Busy reading Gene Cernan's book. One very striking aspect that comes through is that Cernan definately had/has a serious beef with Buzz Aldrin which I haven't seen in other Astro books. Mike Collins for example stated that he was 'damn fortunate' to be in the same crew with Aldrin and Armstrong.
Was Buzz a difficult bloke or did Gene simply have an issue with him - and why??
SpaceNutz SA - 30/8/2007 2:33 PMFrom my readings (and viewings) of Apollo literature it also seems worth mentioning that Buzz was to a large extent 'father driven' which is probably where his perfectionist label alluded to by dwmzmm found root. A complex character indeed but it was types like those that made Apollo the program that it was.
Although aren't issues like these always talked up to sell books?
H-Dot Max - 7/9/2007 10:22 AMIn his book, Cernan downplays Aldrin's role in defining effective EVA techniques, while in the MOON SHOT documentary, Aldrin cracks that Cernan and Gordon had difficulties on G-9A and G-11 because they were Navy men trying to muscle their way through. I think that Aldrin wins that argument because it's Shepherd and Slayton who vouch for him in their book.
Michael Cassutt - 7/9/2007 9:12 AMNo way. Slayton was sufficiently supportive of Cernan v. Aldrin that he actually considered putting Cernan on 12 _in place of Aldrin_. You're giving too much weight to a heavily co-authored statement (not just "Slayton" or "Shepard", but also Barbree and Benedict.)Michael Cassutt, co-author of DEKE!
H-Dot Max - 7/9/2007 12:11 PMQuoteMichael Cassutt - 7/9/2007 9:12 AMNo way. Slayton was sufficiently supportive of Cernan v. Aldrin that he actually considered putting Cernan on 12 _in place of Aldrin_. You're giving too much weight to a heavily co-authored statement (not just "Slayton" or "Shepard", but also Barbree and Benedict.)Michael Cassutt, co-author of DEKE!Then I stand corrected. So how much credit does Aldrin deserve in regards to developing EVA techniques. And were Aldrin's shortcomings more in the way he related to others, his techical expertise, or something else?Cunningham seems to view Cernan as very glib, well versed in the social dynamics, and having the uncanny ability of being in the right place at the right time.
Michael Cassutt - 7/9/2007 1:25 PMAldrin obviously deserves a lot of credit for developing better training methods for EVA, and demonstrating the results in flight. As for his "shortcomings" -- your word, not mine -- several astronauts have written about his tendency to over-emphasize one subject (rendezvous or EVA) to the exclusion of others, often to the irritation of his colleagues.
DMeader - 10/9/2007 12:24 PMQuoteMichael Cassutt - 7/9/2007 1:25 PMAldrin obviously deserves a lot of credit for developing better training methods for EVA, and demonstrating the results in flight. As for his "shortcomings" -- your word, not mine -- several astronauts have written about his tendency to over-emphasize one subject (rendezvous or EVA) to the exclusion of others, often to the irritation of his colleagues. I suppose it annoys me a bit that Aldrin is so enthusiastic about cashing in on his ex-astronaut status. Armstrong did his thing and then returned to private life, but Buzz seems to really love the celebrity. Today he even weighed in on the whole Nowak thing on CNN.I also remember Collin's account in "Carrying The Fire" of the "first man out" arguments between Aldrin and Armstrong before the flight. Certainly didn't sound like a training thing to me.
I recall reading in some book about the early life of the three Apollo - 11 astronauts that Aldrin's dad was very strict and hard on his son (Buzz) to be an achiever and excel in anything and everything he did. It's possible that Buzz's dad could have put undue pressure on Buzz about being first on the moon. Maybe this could have been a factor in the behavior of the astronauts back in those days....
The "From the Earth to the Moon" as well as a passage in Armstong's book certainly emphasises this point. A one point it mentions an incident when Buzz came third in some or other test/activity/class and the only thing his father wanted to know was who came first and second.
I think this "nothing but absolute perfection is good enough" attitude must have affected Buzz from a young age. I'm no psychologist but I try to keep that in mind in my role as a parent of young kids.
