Aldrin's shortcomings more in the way he related to others, his techical expertise, or something else?

Cunningham seems to view Cernan as very glib, well versed in the social dynamics, and having the uncanny ability of being in the right place at the right time.

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #16 on: 09/07/2007 05:25 pm »
Quote
H-Dot Max - 7/9/2007  12:11 PM

Quote
Michael Cassutt - 7/9/2007  9:12 AM

No way.  Slayton was sufficiently supportive of Cernan v. Aldrin that he actually considered putting Cernan on 12 _in place of Aldrin_.  You're giving too much weight to a heavily co-authored statement (not just "Slayton" or "Shepard", but also Barbree and Benedict.)

Michael Cassutt, co-author of DEKE!

Then I stand corrected. So how much credit does Aldrin deserve in regards to developing EVA techniques. And were Aldrin's shortcomings more in the way he related to others, his techical expertise, or something else?

Cunningham seems to view Cernan as very glib, well versed in the social dynamics, and having the uncanny ability of being in the right place at the right time.

Aldrin obviously deserves a lot of credit for developing better training methods for EVA, and demonstrating the results in flight.  As for his "shortcomings" -- your word, not mine -- several astronauts have written about his tendency to over-emphasize one subject (rendezvous or EVA) to the exclusion of others, often to the irritation of his colleagues.  

As for Cernan, I don't want to diminish his technical skills (he did have a master's from Purdue), but it's clear that he played better with others than Aldrin did.  ;)

Michael Cassutt

Offline JMS

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RE: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #17 on: 09/08/2007 09:15 pm »
Interesting new perspective on this subject from Buzz:

[Question]Are you upset about the ad hoc way NASA settled who would be first to step on the moon? Robert Newman, DALLAS

[Buzz] I felt we needed a decision to proceed with training, so I sort of forced the issue. What NASA did was absolutely correct. It would have been unacceptable for the commander to sit up in the lunar module while his co-pilot made the first historic step on the moon.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1659730,00.html

Offline SpaceNutz SA

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #18 on: 09/09/2007 01:08 pm »
That does lend some credibility to the theory that this issue was talked up by the media to create some controversy.  Does the media do that??  :)

"Lets not make things worse by guessing" - Gene Kranz - Apollo 13 Flight Director

Offline JMS

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #19 on: 09/09/2007 04:26 pm »
Or... maybe Buzz, like all of us with hair turning silver, has mellowed a bit with age.
I know the perspective on events of my life has certainly changed through the years.  ;)

Offline DMeader

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #20 on: 09/10/2007 05:24 pm »
Quote
Michael Cassutt - 7/9/2007  1:25 PM
Aldrin obviously deserves a lot of credit for developing better training methods for EVA, and demonstrating the results in flight.  As for his "shortcomings" -- your word, not mine -- several astronauts have written about his tendency to over-emphasize one subject (rendezvous or EVA) to the exclusion of others, often to the irritation of his colleagues.  
I suppose it annoys me a bit that Aldrin is so enthusiastic about cashing in on his ex-astronaut status. Armstrong did his thing and then returned to private life, but Buzz seems to really love the celebrity. Today he even weighed in on the whole Nowak thing on CNN.

I also remember Collin's account in "Carrying The Fire" of the "first man out" arguments between Aldrin and Armstrong before the flight. Certainly didn't sound like a training thing to me.

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #21 on: 09/10/2007 10:58 pm »
Quote
DMeader - 10/9/2007  12:24 PM

Quote
Michael Cassutt - 7/9/2007  1:25 PM
Aldrin obviously deserves a lot of credit for developing better training methods for EVA, and demonstrating the results in flight.  As for his "shortcomings" -- your word, not mine -- several astronauts have written about his tendency to over-emphasize one subject (rendezvous or EVA) to the exclusion of others, often to the irritation of his colleagues.  
I suppose it annoys me a bit that Aldrin is so enthusiastic about cashing in on his ex-astronaut status. Armstrong did his thing and then returned to private life, but Buzz seems to really love the celebrity. Today he even weighed in on the whole Nowak thing on CNN.

I also remember Collin's account in "Carrying The Fire" of the "first man out" arguments between Aldrin and Armstrong before the flight. Certainly didn't sound like a training thing to me.

If I remember correctly, I recall reading in some book about the early life of the three Apollo -
11 astronauts that Aldrin's dad was very strict and hard on his son (Buzz) to be an achiever and
excel in anything and everything he did.  It's possible that Buzz's dad could have put undue
pressure on Buzz about being first on the moon.  Maybe this could have been a factor in the
behavior of the astronauts back in those days....
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline SpaceNutz SA

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #22 on: 09/11/2007 06:12 pm »

Quote
I recall reading in some book about the early life of the three Apollo - 11 astronauts that Aldrin's dad was very strict and hard on his son (Buzz) to be an achiever and excel in anything and everything he did. It's possible that Buzz's dad could have put undue pressure on Buzz about being first on the moon. Maybe this could have been a factor in the behavior of the astronauts back in those days....

