Author Topic: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo  (Read 13300 times)

Offline TJL

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Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« on: 03/01/2008 06:16 pm »
Anyone here know if a photo exists of the Apollo 11 back-up crew (Lovell-Anders-Haise), with or without the prime crew.
The only picture I've seen was actually a painting of both crews that was part of a Look Magazine cover.
Thank you.

Offline rsp1202

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #1 on: 03/01/2008 11:01 pm »
This is close, if not exact:
http://www.apollomissionphotos.com/index_reprint_apcrews.html
(see A8 prime and backup crew photo)

Offline TJL

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #2 on: 03/02/2008 12:25 am »
Very close...it actually does have the entire Apollo 11 back-up crew...thanks.

Offline jossanest

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #3 on: 02/17/2013 05:30 pm »
Has anybody seen a picture, official or not, of the Apollo 11 back-up crew?

Offline TJL

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #4 on: 02/18/2013 02:01 am »
The only one I've seen was a painting by Norman Rockwell:

http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/104/28ef4c8944ce4f469c7ac35ae42fd4cc/l.jpg

Other than that, the closest would be the Apollo 8 prime and back-up crew photo.  Replace Borman with Collins and you'd have the Apollo 11 prime and backup crew.

Online Orbiter

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #5 on: 02/18/2013 02:40 am »
I don't believe there is a back-up crew picture, why would there be?
KSC Engineer, astronomer, rocket photographer.

Offline jossanest

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #6 on: 02/18/2013 08:42 am »
There's no a special reason, but there were official pictures of most of the Gemini back-up crews, plus Apollo 1 and Skylab 2.

And I've seen unofficial portraits of Apollo 8, 10, 14 & 16 back-up ones. Also Apollo 10, 12 & 15 prime apparently (?) as Apollo 7, 9 & 12 back-up, since the astronauts were the same. 


Offline Ben E

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #7 on: 02/18/2013 09:53 am »
The Apollo 11 backup crew changed slightly, when Anders resigned in July/August 1969. It was originally Lovell-Anders-Haise, and then Lovell-Mattingly-Haise. Mattingly mentions it (and his interactions with Armstrong) in his NASA oral history.

Offline jossanest

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #8 on: 02/18/2013 01:59 pm »
That's new for me. If I'm not wrong, no mention in "Deke!" to the Mattingly assignment.

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #9 on: 02/18/2013 04:04 pm »
That's new for me. If I'm not wrong, no mention in "Deke!" to the Mattingly assignment.

Look more closely, in the section covering the swap of the planned Apollo 13 and 14 crews (p 237 of the hardcover):  "Jim Lovell was backing up Apollo 11, still scheduled for launch, with Bill Anders and Fred Haise.  Bill had already accepted a position with the National Space Council, effective in August, so he wasn't going to rotate to another crew.  But had had given me notice, so I already had Ken Mattingly working as a parallel backup with him."

Michael Cassutt, co-author of DEKE!

Offline jossanest

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #10 on: 02/18/2013 05:01 pm »
Thanks, Michael. Obviously you're right and I was wrong. It's strange that I paid no attention to that as I carefully read any info concerning missions assignments, changes, switchs, replacements... I have a list including even the most improbable chances of hypothetical crews, but nobody's perfect!

By the way it's a pleasure to hear from you since "Deke!" is my astronautics Bible. I still remember the day I got it and almost compulsively began to read it looking for such amount of details I ignored and was avid of knowing. Sorry for missing that detail concerning Mattingly.

There is something (probably the only thing) that I haven't found there, or maybe I passed over it too: what happened to Tom Stafford after Apollo 10 and why he missed the chance of a lunar landing. I know he was the Chief of the Astronaut Office, but the same way he left it for the ASTP mission he could have done it before in order to walk the moon. But I guess that each thing has its time and Tom's ones were those.

Offline grakenverb

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #11 on: 02/18/2013 05:28 pm »
Not a portrait, but:

From The Project Apollo Image Gallery

http://www.apolloarchive.com/apollo_gallery.html

"Suit technician Joe Schmitt assists Apollo 11 backup lunar module pilot Fred W. Haise, Jr., left, and James A. Lovell, backup crew commander, into lunar module for manned altitude run
March 20, 1969"

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a11/ap11-69-H-548HR.jpg
« Last Edit: 02/18/2013 05:31 pm by grakenverb »

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #12 on: 02/18/2013 07:00 pm »
Thanks, Michael. Obviously you're right and I was wrong. It's strange that I paid no attention to that as I carefully read any info concerning missions assignments, changes, switchs, replacements... I have a list including even the most improbable chances of hypothetical crews, but nobody's perfect!