SpaceNutz SA - 11/9/2007 1:12 PMQuote I recall reading in some book about the early life of the three Apollo - 11 astronauts that Aldrin's dad was very strict and hard on his son (Buzz) to be an achiever and excel in anything and everything he did. It's possible that Buzz's dad could have put undue pressure on Buzz about being first on the moon. Maybe this could have been a factor in the behavior of the astronauts back in those days....The "From the Earth to the Moon" as well as a passage in Armstrong's book certainly emphasises this point. A one point it mentions an incident when Buzz came third in some or other test/activity/class and the only thing his father wanted to know was who came first and second.I think this "nothing but absolute perfection is good enough" attitude must have affected Buzz from a young age. I'm no psychologist but I try to keep that in mind in my role as a parent of young kids.
The "From the Earth to the Moon" as well as a passage in Armstrong's book certainly emphasises this point. A one point it mentions an incident when Buzz came third in some or other test/activity/class and the only thing his father wanted to know was who came first and second.
DMeader - 10/9/2007 10:24 AMI suppose it annoys me a bit that Aldrin is so enthusiastic about cashing in on his ex-astronaut status. Armstrong did his thing and then returned to private life, but Buzz seems to really love the celebrity. Today he even weighed in on the whole Nowak thing on CNN.
H-Dot Max - 12/9/2007 2:44 PMThis is probably why the decision was made to have Armstrong go out first. Kraft is still very vocal about the fact that the choice to have Neil go out first was in large part because of how he, Deke and the other decision makers knew how Aldrin would deal with his celebrity versus how Neil would approach it. (If I am wrong about this, correct me)Note that Armstrong and Collins have notably taken a backseat from the spotlight. It seems to me that both are more than happy to let Aldrin take the center stage as the public face of Apollo 11.
DMeader - 12/9/2007 9:09 PM QuoteH-Dot Max - 12/9/2007 2:44 PM This is probably why the decision was made to have Armstrong go out first. Kraft is still very vocal about the fact that the choice to have Neil go out first was in large part because of how he, Deke and the other decision makers knew how Aldrin would deal with his celebrity versus how Neil would approach it. (If I am wrong about this, correct me) Note that Armstrong and Collins have notably taken a backseat from the spotlight. It seems to me that both are more than happy to let Aldrin take the center stage as the public face of Apollo 11. If you can point me to where Kraft's comments are, I'd be interested in reading that. I assumed it all boiled down to who the commander was, and which way the hatch opened.
H-Dot Max - 12/9/2007 2:44 PM This is probably why the decision was made to have Armstrong go out first. Kraft is still very vocal about the fact that the choice to have Neil go out first was in large part because of how he, Deke and the other decision makers knew how Aldrin would deal with his celebrity versus how Neil would approach it. (If I am wrong about this, correct me) Note that Armstrong and Collins have notably taken a backseat from the spotlight. It seems to me that both are more than happy to let Aldrin take the center stage as the public face of Apollo 11.
A few pages on this in Neil Armstonrgs Biography "First Man" - last 2 pages of Ch 25. To summarise, it was initially to be a LMP egress first. A meeting was held between Kraft, Slayton, Gilruth and Low where it was unanimously decided to "Change It". The reason was that they collectively felt that "[we didn't] think that Buzz was the man to be our best representative to the world, the man who would be the legend."
Alan Bean also completely discounts the popular reason for the CDR egress being easier to perform becuase of the proximity to the hatch. He states that it would be a simple matter of changin seats before donning the EVA backpacks.
DMeader - 12/9/2007 12:09 PMIf you can point me to where Kraft's comments are, I'd be interested in reading that.I assumed it all boiled down to who the commander was, and which way the hatch opened.
Skylon - 11/10/2007 7:04 PMThe EVA hatch excuse just doesn't hold water. It's not a big deal for the CDR and LMP to switch places BEFORE strapping on the EVA gear.