The "From the Earth to the Moon" as well as a passage in Armstong's book certainly emphasises this point.  A one point it mentions an incident when Buzz came third in some or other test/activity/class and the only thing his father wanted to know was who came first and second.

I think this "nothing but absolute perfection is good enough" attitude must have affected Buzz from a young age.  I'm no psychologist but I try to keep that in mind in my role as a parent of young kids.

"Lets not make things worse by guessing" - Gene Kranz - Apollo 13 Flight Director

Offline dwmzmm

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #23 on: 09/12/2007 01:20 am »
Quote
SpaceNutz SA - 11/9/2007  1:12 PM

Quote
I recall reading in some book about the early life of the three Apollo - 11 astronauts that Aldrin's dad was very strict and hard on his son (Buzz) to be an achiever and excel in anything and everything he did. It's possible that Buzz's dad could have put undue pressure on Buzz about being first on the moon. Maybe this could have been a factor in the behavior of the astronauts back in those days....

The "From the Earth to the Moon" as well as a passage in Armstrong's book certainly emphasises this point.  A one point it mentions an incident when Buzz came third in some or other test/activity/class and the only thing his father wanted to know was who came first and second.

I think this "nothing but absolute perfection is good enough" attitude must have affected Buzz from a young age.  I'm no psychologist but I try to keep that in mind in my role as a parent of young kids.


This is similar to a late (best) friend I use to have; in grade school through high school, this kid
was satisfied with nothing less than perfection; he HAD to make all A's no matter what.  When
he took the SAT test for college placement, he scored (to me) extremely well.  He wasn't
satisfied and took it AGAIN to get a perfect score the second time around.  As a result, he was
allowed to bypass the freshman & sophomore years, and started at the junior level.  Later,
something happened to him (by this time, we had gone our own ways), but he became a
paranoid and went bonkers.  Unable to care for himself, he had to live with his mother for a
number of years, until he killed himself.  Shortly before that, my sister saw him sitting in his
mother's car at a shopping center, and said he looked like a zombie.  Very sad, but true....
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.

Offline H-Dot Max

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #24 on: 09/12/2007 06:44 pm »
Quote
DMeader - 10/9/2007  10:24 AM
I suppose it annoys me a bit that Aldrin is so enthusiastic about cashing in on his ex-astronaut status. Armstrong did his thing and then returned to private life, but Buzz seems to really love the celebrity. Today he even weighed in on the whole Nowak thing on CNN.
This is probably why the decision was made to have Armstrong go out first. Kraft is still very vocal about the fact that the choice to have Neil go out first was in large part because of how he, Deke and the other decision makers knew how Aldrin would deal with his celebrity versus how Neil would approach it. (If I am wrong about this, correct me)

Note that Armstrong and Collins have notably taken a backseat from the spotlight. It seems to me that both are more than happy to let Aldrin take the center stage as the public face of Apollo 11.




Offline DMeader

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #25 on: 09/12/2007 07:09 pm »
Quote
H-Dot Max - 12/9/2007  2:44 PM
This is probably why the decision was made to have Armstrong go out first. Kraft is still very vocal about the fact that the choice to have Neil go out first was in large part because of how he, Deke and the other decision makers knew how Aldrin would deal with his celebrity versus how Neil would approach it. (If I am wrong about this, correct me)

Note that Armstrong and Collins have notably taken a backseat from the spotlight. It seems to me that both are more than happy to let Aldrin take the center stage as the public face of Apollo 11.

If you can point me to where Kraft's comments are, I'd be interested in reading that.

I assumed it all boiled down to who the commander was, and which way the hatch opened.

Offline SpaceNutz SA

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #26 on: 09/12/2007 09:19 pm »

Quote
DMeader - 12/9/2007 9:09 PM
Quote
H-Dot Max - 12/9/2007 2:44 PM This is probably why the decision was made to have Armstrong go out first. Kraft is still very vocal about the fact that the choice to have Neil go out first was in large part because of how he, Deke and the other decision makers knew how Aldrin would deal with his celebrity versus how Neil would approach it. (If I am wrong about this, correct me) Note that Armstrong and Collins have notably taken a backseat from the spotlight. It seems to me that both are more than happy to let Aldrin take the center stage as the public face of Apollo 11.
If you can point me to where Kraft's comments are, I'd be interested in reading that. I assumed it all boiled down to who the commander was, and which way the hatch opened.

A few pages on this in Neil Armstonrgs Biography "First Man" - last 2 pages of Ch 25.  To summarise,  it was initially to be a LMP egress first.  A meeting was held between Kraft, Slayton, Gilruth and Low where it was unanimously decided to "Change It".   The reason was that they collectively felt that "[we didn't] think that Buzz was the man to be our best representative to the world, the man who would be the legend."

Alan Bean also completely discounts the popular reason for the CDR egress being easier to perform becuase of the proximity to the hatch.  He states that it would be a simple matter of changin seats before donning the EVA backpacks.  

"Lets not make things worse by guessing" - Gene Kranz - Apollo 13 Flight Director

Offline H-Dot Max

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #27 on: 09/13/2007 08:40 am »
Quote
DMeader - 12/9/2007  12:09 PM

If you can point me to where Kraft's comments are, I'd be interested in reading that.