By the way it's a pleasure to hear from you since "Deke!" is my astronautics Bible. I still remember the day I got it and almost compulsively began to read it looking for such amount of details I ignored and was avid of knowing. Sorry for missing that detail concerning Mattingly.

There is something (probably the only thing) that I haven't found there, or maybe I passed over it too: what happened to Tom Stafford after Apollo 10 and why he missed the chance of a lunar landing. I know he was the Chief of the Astronaut Office, but the same way he left it for the ASTP mission he could have done it before in order to walk the moon. But I guess that each thing has its time and Tom's ones were those.

By accepting the chief astronaut job, Stafford took himself out of the running for a flight assignment.  Like Borman and McDivitt, he could easily have had a landing... but chose to do something else.  Looking at it with decades of hindsight, and as observers rather than participants, it seems incomprehensible... who would turn down a lunar landing?  But all three of these men had been working almost without a break since late 1962, flying all over the country, spending weeks away from home and family.  Borman and McDivitt, in particular, have been fairly frank in expressing their awareness of the risks involved, too. 

(McDivitt was famous for saying, at one point, regarding the end of an astronaut's career:  "There are only four ways out: you get fired, you get grounded, you get killed.... or you pick the moment, and get out.") 

Stafford went through dangerous moments on each of his three flights to that time (the GT-VI pad abort, the risky spacewalk on GT-IX and various tense moments on Apollo 10).  He could do the math and figured that one of these times he would be on the wrong side of the odds.

Michael Cassutt

Offline billshap

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #13 on: 02/19/2013 01:26 am »
Michael,
Your reasoning makes perfect sense.  What changed Tom Stafford's feelings between mid-Apollo and ASTP?  Was anyone else given serious consideration as ASTP CDR (excluding Deke)?

Offline jossanest

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #14 on: 02/19/2013 08:28 am »
I always wondered why there was a complete set of official portraits (prime crew, backup crew, and prime & backup together) for several missions and only near-to-official ones for others.

Offline jossanest

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #15 on: 02/19/2013 08:29 am »
Thanks to grakenberg and obviously to Michael once again.

Billshap: I think of veteran pilots like Rusty Schweickart (backup CDR on Skylab) or simply Alan Bean, who was the backup ASTP CDR. And what about John Young, still on active service and later engaged on the Shuttle project? What I don't know is the right answer to your question concerning if any of them was ever considered for that rol.

Back to the crews' pics, I always wondered why there was a complete set of official portraits (prime crew, backup crew, and prime & backup together) for several missions and only near-to-official ones for others.
« Last Edit: 02/19/2013 08:51 am by jossanest »

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #16 on: 02/19/2013 02:35 pm »
Michael,
Your reasoning makes perfect sense.  What changed Tom Stafford's feelings between mid-Apollo and ASTP?  Was anyone else given serious consideration as ASTP CDR (excluding Deke)?

Why did Stafford push for an assignment to ASTP after stepping out of the flight rotation in spring 1969?  Circumstances changed: he had accepted the chief astronaut job knowing there was a good chance Shepard would return.  When Shepard did, in early 1971, Stafford become a deputy to Deke -- an interesting job, but not one with the authority of the chief astro position.  Later that year Stafford wound up attending the funeral of the Soyuz 11 cosmonauts, so that put him in contact with the Soviets -- and gave him a certain visibility within NASA.

His deputy flight crew ops job also involved him in ASTP discussions and planning.  By 1972, when the mission was formally approved, he knew he would be at NASA for several more years (astronauts military tours of duty were extended in three year increments), so suddenly ASTP looked like a unique opportunity, even though it involved learning Russian and entering a 2.5-year training cycle.

As for who else was considered?  For some time in 1972 Stafford's primary rival for the assignment was Dave Scott.  Fred Haise has said that Kraft raised the possibility with him, too, probably in summer 1972.  (The ASTP crew decision was Kraft's, not Deke's.  Deke had made his recommendation then recused himself.)

I don't believe that Bean or Schweickart were ever considered as prime crew commanders, especially since the NASA team had to be assigned in January 1973, when both astronauts were still heavily involved with Skylab.  Young was not a candidate that I've ever heard -- I'm pretty sure he was eager to get on with Shuttle work (as was Haise).