Seeing as the thread has been bumped... it's fair to point out that Cernan had his detractors in the astronaut corps, as well. Slayton had not considered him for command, for example, and planned to make Geno the LMP on Apollo 16, until Cernan turned him down angling for the left seat on another flight. Only because several people turned down the slot backing up Al Shepard did Deke finally give in and let Geno have his command.And even so, others still resisted Cernan as a spacecraft commander, including Jim McDivitt, who by that time was managing the Apollo Spacecraft Program Office (ASPO) in Houston. McDivitt told Slayton that he'd resign before he shepherded Apollo to a close with a mission under the command of Gene Cernan. And he did, resigning after Apollo 16 and prior to Cernan's flight.So, all told, Cernan lives in the proverbial glass house, and ought to consider his own position before throwing stones...-the other Doug
After Apollo 9, McDivitt became Manager of Lunar Landing Operations in May 1969, and led a team that planned the lunar exploration program and redesigned the spacecraft to accomplish this task. In August 1969, he became Manager of the Apollo Spacecraft Program and was the program manager for Apollo 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16. He would have been slated to fly to the moon as Lunar Module Pilot for the Apollo 14 flight, but a fall-out with Shepard (who was the number two astronaut after Deke Slayton), as well as an attempt to ground Gene Cernan, the backup Apollo 14 commander and later the Apollo 17 commander, led to his resignation as Apollo Program Manager .
What (if anything) was McDivitt's gripe with Cernan? I've never heard about that before.
McDivitt wasn't "slated" to be the A14 LMP (especially after commanding his only 2 flights). Everything I've read said Slayton asked him to consider it so that Shepard would get through management as crew commander since he'd have "experienced" back-up on board. McDivitt balked at the idea. In the end, I think it was only a passing notion and wasn't ever really seriously considered by either side, it was more of a brainstorming idea on how to make Shepard palatable to management as a "rookie" commander than anything else. After the LMP idea fell flat he was asked to take the backup CDR role but he felt his seniority was sufficient enough that he shouldn't have to do a backup assignment. He was more opposed to Shepard marching to the front of the line and himself being asked to take 3rd seat/backup to Shepard than anything else. I think if the crew had been McDivitt/Roosa/Shepard he'd probably have been OK with it.
Presumably, then, it was purely ego which prevented Shepard from flying right-seat to McDivitt and McDivitt from flying left-seat to Shepard?It's interesting that, I think in DEKE, Slayton recounted pushing vigorously to command ASTP, but was overruled. I guess one could argue that he was a 'real' rookie, whereas Shepard at least had flown Freedom 7, but to be fair Shepard himself had next to no spaceflight experience (15 mins) by the time he took the helm of Apollo 14.
Gordon Cooper and Jim McDivitt both declined the back-up slot for Shepard's command. Cooper because it would have been his second straight back-up assignment (after being BCDR on Apollo 10) and McDivitt because he yearned more to manage a large project than to *maybe* fly to the Moon in a couple of years.
However, when you consider that some of the pilot-astronauts seriously petitioned Deke to be allowed to take six months off from NASA to go fly combat missions in Vietnam, you *really* get into mindsets I don't understand...
However, when you consider that some of the pilot-astronauts seriously petitioned Deke to be allowed to take six months off from NASA to go fly combat missions in Vietnam, you *really* get into mindsets I don't understand...-the other Doug
"I guess I can sort of admit it now, I've admitted it a little bit to a few friends, I've always had a guilt complex, to some degree. That was my war, good or bad, whether it was a good war or a bad war, we're not discussing it, but that was my war, to fight for my country, and my buddies were getting shot at and shot down and in some cases captured, and I was getting my picture on the front page of the paper. And I've always felt that they fought my war for me. They look at it totally different. They said, "You were doing something that this country needed more than anything else at the time. You were part of a program, the only thing we had to hold our head high and be proud of."
Quote from: the_other_Doug on 07/07/2009 01:12 amHowever, when you consider that some of the pilot-astronauts seriously petitioned Deke to be allowed to take six months off from NASA to go fly combat missions in Vietnam, you *really* get into mindsets I don't understand...-the other DougGene Cernan's quote from "In the Shadow of the Moon" really explains that mentality:Quote from: Eugene Cernan"I guess I can sort of admit it now, I've admitted it a little bit to a few friends, I've always had a guilt complex, to some degree. That was my war, good or bad, whether it was a good war or a bad war, we're not discussing it, but that was my war, to fight for my country, and my buddies were getting shot at and shot down and in some cases captured, and I was getting my picture on the front page of the paper. And I've always felt that they fought my war for me. They look at it totally different. They said, "You were doing something that this country needed more than anything else at the time. You were part of a program, the only thing we had to hold our head high and be proud of."