I assumed it all boiled down to who the commander was, and which way the hatch opened.
From the Neil Armstrong book "FIRST MAN"

Offline Skylon

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #28 on: 10/11/2007 11:04 pm »
Deke also indicated he felt the senior astronaut should be the one to step out first (Armstrong was selected in '62, Aldrin '63). A carryover from part of the reason Deke felt Gus should have been the one to make that first step.

The EVA hatch excuse just doesn't hold water. It's not a big deal for the CDR and LMP to switch places BEFORE strapping on the EVA gear.

Offline SpaceNutz SA

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #29 on: 10/12/2007 01:52 pm »
I'm sure that was Deke taking talking the official NASA PAO line.  The meeting refered to above, as it is presented in FIRST MAN, was clear in regards to Buzz not being a suitable 'legend'.  Such sensitive topics discussed behind closed doors seldom make it into the open.
"Lets not make things worse by guessing" - Gene Kranz - Apollo 13 Flight Director

Offline ehartwell

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #30 on: 10/19/2007 11:01 pm »
Quote
Skylon - 11/10/2007  7:04 PM
The EVA hatch excuse just doesn't hold water. It's not a big deal for the CDR and LMP to switch places BEFORE strapping on the EVA gear.
... unless you consider that Apollo 11 was ready to abort at any moment. If anything went  wrong during the depressurization or moon walk, mission rules would probably have required an immediate abort to orbit. This would have been vastly safer if Neil and Buzz were at their primary positions.

It's damn sure that Neil never *wanted* the fame of being first out the door. It's also a fact that Buzz did.

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #31 on: 10/20/2007 12:17 am »
And yet... if ALL the Apollo astronauts had faded back into private life... the push to put men back on the Moon would have MUCH less momentum.  The fact is that little kids being able to meet a man who walked on the moon, or hearing him speak, sparks the sorts of dreams that lead to amazing things... like Constellation.  Regardless of whether they want fame or not, we *need* them to keep the Moon in the public's eye, and to keep the younger generations dreaming big dreams... or else we'll just stagnate =\

Offline marsavian

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #32 on: 06/16/2009 03:43 am »

Offline Nascent Ascent

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #33 on: 06/16/2009 04:10 am »
40 years.   >:(

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #34 on: 06/16/2009 12:31 pm »
Seeing as the thread has been bumped... it's fair to point out that Cernan had his detractors in the astronaut corps, as well.  Slayton had not considered him for command, for example, and planned to make Geno the LMP on Apollo 16, until Cernan turned him down angling for the left seat on another flight.  Only because several people turned down the slot backing up Al Shepard did Deke finally give in and let Geno have his command.

And even so, others still resisted Cernan as a spacecraft commander, including Jim McDivitt, who by that time was managing the Apollo Spacecraft Program Office (ASPO) in Houston.  McDivitt told Slayton that he'd resign before he shepherded Apollo to a close with a mission under the command of Gene Cernan.  And he did, resigning after Apollo 16 and prior to Cernan's flight.

So, all told, Cernan lives in the proverbial glass house, and ought to consider his own position before throwing stones...

-the other Doug
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline marsavian

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #36 on: 07/06/2009 01:15 pm »
Seeing as the thread has been bumped... it's fair to point out that Cernan had his detractors in the astronaut corps, as well.  Slayton had not considered him for command, for example, and planned to make Geno the LMP on Apollo 16, until Cernan turned him down angling for the left seat on another flight.  Only because several people turned down the slot backing up Al Shepard did Deke finally give in and let Geno have his command.

And even so, others still resisted Cernan as a spacecraft commander, including Jim McDivitt, who by that time was managing the Apollo Spacecraft Program Office (ASPO) in Houston.  McDivitt told Slayton that he'd resign before he shepherded Apollo to a close with a mission under the command of Gene Cernan.  And he did, resigning after Apollo 16 and prior to Cernan's flight.

So, all told, Cernan lives in the proverbial glass house, and ought to consider his own position before throwing stones...

-the other Doug


After Apollo 9, McDivitt became Manager of Lunar Landing Operations in May 1969, and led a team that planned the lunar exploration program and redesigned the spacecraft to accomplish this task. In August 1969, he became Manager of the Apollo Spacecraft Program and was the program manager for Apollo 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16. He would have been slated to fly to the moon as Lunar Module Pilot for the Apollo 14 flight, but a fall-out with Shepard (who was the number two astronaut after Deke Slayton), as well as an attempt to ground Gene Cernan, the backup Apollo 14 commander and later the Apollo 17 commander, led to his resignation as Apollo Program Manager .

Offline Ben E

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #37 on: 07/06/2009 02:58 pm »
What (if anything) was McDivitt's gripe with Cernan? I've never heard about that before.