Regarding other crew positions, Stafford says that "every" unflown astronaut applied in some fashion -- and Swigert was definitely in the mix until the summer of 1972.

Michael Cassutt

Offline jossanest

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #17 on: 02/20/2013 08:59 am »
I mentioned Al and Rusty, as well as John Y. (and Fred was the same case), not taking in consideration the tempos of their involvement in other programs.

From the outside is difficult to have a clear schedule of crews'
assignments, training time, flights dates... Obviously a crew for a mission has to be assigned before other missions or programs finished.

About Dave and John S., even in the case they got a place, would have been fired after the stamps affair, that was known in the meanwhile, as was in fact John's case. 

So we get the answer: not only Tom was the only chance but, as Michael explained, he was also ready to go.

Offline Ben E

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #18 on: 02/20/2013 08:07 pm »
Michael,

What was Al Shepard's attitude toward flying again (or not) after Apollo 14?

He returned to the chief's job until early 1974 and I find it difficult to believe that he would have stayed so long with zero chance of another flight...and, if so, he'd have been too old to wait around for Shuttle. Would he have been interested in ASTP?

Thanks.

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #19 on: 02/20/2013 11:04 pm »
Michael,

What was Al Shepard's attitude toward flying again (or not) after Apollo 14?

He returned to the chief's job until early 1974 and I find it difficult to believe that he would have stayed so long with zero chance of another flight...and, if so, he'd have been too old to wait around for Shuttle. Would he have been interested in ASTP?

Thanks.

I have a clear memory of seeing Shepard on TV with Arthur C. Clarke -- probably during one of the last lunar landings -- joking about staying at NASA long enough to fly the Shuttle... and taking Arthur along.

Clearly a bit of humor -- and knowing that it's unfair to read the mind of another, I would put the chance that Shepard realistically thought about a third flight as zero.

Michael Cassutt

Offline Skylon

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #20 on: 02/20/2013 11:25 pm »
For Michael:

I got the impression, based on "Deke!", that Shepard may have gotten caught up in Kenny Kleinknecht's resignation, as he was serving as his deputy. Is this totally accurate, or did Shepard just see "greener pastures" in the business world, once 1974 rolled around and there was nothing in the pipeline for managing the Astronaut Office, but ASTP and Shuttle Development?

« Last Edit: 02/20/2013 11:26 pm by Skylon »

Offline dks13827

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Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #21 on: 02/21/2013 12:08 am »
My take on Stafford and ASTP is that Tom was very senior, experienced, a test pilot, etc.  A very high profile guy for a high profile international mission.  He also thought about running for political office at various times and that mission would not hurt his resume !  (  Ironically regarding risk is that the ASTP crew could have been very seriously injured, or worse, breathing hydrazine fumes not long before splashdown. )   
« Last Edit: 02/21/2013 12:31 am by dks13827 »

Offline dks13827

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #22 on: 02/21/2013 12:24 am »
Re:  Shepard flying again,  dont forget that he was our first man in space and then a moonwalker.  Nasa might not have wanted him to fly again (  like they did with Neil ).  And look at Haise and Joe Allen, for example, they left to make some money, finally,  and not work all those tough weeks, away from home,  training to fly.   Very understandable.
The shuttle guys in their books give pretty good clues as to their thoughts on the danger.  One flight is fantastic to get,  the second one is still pretty good.  The third one you start to worry a little about yourself and your family.   Always exceptions of course.

Offline Michael Cassutt

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Re: Apollo 11 Back-up Crew Photo
« Reply #23 on: 02/21/2013 03:52 am »
For Michael:

I got the impression, based on "Deke!", that Shepard may have gotten caught up in Kenny Kleinknecht's resignation, as he was serving as his deputy. Is this totally accurate, or did Shepard just see "greener pastures" in the business world, once 1974 rolled around and there was nothing in the pipeline for managing the Astronaut Office, but ASTP and Shuttle Development?


I don't think Shepard was "tainted" with the Kleinknecht business (and don't actually believe that Kleinknecht lost the FCOD job because of that).  Shepard left when he did because ASTP was the only manned flight on the schedule for the next five years (projected as of early 1974 -- we know it was even longer) and the astronaut office was being re-organized for development rather than operations.  He was 50 and it was a good time to pull the ripcord.

Michael Cassutt

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