Whereas I see it a lot more from the aspect of the guys Cernan quotes who *were* in Vietnam, saying that what NASA was doing (not what they were doing in Vietnam) was "the only thing we had to hold our head high and be proud of."-the other Doug
Quote from: the_other_Doug on 07/07/2009 01:12 amHowever, when you consider that some of the pilot-astronauts seriously petitioned Deke to be allowed to take six months off from NASA to go fly combat missions in Vietnam, you *really* get into mindsets I don't understand...Must be you. I can understand it quite readily. They were the top pilots of the day and had volunteered to serve their nation. Where did their nation need them most? Neil and Buzz had already beaten the commies to the moon. Some of the rest felt they could do the most good beating the commies up close and personal, in F-4s.
If Cooper gave in to Slayton and served as back-up CDR on "14", do you think he would have had a shot of commanding Apollo 17?
Were he still alive I'd guess the best person to ask would be Ronald Evans flew missions over Vietnam before he was selected as an Astronaut. Did any of the other group 5 (1966) Astronauts serve in Vietnam? I know plenty of the early shuttle-era astronauts did.
Well... if I read "Deke!" correctly, he never said that he himself was all that disenchanted with Gordo. He kept saying that assigning Cooper to a prime crew was "a hard sell" to the shirts in Washington who had to pass on the crew assignments.He also said that he had every confidence the Apollo 10 back-up crew was capable of flying the mission, if it came to that. He just didn't think he would be able to "sell" promoting that crew to prime status, and had been thinking of replacing Cooper with Stafford -- until the fortuitous return to flight status by Shepard, which solved his problem.-the other Doug
Here's a further Apollo crew assignment mystery: In DEKE, Slayton had made it pretty clear that he was very unhappy with Cooper's performance at least as early as the 1965-1966 time frame. If that's the case, why bother to make him the Apollo 10 backup commander? Could you imagine what would have been going on in his mind if the Apollo 10 prime crew was unable to fly that mission? First we'd have a commander (Cooper) Slayton was disenchanted with, a CMP (Eisele), who had occurred the wrath of Chris Kraft on Apollo 7, and a totally untested rookie in Mitchell. None of this adds up in my mind. I'd eliminate the possibility that he gave the backup slot to Cooper so he might "rehabiltate" himself, because apparently, he had made the decision never to be sentimental about flight assignments after his doubts about See's ability proved prophetic.
So Borman's "piloting" skills were considered first-rate? I've not read much about that, certainly not to the extent that others like Conrad and Armstrong have been mentioned. But I guess his stick-and-rudder and engineering abilities had to be excellent since Slayton and top management always held him in high regard and deemed him "commander" material from the get-go.
Where exactly do the Original 7 figure into this lunar commander musical chairs game? Shepard is out for medical, Schirra is ?, leaving Grissom. If not for The Fire, Grissom gets first landing, tagged by Slayton before Borman or McDivitt, etc. -- at least according to some reports and/or popular myth. What's your take?
Conrad gets kicked up to first team before Stafford. Interesting. Was it true that Stafford would have flown with Shepard on the first Gemini if Shepard hadn't taken med leave? Stafford gets picked for a prime mission early on, while Conrad gets handed the "lesser" G5 marathon (and Stafford ends up with another prime mission, rendezvous). Was there a real change in Conrad's status, at least in the eyes of Slayton, that vaulted him over Stafford during this timeframe, or is it just the way things fell out? Last question -- thanks for all the info.
Conrad didn't "vault" over Stafford.... he came to the office as a better known personality (he and Lovell had gone through the Mercury selections). Further, he had strong support from Schirra and Shepard.
IIRC, on an early Gemini roster, wasn't Conrad selected as the BU CDR on I believe GT-4 with Jim Lovell as his pilot?
While we're on the subject of flight crews, Michael -- I recall in your excellent book "Deke!" that Slayton had said he did not plan to use Grissom's Apollo 1 crew for a lunar landing mission, but that he *did* plan to give Grissom command of the first landing attempt.You never mention it in the book, but did you ever get a feel for the other two names we might have seen on Grissom's lunar landing crew?