Offline Webhamster

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #38 on: 07/06/2009 04:25 pm »
After Apollo 9, McDivitt became Manager of Lunar Landing Operations in May 1969, and led a team that planned the lunar exploration program and redesigned the spacecraft to accomplish this task. In August 1969, he became Manager of the Apollo Spacecraft Program and was the program manager for Apollo 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16. He would have been slated to fly to the moon as Lunar Module Pilot for the Apollo 14 flight, but a fall-out with Shepard (who was the number two astronaut after Deke Slayton), as well as an attempt to ground Gene Cernan, the backup Apollo 14 commander and later the Apollo 17 commander, led to his resignation as Apollo Program Manager .

McDivitt wasn't "slated" to be the A14 LMP (especially after commanding his only 2 flights).  Everything I've read said Slayton asked him to consider it so that Shepard would get through management as crew commander since he'd have "experienced" back-up on board.  McDivitt balked at the idea.  In the end, I think it was only a passing notion and wasn't ever really seriously considered by either side, it was more of a brainstorming idea on how to make Shepard palatable to management as a "rookie" commander than anything else.  After the LMP idea fell flat he was asked to take the backup CDR role but he felt his seniority was sufficient enough that he shouldn't have to do a backup assignment.  He was more opposed to Shepard marching to the front of the line and himself being asked to take 3rd seat/backup to Shepard than anything else.  I think if the crew had been McDivitt/Roosa/Shepard he'd probably have been OK with it.

What (if anything) was McDivitt's gripe with Cernan? I've never heard about that before.

As for McDivitt's problem with Gene Cernan, it was entirely related to the January 23, 1971 helicopter crash in the Indian River.  He felt Cernan was reckless and was "hot-dogging it" when he crashed the chopper.  When his demands for Cernan to be stripped of flight status fell flat he resigned.
« Last Edit: 07/06/2009 04:30 pm by Webhamster »

Offline Skylon

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #39 on: 07/06/2009 05:09 pm »
McDivitt wasn't "slated" to be the A14 LMP (especially after commanding his only 2 flights).  Everything I've read said Slayton asked him to consider it so that Shepard would get through management as crew commander since he'd have "experienced" back-up on board.  McDivitt balked at the idea.  In the end, I think it was only a passing notion and wasn't ever really seriously considered by either side, it was more of a brainstorming idea on how to make Shepard palatable to management as a "rookie" commander than anything else.  After the LMP idea fell flat he was asked to take the backup CDR role but he felt his seniority was sufficient enough that he shouldn't have to do a backup assignment.  He was more opposed to Shepard marching to the front of the line and himself being asked to take 3rd seat/backup to Shepard than anything else.  I think if the crew had been McDivitt/Roosa/Shepard he'd probably have been OK with it.

Slayton himself felt that McDivitt didn't need to serve as a backup crewmember.

Further, in "Deke!" its noted that McDivitt wanted his Apollo 9 crew to fly a lunar landing. Something that was not going to happen as Dave Scott was pointed at becoming a crew commander and Rusty Schweickart wasn't going to the Moon. I could see McDivitt getting past this however.

It seems rather messed up, what happened with McDivitt. Slayton clearly felt highly of him as he was the first member of his group assigned as a crew commander, and was pointed at the first LM flight very early on. Had Shepard not returned to flight status, I would have given McDivitt better odds at commanding a lunar landing than say...Gordo Cooper. His ultimate decision to go into management nixed any chance of him ultimately flying to the Moon (maybe McDivitt could have ended up with Apollo 17?)

Offline Ben E

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #40 on: 07/06/2009 05:48 pm »
Presumably, then, it was purely ego which prevented Shepard from flying right-seat to McDivitt and McDivitt from flying left-seat to Shepard?

It's interesting that, I think in DEKE, Slayton recounted pushing vigorously to command ASTP, but was overruled. I guess one could argue that he was a 'real' rookie, whereas Shepard at least had flown Freedom 7, but to be fair Shepard himself had next to no spaceflight experience (15 mins) by the time he took the helm of Apollo 14.

Offline Skylon

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #41 on: 07/06/2009 06:49 pm »
Presumably, then, it was purely ego which prevented Shepard from flying right-seat to McDivitt and McDivitt from flying left-seat to Shepard?

It's interesting that, I think in DEKE, Slayton recounted pushing vigorously to command ASTP, but was overruled. I guess one could argue that he was a 'real' rookie, whereas Shepard at least had flown Freedom 7, but to be fair Shepard himself had next to no spaceflight experience (15 mins) by the time he took the helm of Apollo 14.

Slayton considered Shepard the best pilot in the Astronaut office, and recounted that he'd have given him Apollo 1 had he been eligible for flight. It seems clear another person would have treated Shepard differently.

As for ASTP, Deke, in spite of his lobbying surrendered the final decision on the ASTP crew to Chris Kraft. Kraft asked for Deke's suggestion probably to just see what his opinion was. Vance Brand remained aboard the crew, and Deke's backup crew recommendation remained unchanged as well.

Kraft recounted as I recall, that even when he put in the ASTP crew, with Slayton as DMP those above him asked "Don't you have anyone else qualified?" but he replied "We've screwed this guy enough." ASTP was a high-profile international flight. Tom Stafford had become a known quantity with the Russians since attending the Soyuz 11 crew's funeral.

Also, as Mike Mullane put it, there is no "middle" between flown astronauts and rookies. Shepard's pin was gold by token of flying. Slayton's was gold, but out of respect until he finally flew.

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #42 on: 07/06/2009 09:01 pm »
QUOTE..."Only because several people turned down the slot backing up Al Shepard did Deke finally give in and let Geno have his command".

I'm not aware of any other astronaut besides Mike Collins who turned down Deke's request to take the back-up CDR assignment on Apollo 14?
Who else declined?
« Last Edit: 07/06/2009 09:02 pm by TJL »

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #43 on: 07/07/2009 01:12 am »
Gordon Cooper and Jim McDivitt both declined the back-up slot for Shepard's command.  Cooper because it would have been his second straight back-up assignment (after being BCDR on Apollo 10) and McDivitt because he yearned more to manage a large project than to *maybe* fly to the Moon in a couple of years.

I believe McDivitt's position was once described as "he would have been happy to command the first lunar landing, but not the third, or fifth."  The position he was being offered would have given McDivitt command of Apollo 17, which would have been the sixth landing (seventh landing attempt).

A lot of the pilots in the program were like that -- they were fixated on being first, best, fastest, highest.  They could see that the later missions would be geological festivals, and had very, very little interest in spending months and months being trained in geology -- a field most had very little interest in -- just to be the seventh or twelfth man to set foot on the Moon.  If they couldn't be first, they just didn't want to go at all.

I know -- it's not a mindset I can readily understand, either.  But there you have it.

However, when you consider that some of the pilot-astronauts seriously petitioned Deke to be allowed to take six months off from NASA to go fly combat missions in Vietnam, you *really* get into mindsets I don't understand...

-the other Doug
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #44 on: 07/07/2009 02:32 am »
Gordon Cooper and Jim McDivitt both declined the back-up slot for Shepard's command.  Cooper because it would have been his second straight back-up assignment (after being BCDR on Apollo 10) and McDivitt because he yearned more to manage a large project than to *maybe* fly to the Moon in a couple of years.

I may well be misremembering something, but I seem to remember reading it was also offered to Tom Stafford but I can't for the life of me remember where I may have seen that.  Stafford was one of those guys, like McDivitt, who was in it for the engineering challenge and not the geology challenge which is why he turned it down.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #45 on: 07/07/2009 03:47 am »
I think you may be right -- Shepard had resigned as head of the Astronaut Office when he went onto flight status, and Stafford had taken his place.  ISTR that Stafford decided he couldn't effectively serve as head of the office while simultaneously training for a flight, even as BCDR.

-the other Doug
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline Jorge

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #46 on: 07/07/2009 03:54 am »

However, when you consider that some of the pilot-astronauts seriously petitioned Deke to be allowed to take six months off from NASA to go fly combat missions in Vietnam, you *really* get into mindsets I don't understand...

Must be you. I can understand it quite readily. They were the top pilots of the day and had volunteered to serve their nation. Where did their nation need them most? Neil and Buzz had already beaten the commies to the moon. Some of the rest felt they could do the most good beating the commies up close and personal, in F-4s.
JRF

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #47 on: 07/07/2009 03:57 am »


However, when you consider that some of the pilot-astronauts seriously petitioned Deke to be allowed to take six months off from NASA to go fly combat missions in Vietnam, you *really* get into mindsets I don't understand...

-the other Doug

Gene Cernan's quote from "In the Shadow of the Moon" really explains that mentality:

Quote from: Eugene Cernan
"I guess I can sort of admit it now, I've admitted it a little bit to a few friends, I've always had a guilt complex, to some degree. That was my war, good or bad, whether it was a good war or a bad war, we're not discussing it, but that was my war, to fight for my country, and my buddies were getting shot at and shot down and in some cases captured, and I was getting my picture on the front page of the paper. And I've always felt that they fought my war for me. They look at it totally different. They said, "You were doing something that this country needed more than anything else at the time. You were part of a program, the only thing we had to hold our head high and be proud of."

Offline Jorge

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #48 on: 07/07/2009 04:12 am »


However, when you consider that some of the pilot-astronauts seriously petitioned Deke to be allowed to take six months off from NASA to go fly combat missions in Vietnam, you *really* get into mindsets I don't understand...

-the other Doug

Gene Cernan's quote from "In the Shadow of the Moon" really explains that mentality:

Quote from: Eugene Cernan
"I guess I can sort of admit it now, I've admitted it a little bit to a few friends, I've always had a guilt complex, to some degree. That was my war, good or bad, whether it was a good war or a bad war, we're not discussing it, but that was my war, to fight for my country, and my buddies were getting shot at and shot down and in some cases captured, and I was getting my picture on the front page of the paper. And I've always felt that they fought my war for me. They look at it totally different. They said, "You were doing something that this country needed more than anything else at the time. You were part of a program, the only thing we had to hold our head high and be proud of."

Gene's explanation sounds a lot better than mine.
JRF

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #49 on: 07/07/2009 04:27 pm »
Whereas I see it a lot more from the aspect of the guys Cernan quotes who *were* in Vietnam, saying that what NASA was doing (not what they were doing in Vietnam) was "the only thing we had to hold our head high and be proud of."

-the other Doug
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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #50 on: 07/07/2009 05:18 pm »
Whereas I see it a lot more from the aspect of the guys Cernan quotes who *were* in Vietnam, saying that what NASA was doing (not what they were doing in Vietnam) was "the only thing we had to hold our head high and be proud of."

-the other Doug

Were he still alive I'd guess the best person to ask would be Ronald Evans flew missions over Vietnam before he was selected as an Astronaut. Did any of the other group 5 (1966) Astronauts serve in Vietnam? I know plenty of the early shuttle-era astronauts did.

Offline brihath

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #51 on: 07/07/2009 05:59 pm »

However, when you consider that some of the pilot-astronauts seriously petitioned Deke to be allowed to take six months off from NASA to go fly combat missions in Vietnam, you *really* get into mindsets I don't understand...

Must be you. I can understand it quite readily. They were the top pilots of the day and had volunteered to serve their nation. Where did their nation need them most? Neil and Buzz had already beaten the commies to the moon. Some of the rest felt they could do the most good beating the commies up close and personal, in F-4s.

Also, we must consider that, as career military aviators, the main function they trained for was to fly combat missions in fighter aircraft.  If any of them hoped to return to the military after being detailed to NASA as astronauts, they would be competing for career positions against other pilots who had "paid their dues" in Vietnam.  People who were decorated fighter pilots were more assured to get top level command slots.  USAF examples include Robin Olds, Stephen Croker, Steve Ritchie, Daniel "Chappie" James, all who retired as flag officers subsequent to their Vietnam service.  They were all extremely competitive individuals, and their natural tendency would be to go where the challenge was greatest, and for fighter pilots, that challenge would be in a combat zone.

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #52 on: 07/07/2009 09:32 pm »
If Cooper gave in to Slayton and served as back-up CDR on "14", do you think he would have had a shot of commanding Apollo 17?

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #53 on: 07/07/2009 09:43 pm »
If Cooper gave in to Slayton and served as back-up CDR on "14", do you think he would have had a shot of commanding Apollo 17?

And so it arises again......

Cooper was not offered backup commander on "14" or anything past backup commander on 10.  The story in Cooper's "autobiography" is garbled.  Absent some catastrophe, Slayton had no plans to fly Cooper in Apollo.

Michael Cassut, co-author DEKE! and WE HAVE CAPTURE

Offline Proponent

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #54 on: 07/08/2009 02:07 am »
Were he still alive I'd guess the best person to ask would be Ronald Evans flew missions over Vietnam before he was selected as an Astronaut. Did any of the other group 5 (1966) Astronauts serve in Vietnam? I know plenty of the early shuttle-era astronauts did.

BTW, ISTR reading that after his selection as an astronaut, Evans delayed his transfer to NASA so that he could complete his tour of duty in Vietnam.

Offline the_other_Doug

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #55 on: 07/08/2009 02:24 am »
I don't know that Evans delayed his transfer to NASA, but after the interviews and medical tests he did report back to the Ticonderoga to continue his combat tour.  I remember reading an account of his notification -- by telephone from Houston to the ops room on the Tico.

I guess I can understand some of what was going on, there.  I mean, you train and train to do something, you get *really* good at it (at least in your training exercises), and part of you really wants to go out there in real combat and show everyone just what you can do.  Heck, IIRC, didn't Stu Roosa train to deliver nuclear weapons so intensely that when he got transferred out of that position, he felt a sense of frustration and loss?  Even though he *knew* he had ambivalent internal feelings about ever actually being called upon to deliver nuclear destruction, he was frustrated at never being given the chance to show just how well he could have done it...

-the other Doug
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #56 on: 07/09/2009 06:16 am »
One reason I always thought Aldrin was assigned to Apollo 11 was his expertise in rendezvous, just in case a manual rendezvous was required like on Gemini 12 when the radar failed. Just my own theory.
« Last Edit: 07/09/2009 06:17 am by Envious »
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Offline BigRIJoe

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #57 on: 07/09/2009 09:46 am »
Here's a further Apollo crew assignment mystery: In DEKE, Slayton had made it pretty clear that he was very unhappy with Cooper's performance at least as early as the 1965-1966 time frame. If that's the case, why bother to make him the Apollo 10 backup commander? Could you imagine what would have been going on in his mind if the Apollo 10 prime crew was unable to fly that mission? First we'd have a commander (Cooper) Slayton was disenchanted with, a CMP (Eisele), who had occurred the wrath of Chris Kraft on Apollo 7, and a totally untested rookie in Mitchell. None of this adds up in my mind. I'd eliminate the possibility that he gave the backup slot to Cooper so he might "rehabiltate" himself, because apparently, he had made the decision never to be sentimental about flight assignments after his doubts about See's ability proved prophetic.

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #58 on: 07/09/2009 12:34 pm »
Well... if I read "Deke!" correctly, he never said that he himself was all that disenchanted with Gordo.  He kept saying that assigning Cooper to a prime crew was "a hard sell" to the shirts in Washington who had to pass on the crew assignments.

He also said that he had every confidence the Apollo 10 back-up crew was capable of flying the mission, if it came to that.  He just didn't think he would be able to "sell" promoting that crew to prime status, and had been thinking of replacing Cooper with Stafford -- until the fortuitous return to flight status by Shepard, which solved his problem.

-the other Doug
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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #59 on: 07/09/2009 01:06 pm »
Well... if I read "Deke!" correctly, he never said that he himself was all that disenchanted with Gordo.  He kept saying that assigning Cooper to a prime crew was "a hard sell" to the shirts in Washington who had to pass on the crew assignments.

He also said that he had every confidence the Apollo 10 back-up crew was capable of flying the mission, if it came to that.  He just didn't think he would be able to "sell" promoting that crew to prime status, and had been thinking of replacing Cooper with Stafford -- until the fortuitous return to flight status by Shepard, which solved his problem.

-the other Doug

Also, consider this, who else could he have assigned there?  Deke was faced with a pretty serious manpower shortage in terms of available guys to assign as a backup commander at that point in time especially since he was using Gemini vets in CMP and LMP seats.  I can't think of anybody else who could have filled that spot who wasn't already assigned somewhere else.
« Last Edit: 07/09/2009 01:07 pm by Webhamster »

Offline Skylon

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #60 on: 07/09/2009 02:53 pm »
Here's a further Apollo crew assignment mystery: In DEKE, Slayton had made it pretty clear that he was very unhappy with Cooper's performance at least as early as the 1965-1966 time frame. If that's the case, why bother to make him the Apollo 10 backup commander? Could you imagine what would have been going on in his mind if the Apollo 10 prime crew was unable to fly that mission? First we'd have a commander (Cooper) Slayton was disenchanted with, a CMP (Eisele), who had occurred the wrath of Chris Kraft on Apollo 7, and a totally untested rookie in Mitchell. None of this adds up in my mind. I'd eliminate the possibility that he gave the backup slot to Cooper so he might "rehabiltate" himself, because apparently, he had made the decision never to be sentimental about flight assignments after his doubts about See's ability proved prophetic.

As noted it was due to a manpower shortage. With Schirra retired, Deke needed to put Cooper back in the rotation. A veteran astronaut was needed for the backup CMP due to Deke's rule the CMP on Apollo 10 must have spaceflight experience, hence Eisele (nobody else available to fill that position except Walt Cunningham). As for Ed Mitchell...why not? I don't think the term "untested" is fair here. Ed Mitchell was highly regarded as an LMP.

Also, I got a sense that the stint on the Apollo 10 backup crew was Donn Eisele's last chance at redemption. Tom Stafford stated that after Eisele remarried his work ethic went down the tubes at which point he was asked to leave. Walt Cunningham wrote something similar, believing that Cooper was lax towards training while Apollo 10's backup CDR, and Eisele followed Cooper's lead and didn't work very hard as a backup CMP. Ed Mitchell on the other hand worked his ass off. He got a lunar landing assignment. The other two did not.

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #61 on: 07/09/2009 03:27 pm »
Slayton had reservations about Cooper's ability to handle a lunar landing -- especially compared to astronauts like Borman, McDivitt, Stafford, Armstrong and Conrad.  Note the word "compared".  It didn't mean he thought Cooper incapable.  (Slayton would happily have assigned Cooper the first Skylab mission.)

Cooper was working as backup for Apollo 10 as early as April 1968 (Stafford knew his crew would fly that mission by that time), so it wasn't quite a case of Schirra's gone in October 1968, who's available now?

As for the suggestion that Aldrin was assigned to 11 because of his rendezvous skills, no.  (If true, he'd have been the CMP.)

Michael Cassutt

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #62 on: 07/09/2009 03:43 pm »
So Borman's "piloting" skills were considered first-rate? I've not read much about that, certainly not to the extent that others like Conrad and Armstrong have been mentioned. But I guess his stick-and-rudder and engineering abilities had to be excellent since Slayton and top management always held him in high regard and deemed him "commander" material from the get-go.

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #63 on: 07/09/2009 04:07 pm »
So Borman's "piloting" skills were considered first-rate? I've not read much about that, certainly not to the extent that others like Conrad and Armstrong have been mentioned. But I guess his stick-and-rudder and engineering abilities had to be excellent since Slayton and top management always held him in high regard and deemed him "commander" material from the get-go.

I can't speak to Borman's stick-and-rudder skills, but I do know that as of September 1962, Slayton ticketed Borman and McDivitt as his two most likely lunar mission commanders... and shaped their careers accordingly.  Very little had changed by December 1968, when Slayton was still willing to rotate Borman's Apollo 8 crew to Apollo 11, and McDivitt's A9 crew to 12.

Michael Cassutt

Offline rsp1202

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #64 on: 07/09/2009 05:29 pm »
Where exactly do the Original 7 figure into this lunar commander musical chairs game? Shepard is out for medical, Schirra is ?, leaving Grissom. If not for The Fire, Grissom gets first landing, tagged by Slayton before Borman or McDivitt, etc. -- at least according to some reports and/or popular myth. What's your take?

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #65 on: 07/09/2009 06:00 pm »
Where exactly do the Original 7 figure into this lunar commander musical chairs game? Shepard is out for medical, Schirra is ?, leaving Grissom. If not for The Fire, Grissom gets first landing, tagged by Slayton before Borman or McDivitt, etc. -- at least according to some reports and/or popular myth. What's your take?

Slayton laid out a set of proposed Apollo crews in late 1963, early 1964, to guide him in making technical and Gemini crew assignments.  His goal was to have six qualified flight crews available the day he needed to assign one to the first lunar landing five years later.

At that time, he had Shepard, Grissom and Schirra as possibly going on to Apollo*, with Borman, McDivitt and Armstrong from Group 2.  Shepard dropped off that list for medical reasons soon after and was replaced by Conrad.  Over time -- by late 1966 -- Stafford had taken Schirra's place.

*It wasn't until late 1965, early 1966 that Slayton could be sure Grissom or Schirra would still be around for Apollo.  Either one could have returned to the military at that point.


MC

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #66 on: 07/09/2009 06:23 pm »
Conrad gets kicked up to first team before Stafford. Interesting. Was it true that Stafford would have flown with Shepard on the first Gemini if Shepard hadn't taken med leave? Stafford gets picked for a prime mission early on, while Conrad gets handed the "lesser" G5 marathon (and Stafford ends up with another prime mission, rendezvous). Was there a real change in Conrad's status, at least in the eyes of Slayton, that vaulted him over Stafford during this timeframe, or is it just the way things fell out? Last question -- thanks for all the info.

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #67 on: 07/09/2009 06:41 pm »
Conrad gets kicked up to first team before Stafford. Interesting. Was it true that Stafford would have flown with Shepard on the first Gemini if Shepard hadn't taken med leave? Stafford gets picked for a prime mission early on, while Conrad gets handed the "lesser" G5 marathon (and Stafford ends up with another prime mission, rendezvous). Was there a real change in Conrad's status, at least in the eyes of Slayton, that vaulted him over Stafford during this timeframe, or is it just the way things fell out? Last question -- thanks for all the info.

The original crews for GT III were Shepard-Stafford and Grissom-Borman, announced in the astronaut office in February 1964.  Neither team did any real training -- Stafford recalls that he and Shepard possibly took one trip to McDonnell.  Then Shepard was grounded, Grissom got command of III and decided he'd rather have Young than either Stafford or Borman.

Conrad didn't "vault" over  Stafford.... he came to the office as a better known personality (he and Lovell had gone through the Mercury selections).  Further, he had strong support from Schirra and Shepard.

MC

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #68 on: 07/09/2009 07:01 pm »
Conrad didn't "vault" over  Stafford.... he came to the office as a better known personality (he and Lovell had gone through the Mercury selections).  Further, he had strong support from Schirra and Shepard.

Of course, his Mercury connections. I had forgotten. Thanks.

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #69 on: 07/09/2009 09:48 pm »
IIRC, on an early Gemini roster, wasn't Conrad selected as the BU CDR on I believe GT-4 with Jim Lovell as his pilot?
« Last Edit: 07/09/2009 09:50 pm by TJL »

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #70 on: 07/10/2009 01:43 am »
IIRC, on an early Gemini roster, wasn't Conrad selected as the BU CDR on I believe GT-4 with Jim Lovell as his pilot?

During that period when the III crews were Shepard-Stafford, Grissom-Borman, yes.

MC

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #71 on: 07/10/2009 01:59 am »
While we're on the subject of flight crews, Michael -- I recall in your excellent book "Deke!" that Slayton had said he did not plan to use Grissom's Apollo 1 crew for a lunar landing mission, but that he *did* plan to give Grissom command of the first landing attempt.

You never mention it in the book, but did you ever get a feel for the other two names we might have seen on Grissom's lunar landing crew?

-the other Doug
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #72 on: 07/10/2009 02:16 am »
While we're on the subject of flight crews, Michael -- I recall in your excellent book "Deke!" that Slayton had said he did not plan to use Grissom's Apollo 1 crew for a lunar landing mission, but that he *did* plan to give Grissom command of the first landing attempt.

You never mention it in the book, but did you ever get a feel for the other two names we might have seen on Grissom's lunar landing crew? 

Given who was available -- assuming McDivitt Scott Schweickart and Stafford Young Cernan for AS 205, Borman Collins Anders and Conrad Gordon Williams for AS 503 -- I would look to Lovell as CMP and Eisele as LMP for a possible Grissom-commanded lunar crew.  Just an informed guess.

MC
« Last Edit: 07/10/2009 02:17 am by Michael Cassutt »

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Re: Gene Cernan & Buzz Aldrin
« Reply #73 on: 07/10/2009 08:09 pm »
Another theory on the "probable" first landing crew that I heard about was the following:

Grissom-Scott-McDivitt

With the Grissom crew flying Apollo 1 and the McDivitt crew flying Apollo 2, and with White, Chaffee, and Schweickart moving on to Apollo Applications following their first flight, according to Slayton it made sense to team up the remaining members of Apollo 2 who were very experienced with Grissom to make up a very capable first landing crew.

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